 Poster: A snowHead
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I thought the following excuse really took the biscuit, but someone actually tried it on me, a week or so ago in Arabba,
I, alpine snowboarder, was doing a regular S descent down a red at about 50km/h (taking 20% of the piste toward the middle).
A faster skier, at about 55km/h does his S descent, on the LHS of the piste such that his rightward extreme coincides with my blindside leftward extreme, and I notice his skis and imminent collision when he's about an inch away. Naturally I dig in, and increase my rightward evasion, but no matter, he's passed and gets to the bottom a tad before me.
So, noticing him in the same lift queue (he's all in black, with full body armour), I walk up to him and say "Hey! That was PRETTY BLOODY CLOSE you know...".
In response, he says (in German accent) that if there had a been a collision, it would have been my fault, because upon contact I would have been the uphill skier.
Yeah, because as he was going faster, upon contact, he would consequently be a microsecond further down the hill than me.
Talk about evading culpability!
With that kind of excuse, there was no point engaging in further argument.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not true. The downhill skier has right of way. It is the responsibility of the uphill skier, when starting his overtaking approach, to give sufficient room for you to manoeuvre.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Crosbie, like many clever dick pedants the dude was wrong. Here are the two rules from the FIS code - neither says that if you are fractionally downhill at a particular moment in time you automatically have no responsibility:
| Quote: |
Choice of route
A skier or snowboarder coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger skiers or snowboarders ahead.
Overtaking
A skier or snowboarder may overtake another skier or snowboarder above or below and to the right or to the left provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken skier or snowboarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movement. |
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, @Arno, YES, I know, but I just thought I'd post my encounter with someone who actually thought they'd get away with the skier's 'Chewbacca defense'.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Crosbie wrote: |
| (in German accent) |
This is a curious addition to the story... You feel perhaps that Germans have a habit of claiming other people's territory?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I like trotting out The Collision Regulations when this crops up.:
Rule 13 (Overtaking) d. Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
I had a similar near miss last year, in fact I think board and skis clipped one another. I was probably 2-300m down a straight "empty" piste doing exactly the same as you describe, came out of toeside carve and there he was; arms, legs and poles akimbo as he suddenly realised my cross-piste speed. I think he must have been straight lining, and daydreaming at the same time.
I always wear a back protector.
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@red 27, the German accent may indicate a tendency toward egregious focus on precision vs a more holistic perspective, but hey, let's not get hung up on stereotypes. 
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Good that it worked out OK.
Not sure about the "German accent", if you were in Austria or German-speaking Switzerland (even Dolomites) that wouldn't have been remarkable. Elsewhere you might have been blaming Dutch or Danish for your near miss. Doesn't really clarify our understanding.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@BoardieK, thanks for introducing me to Rule 13. Makes sense.
I wear no body armour (no helmet). I must always have uppermost in my mind the awareness that I am EXTREMELY vulnerable.
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@j b, the accent was notable to me, but sure, I doubt it was relevant to the incident - but, maybe it was...
but it probably wasn't.
:-}
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Amazing that you didn't see him coming with such acute awareness that it negates the need for a helmet.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Glosterwolf, sometimes, I cleave to the left of the piste in order to discourage fast skiers from descending past me on my blind side. I suspect other boarders do this too (depending on regular vs goofy).
But, anyway, I haven't yet mastered The Force such that I become aware of faster uphill skiers about to overtake me. Even so, when safe to do so, I will occasionally glimpse upslope to survey for such. Tricky doing this tho, when descending at grande vitesse.
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This reminds me of one “close encounter” I once had.
I ski in North America mostly. There maybe times slopes were crowded and we had to pass each other closely. But by and large, when the slopes are empty, people tend to give each other a lot of room. We yanks tend not to like to be in very close proximity of each other when we can avoid it…
But here I was in Keystone (or Breckenridge, or Winter Park, I forgot but somewhere in Colorado), the slopes were practically empty. I was just cruise casually down the slope, then came this guy, passing less than a foot next to me, when there were 10’ of space on either side of me!
I was startled, enough I took evasive movement. But he just went past as if I weren’t there. This wasn’t a beginner barely in control, nor a teenage straightlinging for the thrill of it. This was a guy who had decent technique, on decent snow condition, on an empty slope!
