 Poster: A snowHead
|
If not, your mouse will be pleased to introduce you.
His name is 'Cairngorm Funicular'. Here's the reason why, courtesy of The Scotsman. It's a sad thing, because I love the Cairngorm funicular, but the cost is really a bit silly in relation to the economic impact the railway is having on Aviemore and the Spey Valley (not much as far as I can see).
Here's the Cairngorm funicular, in case you haven't had a ride.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
How can that have cost £20million?? Our ski instructor in Val D'Isere said the La Daille one cost EUR 20 million, and the Tignes one EUR 30 million and they're both tunnelled through a mountain!! And they must be about 1km vertical descent!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
havnt read the details, but I'll have a guess.
Welcome to Britain, and British project management and its associated costs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
They could recoup a hell of a lot more and attract more visitors by allowing mountain bikes. but the MINBY's will be out in force to block that, I would expect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Incidentally 20M is the same amount of taxpayers money which is being spent on athletics provision for Wembley which will probably never be used.
Anyway it seems to me this whole fuss seems to be cooked up by a magazine with an axe to grind. 150,000 non skiing visitors sounds pretty good to me. Job creation in an area where jobs are difficult to come by and the taxpayer is getting the money back at 1/2 million a year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
On the same theme, it was announced this morning that two Scottish ski areas under combined ownership - Glenshee and Glencoe - are on the market. This report is on the BBC news site.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyone got a few quid to spare? It could become a snowheads project 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Elizabeth B, We must stop doing this 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
The reason why the Cairngorm funicular went so far over budget is examined in this updated report from The Scotsman.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I see what they're saying, but it still doesn't explain why it cost so much more than the larger projects in France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
It's a fair point. I remember interviewing the head of the Val d'Isere lift company when the Funival went into action and it actually bankrupted at least two companies during construction because of tunnelling complications etc. I seem to remember him telling me that they eventually put the whole project under their own direct management.
The Cairngorm funicular is actually most similar to the one up to Les Arcs, since they both run overland on pillars. So it would be interesting to know what that one (which is much longer than Cairngorm) cost.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
The Cairngorm funicular was always going to be a white elephant and I am still dumbfounded as to why it was built. It pains me to say it but the Scottish resort ski industry is doomed and all will follow Glencoe over the next 5 - 10 years. Certainly the industry will be dead and buried long before the funicular is paid off.
I spent the day at Cairngorm in Jan of this year and the old chair lift, which was replaced by the funicular, offered quicker access to the summit (albeit there wasn't a force 10 blowing that day) without the requirement of an overpriced ticket and having to remove and carry planks and poles.
W.R.T cost - surely its all about the economy of scale. Alpine expenditure on uplift install and service significantly exceeds that of the UK and thus they'll get better discounts on such projects.
Also, we (UK) are poo-poo at project management, planning, costing, budgeting etc.. (The Dome, Wembley, Hampden park, Jock (joke) parliament building etc.....) so it's not surprising that this little project went 40-50% over budget.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Boardski. Just a couple of technical quibbles. The funicular is far faster to the top than the old chair, and the old chair was 'sideways-on' (and an early form of 'detachable') and did require skis off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Sir G, I do recall the chair being side on as the bitter cold wind was invariably straight in your face and most uncomfortable. I don't recall having to take my skis off but you are no doubt correct in this.
As for the speed of the lift - having queued(waited) for the funicular to arrive, load and depart I would suggest that the chair was indeed quicker than the funicular.
Either way it still cost a wad of cash that will never be repaid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Here's the old Cairngorm chairlift, which did 40 years valiant service, since it was built in 1961. May she rust in piste. The operators sold each double chair for £50 as I recall, so you might find one in an unexpected location (swinging from a palm tree on a tropical island?) sometime.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Project management in Europe. - The aim is to get things built and completed and operational.
Project management in Britain. - The aim is to line as many pockets of suited wannabees as possible, especially if its from the public purse.
I see it all the time in my work, and Boardski mentions a few prime examples in the construction industry. Then think of Nimrod MR4, Eurofighter, Army radios etc in the defence sector.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Boardski wrote: |
| The Cairngorm funicular was always going to be a white elephant and I am still dumbfounded as to why it was built. |
If you read this week's Economist they suggest that the whole thing was a bit of a scam to line the pockets of interested parties from hotel groups in Aviemore (what a dump) to the construction company whose chairman was also on the board of the HIE. After the Scottish parliament debacle and various scams involving councils around the Glasgow area it seems like the country is riddled with corruption.
