 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Despite summer months making up 70% of business at La Sambuy, the ski resort will close both summer and winter operations
thats strange...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@turms2, a percentage figure doesn't tell you the absolute numbers though. Could be unprofitable in summer, and even more unprofitable in winter.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It usually is for most of us.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@valais2, if you read the fall line article it says: "It’s not just climate change that brings the end to ski resorts. Bad management making bad decisions, competition with bigger resorts, a lack of funds and high debt, and community rifts have caused the ski resorts to shut down."
Also doesn't appear to be all doom and gloom:
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But there’s also new life to be found in past ski resorts.
Puigmal in the French Pyrenees, which closed in 2013, was resurrected as Puigmal 2900 in 2021 as a green ski resort (capped skier numbers to reduce impact, sustainable snow making and grooming, sustainable lift powering…), while Innerkrems in the Nockberge mountains in Carinthia, Austria is reimagining itself as a centre for ski touring, snow tubing, biathlon (cross-country skiing and shooting), iceskating, dogsledding and ‘Latlshooting’.
The Italian village of Gaver, closed after the 2013-2014 ski season after a string of poor winters and financial decisions, has been given new life. The owner of the Blumon Break Hotel in the village has taken on Gaver ski area with its many north facing slopes, turning it into ski touring hub. Touring routes replace pistes and the local rental shop stocks touring skis and skins, while the Blumon Break stays open through the winter for visitors; A weekend here now can draw in over 1,000 people. |
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I spent a bit of time today researching the economics of the Alpine ski industry, as well as looking at Téléverbier as an example of a large ski business. And I found it difficult to see a clear pattern, if you allow for the regular variation you'd get in any business. There's a lot about the metrics of operating a ski domaine, but not so much about overall financial trends. Then if you look at Téléverbier, the figures are similarly hard to interpret, with a big hike in revenues and profits (even compared to pre-Covid years) but an apparent slight decline in other metrics commonly used to establish the health of a company.
One of the most interesting things I did come across in an analysis of the bookings for 2023-24 season was this comment:
'‘It was a shame that the British press made such a meal about the poor snow conditions experienced over the new year and beginning of January 2023. Their doom and gloom articles destroyed the end of season March/April holiday sales, which for the large part are made after the 01st January. Ironically the ski conditions in April 2023 turned out to be truly fantastic and the best they had been for years. Regular large snowfalls interspersed with beautiful sunny weather made for perfect ski conditions both on and off-piste.’ Alpine Answers Market Analysis 2023-24.
Which also knocked-on to reduce advance booking for the current 2023-24 season as well. For me, it reinforces the view that the British press has a stock template of doomsday articles on hand ready to exploit any period of poor conditions. And that this tends to suppress any informed analysis of genuine longer-term trends, insofar as if it's not observably catastrophic, then it's not worth covering.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 29-02-24 21:27; edited 1 time in total
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@Layne, indeed … hence the ‘but’…
It feels like there’s a lot of reorientation and market restructuring going on ..
Hopefully greener, hopefully of benefit to local communities …
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| LaForet wrote: |
For me, it reinforces the view that the British press has a stock template of doomsday articles on hand ready to exploit any period of poor conditions. And that this tends to suppress any informed analysis of genuine longer-term trends, insofar as if it's not observably catastrophic, then it's not worth covering.
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I think you could replace the underlined phrase with "anything" and you'd still be correct. A large proportion of the articles in the British press is now aimed at online clickbait factories and its steady decline into irrelevance/the sewer [delete as applicable] is reported every two weeks in "Street of Shame" in Private Eye.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@LaForet, very interesting … thanks.
And yes, as I mentioned in my other post, the doom and gloom editorial lines could be horribly self-fulfilling in deterring less committed and family skiers
I was approached by a journalist last year and gave a very upbeat and factual account of where the deep and worthy snow was, and full facts of the brilliant late skiing we have enjoyed in the last decade - journo interested … editor spiked it
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I read an article by the TV CEO a couple of years back saying they had doubled the revenue from Summer activities but it was still less than one good Winter weekend 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@BobinCH, …yikes!!!…
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@BobinCH, …do you have any insights into the economics of the Magic Pass? I assume the benefits to a resort come from restaurant income etc.