I noticed he was skiing towards a small group stopped not far ahead. Must be a few mates of his, all elderly gentlemen. I decided I want to take the risk have a word with him. I skied fast towards them. Stopped abruptly next to the group, which got their attention. I said hello, then politely said to the guy “you passed me very close, there’s no need for that, as the slopes were completely empty and you had all the space on either side of me”
It took the guy by surprised. It was one of his companion who replied, with a slight Italian accent “I apologize on his behave. You were right, that was too close”. He then turned to his companion and spoke in Italian. The guy who passed me then apologized in English, with an even heavier Italian accent. At which point, I said ”thank you and have a good day” and skied off.
As I was skiing away, I did wonder if it’s just a different etiquette and expectation between the 2 continents?
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You know it makes sense.
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Italians love to get their federation of artisan plumbers ski team suits on then pass you on the nearest before anchoring on right below you IME. No idea why.
Used to skiing flushes?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Awareness of skiers' code:
1) Ignorant of it, or reject it as an imposition upon one's liberty.
2) Partial recognition, with consequently bizarre notions, e.g. lateral collision becomes fault of slower=uphill skier.
3a) Full recognition, but, for whatever reason, do not apply it, e.g. incompetence, skiing beyond capabilities, etc.
3b) Observe it, but engage in malicious interference, e.g. 'brake check' overtake & stop/slow below.
4) Full recognition, and application, with conscientious consideration to all others.
The 'take away' is that it's dangerous out there.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I guess it could have been German banter?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I was skiing down the Chamois in AdH on Friday with a fair amount of fresh snow on hardpack. The light was very flat apart from a great big rock wall to provide contrast. It was crowded because a lot of lifts were closed by high winds, and I was skiing quite cautiously. A group of four male skiers - possibly Dutch from the accents but speaking English - managed to choreograph the following:
One turned above and ahead of me before the edge of the piste so that he was heading towards me and then fell over, so I checked slightly downhill
The second skied round him and stopped below so that he was facing towards me; at this point I need to slow and turn so I opted for a downhill stem christie, but as I started to turn...
The third skied just below me, fell over downhill and, in the process, whacked his flailing pole on the front of my helmet
The fourth stopped just behind me, so I was left in a wedge across the slope needing at least one of them to move
The explanation the third guy gave was "too much f***ing snow!" To their credit the two who were standing did immediately apologise and enquire after my well being. All I could think to say was "ski slower, guys". Needless to say they didn't.
Was that dangerous? Clearly. Fortunately the guy behind had enough control not to hit me. I would have been fine with any one or two of them: with three I had to stop; four it was out of my hands. However, they had no way of knowing that and they would have probably hurt someone who was no more competent than them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You should've spedup to 60kph.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| red 27 wrote: |
| Crosbie wrote: |
| (in German accent) |
This is a curious addition to the story... You feel perhaps that Germans have a habit of claiming other people's territory? |
Yes they do have that reputation. Three times in 70 years if I recall correctly 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The mention of German accent is no more questionable than many other recent comments about yobby Brits (e.g. in the recent poll about pole clicking) or endless derogatory generalisations about "the French". I'll add that the only yobby queue behavior I've seen on visits to Les Contamines was a big group of big Germans. Only Germans I'd ever been aware of in the area.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Skiing down a near empty piste in Verbier I became aware of a very "plus size" lady skiing matching S shapes to me, except she was on a converging course.
I ran out of space, tried to slow down...but so did she!
With an inevitability she converged...and whack!
Shoulder barged me.like a pro rugby player.
I went over...she went on.without a backward glance.
To be fair she was VERY " plus sized", it's quite possible that little me did not register on the Richter scale, just like a push bike and a lorry 
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| Peter S wrote: |
| red 27 wrote: |
| Crosbie wrote: |
| (in German accent) |
This is a curious addition to the story... You feel perhaps that Germans have a habit of claiming other people's territory? |
Yes they do have that reputation. Three times in 70 years if I recall correctly |
That's an implicit misrepresentation of the history of the Franco-Prussian war. Whilst there is a contended historical view about whether Bismarck manoeuvred France into doing so, France declared war to prevent the unification of Germany. The annexation of Alsace and Lorraine (Elsaß-Lothringen) was part of the treaty of Frankfurt at the end of the war and hardly a Prussian war aim. The transfer of lands as a result of an armistice and treaty after a war was hardly uncommon in the 19th century (and indeed the 20th).
The defeat and the downfall of the French Empire caused the revanchism movement, which contributed to the punitive (but in French and British eyes, wholly justified) nature of the Treaty of Versailles at the end of First World War. That in turn fed the rise of Nazism and thus the Second World War. (At least that's how I recall it from O-Level history: I am not a historian).
Those who learn the lessons of history are doomed to hear others make bad taste jokes about it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| You should've spedup to 60kph. |
That would hardly be "skiing cautiously" in those conditions on a crowded piste. You are suggesting that recklessness is the new caution, perhaps? That high speed collisions are generally better than low speed? (Yes I know that is sometimes true; it is not generally the case.)
PS. accelerating from say 10kph to 60kph pointing straight down the slope on a (say) 15° slope in the absence of friction or air resistance takes about 5.5 seconds: v=u+at where a=gsin(θ) therefore t=(v-u)/gsin(θ) where v-u=13.9ms⁻¹ and gsin(θ)=2.54ms⁻² (where velocity and acceleration are measured down the slope).
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Incidentally, the piste was clear below me - until the overtaking (near missing) skier ended up ever further away downslope. I was too focused on maintaining my control, composure, and course, to worry about anything else.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Skiing above Colfosco today on a short black run, I came close to the worst collision I’ve ever been involved in. The run is piste bashed, but churned up just now and the snow like glue today because it’s mild. I was skiing fairly cautiously, then like a bat out of hell a fast skier passed within cm’s. Issuing a bit of abuse ….. through shock?
At the bottom I felt obliged to make it clear that the skier behind must take care, more than once.
Turned out to be a tiny Italian woman, looked technically a far better skier than me.
Eventually she started saying “You’re absolutely correct”. Hopefully not sarcastically.
I don’t know who would’ve got hurt more? I probably weigh double and I’m robust  .
The entire piste is wide and just had 5 users. WTF.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 28-02-24 15:11; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sadly had a few similar scenarios in Italy. Close passes at high speed (with abuse) when there is a whole piste width beside me to pass. Just odd.
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@Crosbie, obviouslky I wasn't there but there with only one side of the story there are possible explanations where the skier did nothing really wrong. With goggles on your field of view is reduced compared to without. Say your horizontal field of view is plus minus 50 degrees from central but you are carving at 60 degrees from vertical across the slope then you ski into terrain that at that exact moment you can't see. Normally this isn't a problem as you will have seen the terrain a split second before but a skier travelling at the same speed as you at the same position along the slope can move into that space with neither of you having seen the other and a collision happen. This is much more likely to occur if one or both of you are on a snowboard (worst case is a regular snowboarder on the right and a goofy snowboarder on the left). You have a large blind spot on your left. Imagine that you and the skier was travelling at the same speed down the slope as you with him fractionally ahead of you. You can't see him because he's in your blind spot, he can't see you because he's fractionally ahead of you and his goggles will have restricted his field of view. He then skies more rightwards than on his previous few turns (or you move move slightly leftwards). A near miss, or collision, then occurs and both of you could truthfully believe yourself to be the downhill skier. This may be what he was saying when saying that he was the downhill skier and could now be moaning about Brit snowboarders on a German forum. Or he's just a d!ck who knowingly cut you up and then tried to claim innocence via a technicality
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You know it makes sense.
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@rambotion, he was going significantly faster, and no matter our relationship at the point of near miss, he was the overtaking skier and should have accommodated my use of the piste (he can't even use the 'unpredictable manoeuvre' excuse).
It is very difficult for me to see upslope behind me on my blind/backside (LHS of piste if looking downslope), or I would have gladly evaded him.
And, if a skier descending on the LHS hasn't bothered to analyse the regular S of another slower skier below and to his right, and is in his own dream world, then sure, he may be surprised that the RHS of his S just so happened to coincide with the LHS of that other skier's S just at the point that he's overtaking them.