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| Quote: |
the ski conditions in April 2023 turned out to be truly fantastic and the best they had been for years
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This, of course, was also rubbish. April 2023 was only "truly fantastic" compared with the earlier part of the season, which was shocking in many places. I was in Les Saisies, which I know well, the week of 1 April 2023 and although it was wonderful to arrive, in the snow, on 1 April and have ALL my 8 grandchildren enjoying playing out in the few inches which by then were on the ground it was probably the worst week (in terms of number of slopes closed throughout the Espace Diamant) of all the 16 "first weeks in April" I'd spent there.
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You know it makes sense.
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@BobinCH and valais2 One of the stats I came across in my research was that four days of closure or minimal ticketing was equivalent to the entire bill for a season's water for snowmaking. This on the basis of seasonal average ticket revenue per day. Some other nuggets ....
Apparently there is a formula that's used - sometimes referred to by its author, a M.Abegg - that's called the '100 Day rule'. This says that a station/domaine is only viable commercially if 'it has at least 30cm of snow on the ground during, at least, 100 days within the ski season'. But while this has been a reasonable guide historically, there's a lot of discussion that it's a bit simplistic nowadays, and that viability has become a much more complex formula over recent years.
Another oddity is the number of days, on average, resorts open before Christmas - which is (this from memory, not notes) around 32 for Italy, 29 for Switzerland and only 7 for France.
Snowmaking during the season splits as: 45% Beginning / 22% Christmas / 30% Between school hols / 3% Other i.e. Alpine snowmaking is heavily biased towards laying a base ahead of the key Christmas and New Year weeks. But it's a delicate balance in most places between laying a good base and having enough water in reserve to handle snow shortfalls subsequently.
The distribution of expenses in snowmaking are: 37% Electricity /27% Maintenance / 24% Labour / 12% Water. So this is an activity that's particularly sensitive to electricity costs. which have been rising significantly of late, as we all know.
Staff costs have actually been decreasing as a proportion of expenses in the last ten years. But insurance costs have been steadily increasing.
Anyway, whilst all this is very interesting, I soon lost the will to live as more and more descriptive statistics emerged. The problem is in analysis and building a good model of what's actually happening in terms of resort economics. Which is where it starts to get difficult as the stats aren't necessarily normalised (i.e. consistent in what they represent, or collected in the same way etc). And you don't really get a lot of insight into just how companies like Téléverbier are performing in relation to the commercial environment in which they operate.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 29-02-24 21:25; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
formula that's used - sometimes referred to by its author, a M.Abegg - that's called the '100 Day rule'. This says that a station/domaine is only viable commercially if 'it has at least 30cm of snow on the ground during, at least, 100 days within the ski season'
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he's not Scottish then!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Origen wrote: |
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the ski conditions in April 2023 turned out to be truly fantastic and the best they had been for years
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This, of course, was also rubbish. April 2023 was only "truly fantastic" compared with the earlier part of the season, which was shocking in many places. I was in Les Saisies, which I know well, the week of 1 April 2023 and although it was wonderful to arrive, in the snow, on 1 April and have ALL my 8 grandchildren enjoying playing out in the few inches which by then were on the ground it was probably the worst week (in terms of number of slopes closed throughout the Espace Diamant) of all the 16 "first weeks in April" I'd spent there. |
Well that may have been true for where you were, but for the Verbier skiers the conditions were simple excellent, and all the way to the closing day (a fresh powder day).
Of course not all the lifts were running, there were very few skiers, not enough to need all the lifts, but all the skiing, top to bottom, was great.
As it is right now!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Regarding the British press, does it vary by newspaper? The Telegraph skiing section from 1 September onwards has a wealth of always positive articles on all things skiing. It only ever puts you in the spirit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
the ski conditions in April 2023 turned out to be truly fantastic and the best they had been for years
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This, of course, was also rubbish. April 2023 was only "truly fantastic" compared with the earlier part of the season, which was shocking in many places. I was in Les Saisies, which I know well, the week of 1 April 2023 and although it was wonderful to arrive, in the snow, on 1 April and have ALL my 8 grandchildren enjoying playing out in the few inches which by then were on the ground it was probably the worst week (in terms of number of slopes closed throughout the Espace Diamant) of all the 16 "first weeks in April" I'd spent there. |
It was a high altitude thing. In that first 10 days of April 2023 we found Val Thorens and 1850 had great conditions (from the late March blizzard), whilst Mottaret’s lower half was slush and St.Martin-de-Belleville was a tiny white stripe of manmade snow.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes. Les Saisies itself was pretty good but to suggest that conditions in the first week of April were "truly fantastic" is nonsense. They were poor in many places, just not as poor as earlier in the season.