Such near misses are understandable (given no-one's perfect), but what astounded me was the attempt to portray me as culpable - if a collision had occurred.
I suspect the case of two snowboarders (1 regular, 1 goofy) descending at roughly the same rate and style, without either of them recognising the existence of the other, blindside-to-blindside, is pretty rare - so rare, that any near miss or collision would be considered a celebratory occasion to sit down in the middle of the piste just past a brow, light up a spliff, have a natter and chill...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Crosbie, earlier you said that you were going approx 50km/hr and the skier 55 km/hr. I wouldn't call that significantly faster hence the explanation that you could have been sitting in each other's blind spots
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rambotion, My estimation of respective speeds should be assumed to be poor, compared with my estimation of who was overtaking who.
It's the first I've heard of skiers having blind spots such that they can't see a snowboarder below them on the piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Crosbie, /You have (wilfully?) misread my post. It is not skiers who have a significant blind spot of those below them, but snowboarders. What angle do you think your field of vision extends to over your left shoulder? I would be surprised if it was better than 45 degrees of your your left shoulder. That leaves a huge area for a skier (or snowboarder) to be in, downhill of you, who you can't see. Hence my suggestion that it is not impossible that the skier was the downhill slope user for a significant length of time before your collision, and he can hardly be expected to see you if you are uphill of him.
Sure, estimating speeds is difficult, but if you give two speeds that are within 10% of each other then it suggests that you think that the faster skier is only slightly faster, not significantly faster
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rambotion, it sounds to me like you've been to the same school as my near misser.
I guess, despite his average descending speed being significantly faster than mine, let's say 55&50km/h for argument's sake, making him the overtaking skier, you also entertain the notion that at the point his S and my S kiss each other, my downward speed could be 57km/h and his could be 55km/h, making me, momentarily, the uphill/overtaking skier, despite me having 50km/h downslope on average, and him having 55km/h on average.
It sounds like this kind of argument has already spread among certain skiers, who fancy using it as a culpability exemption. I daresay it will catch on... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I had this with another skier who overtook me on a cat track, but didn't get all the way past me and then skied over to the side of the cat track that disappeared into a steep edge down the mountain, except that I was between him and the bottom of the hill. I bailed (that or disappear to Kingdom Come), took him down, and his relentless swearing made it clear that I couldn't make him see that it was his fault. I'm somewhat more cautious now of people who are passing me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Accidents happen
Common sense is uncommon
Take a chill pill and enjoy your holiday
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Had an strange encounter on the BB. Day trip to Kronplatz. Was descending the new black alternative to Erta in St Vigilo.
Having just turned, I was moving to my right. Another skier (instructor) was moving left about 10ft below me. I turned to pass safely behind him, at which point he stopped and stuck his pole out, blocking my route. I adjusted further right, stopped below him and gave him a few choice words.
he claimed that I was required to leave 3m, and that I should not pass between him and his student  
If he hadn't stopped, there would have been 10m of space between us.
Said student was approx 30m behind him when I stopped.
Even if there was such a rule, how was I supposed to identify His student at that distance on a busy slope ffs?
My second, more sudden change of direction could easily have confused someone above me who intended to follow my route at a safe distance.
If I had been unable to avoid his pole, technically, as the uphill skier, I would have been responsible for any collision even though he deliberately stuck his pole in my way.
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@brianatab, that is indeed interesting.
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| brianatab wrote: |
| If I had been unable to avoid his pole, technically, as the uphill skier, I would have been responsible for any collision even though he deliberately stuck his pole in my way. |
Indeed. One must cater for the possibility that the skier downslope is a belligerent ESF instructor who may suddenly slam on their anchors and stick their poles out.
If only ESF instructors would do this in a lesson to their clients - who'd consequently become more aware of their responsibilities.
It's a bit like the emergency stop test in a driving lesson.
Trouble is, I guess too many ESF instructors would end up severely injured...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Crosbie, I believe Kronplatz is in Italy so I would imagine unlikely to have ESF instructors…
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| @Crosbie, I believe Kronplatz is in Italy so I would imagine unlikely to have ESF instructors… |
No one expect the Italian ESF!
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