You'd expect good conditions in the high altitude stations in early April. Nothing special about that. The fresh snow was a huge relief though, after such dismal conditions earlier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Snow&skifan wrote: |
It was a high altitude thing. In that first 10 days of April 2023 we found Val Thorens and 1850 had great conditions (from the late March blizzard), whilst Mottaret’s lower half was slush and St.Martin-de-Belleville was a tiny white stripe of manmade snow. |
I was in St M that week and that is not how I remember it at all. We had a fantastic week but the sunny weather had taken its toll by 7th April and they closed the Biolley.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Small resorts in the Valais were 7/10 I would say, nice late skiing with no one there and lots of birdsong ...
Better than it being 0/10
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There's a big push here for tourism to become year round (or at least winter/summer) here. Andorra has always had a lot of visitors all year round but out of the ski season these tend to be day/weekend trippers staying in Andorra La Vella. All of the villages are now doing much more. The ski areas are building more bike (e-bike) trails and keeping lifts open. There's lots of reasonable sized sporting events that bring lots of visitors too.
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| Layne wrote: |
@valais2, if you read the fall line article it says: "It’s not just climate change that brings the end to ski resorts. Bad management making bad decisions, competition with bigger resorts, a lack of funds and high debt, and community rifts have caused the ski resorts to shut down."
Also doesn't appear to be all doom and gloom:
| Quote: |
But there’s also new life to be found in past ski resorts.
Puigmal in the French Pyrenees, which closed in 2013, was resurrected as Puigmal 2900 in 2021 as a green ski resort (capped skier numbers to reduce impact, sustainable snow making and grooming, sustainable lift powering…),
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sure about that?
https://pistehors.com/SHzanI0B1g7SdbHchenE/highest-ski-resort-in-the-pyrenees-goes-bust
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@davidof, very interesting, thank you. You've not exactly been idle in the few weeks since you broke yourself. Enough rehab to get back on skis and a long, well-researched article. Lazy you are not. Chapeau!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Really interesting with a lot of historical stuff, thanks.
The late 80’s/90’s aridity from blocking highs with less extensive snow making was mentioned in an earlier thread, versus NW Atlantic heat taking control in recent times.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A big problem in France, with trying to attract more visitors outside the ski season is the French attitude to holidays. Their profitable summer season is only really four weeks, mid July to mid August. We have frequently been in the mountains in superb weather in late June or September, great for climbing, walking, or MTB, but everywhere is deserted, and most businesses shut. Until they can properly extend the busy summer period it's going to be very hard to make a profit from it.
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@davidof, good quality journalism.
I would not want to be in the commune meetings looking at the financial data - and seeing the impact of covid and the escalating cost of electricity.
I am
Doom 90
Gloom 5
Upbeat 5
Doom is based on the data
Gloom is based on human response
Upbeat is based on some mtb and other developments
Notably
Gilles Chabert, former president of the French Ski Schools Syndicate (ESF) has stated that “Skiing on its own is finished but without skiing, everything is finished.”
I’ll still be mountain biking, climbing and accessing the high snow. But I just can’t see where the funding for infrastructure investment will come from. As I said in a much earlier post, the liklihood is the Grom skinning past rusting lifts and saying ‘that’s how it used to be’….
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You know it makes sense.
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Value for money maybe has a part to play too. I'm fed up with the constant rising of prices and the lack of service, especially when I visit France....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Interesting article @davidof.
I wasn't quite sure what to make of the comment that contributions to ski resort costs from public finances were "at the end of the road". Further down there is an estimate that there is €6 skier spending in the local economy for each €1 paid on ski passes - which means around €20 for each €1 of public money. Well over €1 of that €20 will end up being paid in texes, though I don't know how much of it will reach the commune which is presumably the main source of public funding.
I can see that summer viability depends on the skiing, I can't imagine there is the same benefit except in terms of marginal spending (i.e. cost of additional running of lifts whose annual fixed costs such as maintenance have been met in the ski season).
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Poster: A snowHead
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It feels that climate change in the French alps is now having a similar affect to the UK in the late 1980s. 1988 seemed to be the turning point here after which the default snow line has seemed persistently above 800m. That seems to be the picture in France today, 30 yrs later, with the effective snow line there now above 1500m. Plenty of snow above that altitude but the temperatures are now marginal and snow making has not been effective at lower levels over the last two years.
Ticket receipts conversely have probably been good at the higher resorts and further east in the Alps where snowmaking has been more effective.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| valais2 wrote: |
Gilles Chabert, former president of the French Ski Schools Syndicate (ESF) has stated that “Skiing on its own is finished but without skiing, everything is finished.”
I’ll still be mountain biking, climbing and accessing the high snow. But I just can’t see where the funding for infrastructure investment will come from. As I said in a much earlier post, the liklihood is the Grom skinning past rusting lifts and saying ‘that’s how it used to be’…. |
I’m not sure that “Skiing on its own is finished but without skiing, everything is finished” statement. It seems self-defeating, and close minded.
If they improve the lifts, it will be used for mountain biking and hiking, which will be increasing when the non-snow-cover season gets longer. In the mean time, the lift can take skiers up higher to where the snow still remain. French people are retiring just like every other country. They will have to do something during their retirement. As they age out of skiing, they may use the lifts to get up to the cooler part of the region to walk, or just to escape the increase heat in the valley.
Of course, there’s no guarantee how the investment will be repaid, or repaid at all. But though there’s no data to support it either way just yet, common sense will suggest that if there’s less and less snow, people will be doing more and more non-snow related activities. It’s quite likely they would be doing some of those non-snow related activities in the mountain! With all those retirees milling about, they have to spend their money somehow!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 2-03-24 2:21; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The FACT is that there is a great deal of new building going in the bits of the French Alps which I'm familiar with. And not at high altitude. There are many reasons, other than skiing, why people might want to live and work, or take their holidays, somewhere beautiful!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Snow&skifan wrote: |
| Regarding the British press, does it vary by newspaper? The Telegraph skiing section from 1 September onwards has a wealth of always positive articles on all things skiing. It only ever puts you in the spirit. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/ |
Yes, but this is basically an online, subscription, skiing magazine. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s catering to people who want articles about ski holidays and Alpine property. With advertising from clothing and equipment manufacturers and up-market estate agents. No one paying to read it wants regular articles about how their favourite sport/holiday is threatened by global heating and fossil fuel pollution. In some ways, it’s more honest about its intent than regular newspaper articles about the Alpine ski industry that just copy-and-paste from a small portfolio of templates.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| Snow&skifan wrote: |
| Regarding the British press, does it vary by newspaper? The Telegraph skiing section from 1 September onwards has a wealth of always positive articles on all things skiing. It only ever puts you in the spirit. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/ |
Yes, but this is basically an online, subscription, skiing magazine. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s catering to people who want articles about ski holidays and Alpine property. With advertising from clothing and equipment manufacturers and up-market estate agents. No one paying to read it wants regular articles about how their favourite sport/holiday is threatened by global heating and fossil fuel pollution. In some ways, it’s more honest about its intent than regular newspaper articles about the Alpine ski industry that just copy-and-paste from a small portfolio of templates. |
Expanding this discussion, do French and Swiss newspapers/media have regular articles about climate change, lower winter snowfall, the rapid shrinking of glaciers and effect on ‘marginal’ ski resorts?
A lot of the stuff I’ve read online, sometimes through SH’s I think, is from Switzerland and France. Reliable sources or local officials, on news sites with the journalists narrative.
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| j b wrote: |
I wasn't quite sure what to make of the comment that contributions to ski resort costs from public finances were "at the end of the road". Further down there is an estimate that there is €6 skier spending in the local economy for each €1 paid on ski passes - which means around €20 for each €1 of public money. Well over €1 of that €20 will end up being paid in texes, though I don't know how much of it will reach the commune which is presumably the main source of public funding. |
Good analysis.
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We are going to France for two weeks, primarily to ski but if the conditions are poor will happily go hiking, it will still be beautiful and a healthy activity. Our resort spend in restaurants and bars (and maybe cinema) will actually be a bit a higher as we won't buy two weeks worth of lift passes and will try different restaurants instead.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm pretty pessimistic of the future of resort skiing as we know it in Europe. The trend does seem to be for much warmer temperatures, with rain events higher up. Perhaps just a blip, but time will tell.
I don't really see skiing ending. The higher resorts are probably going to be fine at least for a while. Although I'm sure their prices will continue to rise making it unaffordable for some/many.
Perhaps the Scandinavian resorts will thrive (they seem to have been less effected, but I can't say I've looked that closely). Maybe people will look further afield for their trips, or perhaps we will even have new resorts built - plenty of space in Alaska and northern Canada!
I do think we will see an increase in people touring too.
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It’s incredible that many in the wider public are in denial.
Who to believe, an academic with local knowledge, or idiots in politics or on social media?
The predictions are sadly proving correct.
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FAQ