I like the HIE chairman Jim Hunter who said you 'couldn't predict the weather'. I guess he never read all those global warming articles in the early 1990s then and made the connection with erm warming and erm skiing? He also confuses climate with weather. Idiot. He should be fired.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
Project management in Europe. - The aim is to get things built and completed and operational.
|
I'd believe that of the Germans and the Swiss, but the Italians and the French, with apologies to our French and Italian SnowHeads. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
you only have to look at the French roads and railways to realise how the French get things done. And Airbus, and the 1998 World Cup with all its stadia. Then theres Queen Mary 2. And Rafale. And Catia. The list is probaly endless
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| sherman-maeir wrote: |
If you read this week's Economist they suggest that the whole thing was a bit of a scam to line the pockets of interested parties from hotel groups in Aviemore (what a dump) to the construction company whose chairman was also on the board of the HIE. After the Scottish parliament debacle and various scams involving councils around the Glasgow area it seems like the country is riddled with corruption.
|
It's also clear, if you read the Economist article, that it is written by somebody with a rather large axe to grind. For starters 3.5 million of the cost was buying some of the existing infrastructure. Thus the HIE now own the funicular and the infrastructure around it. Cairngorm rent it back from them at 1/2 million quid a year. Thus unlike many public/private partnerships in Britain the taxpayer will eventually get the money they have put in back.
I'm not sure when you say the country is riddled with corruption if you mean Scotland or Britain. I have to assume you mean Scotland since all the examples that you give have occured in Scotland. I suggest you look at what's happening elsewhere before you single out Scotland for attack. The Government (at all levels) is jumping into bed with private companies and getting royally shafted in most cases. A non Scottish example if you will. South West trains made 38 million pounds profit last year (despite still running slam door trains that there original bid for the franchise said would be taken out of service long before now). The Government paid them 50 million quid in subsidy. So the taxpayer is shovelling most of that money into the pockets of Stagecoach shareholders.
| sherman-maeir wrote: |
I like the HIE chairman Jim Hunter who said you 'couldn't predict the weather'. I guess he never read all those global warming articles in the early 1990s then and made the connection with erm warming and erm skiing? He also confuses climate with weather. Idiot. He should be fired. |
You've also failed to notice that in order to stay profitable Cairngorm (and indeed Nevis Range and The Lecht) are attempting to turn themselves into year round attractions. The funicular had 150,000 non skiing visitors last year. At any other attraction 150,000 visitors would be successful and would be praised rather than damned as a waste of money.
The problems with Glenshee and Glencoe (Glencoe especially) is a failure to diversify. Skiing and boarding in Scotland isn't easy and winters like last year emphasise the point that the companies running the mountains can't simply rely on income from skiers and boarders. What's needed is diversification. What isn't needed is a blinkered one eyed report from somebody who quite obviously has an axe to grind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Lager wrote: |
| What's needed is diversification. What isn't needed is a blinkered one eyed report from somebody who quite obviously has an axe to grind. |
Well I'm not sure that I view 150,000 summer visitors as a success given the sensitive nature of the site, even if they are allegedly 'roped in'.
Personally I think it is vitally important to have a free press that investigates projects like the Cairngorm funicular.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
sherman-maeir, so success would be no visitors then 
I'd disagree: if you build it, I presume you want people to come. To build it and then hope no one will pay to use it is illogical.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
> sherman-maeir, so success would be no visitors then
success would not have been building it in the first place as a lot of people campaigned for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Understand your point, but what now?
Promote as much use as possible to recoup some money and help local economy, or hope it goes belly up like the other resorts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| sherman-maeir wrote: |
success would not have been building it in the first place as a lot of people campaigned for. |
If it were left to enviromental campaigners we wouldn't be allowed to ski or board anywhere though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
[quote="Lager"]
| sherman-maeir wrote: |
If it were left to enviromental campaigners we wouldn't be allowed to ski or board anywhere though. |
Did I say anything about enviromental campaigners? I objected to it on the grounds that it would be a great big white elephant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Lager, Job creation is a great thing. However, I think most of the jobs created in Aviemore (as well other ski resorts) have gone to English/Aussies/Kiwis/Saffers. I don't mind, but I think a lot of locals aren't too impressed!
As for the cost - well, look what happened to Holyrood. That's exactly the sort of mess you get into when you let governments (especially insignificant, relatively powerless ones) manage budgets. Private the treasury, I say!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
And the Italian railway system is excellent. Whereas the last few times I took a journey on DB from Frankfurt to Kronberg, the trains were regularly delayed and cancelled. Looked like Connex have been advising!
In terms of manufacturing, everything in the EU is evening out: VW are becoming less reliable, Fiat are becoming (slowly) more so. Renault and Peugot are, of course, still more interested in appearance than anything else...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I used to frequent Cairngorm in the 80s and early 90s but haven't been back for over 10 years. Must say that when I first heard that a funicular was going to be built I immediately thought that it would be, as the title of this discussion, a white elephant.
Am I surprised that it cost a lot more than planned, No. Mismanagement of the project aside in my view it was simple a ill-conceived idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
White elephant - Something requiring much care and expense and yielding little profit; any burdensome possession. [Slang] (From Websters dictionary).
CML are renting it for just over 1/2 million quid a year. It has 150,000 non skiing visitors a year. I reckon that means you need just over 3 quid from each visitor to have it pay for itself. Hardly something that yields little profit then, since most people can surely see that visitors will spend a hell of a lot more than 3 quid. Especially since that 20million building cost includes things like the restaraunt and daylodge. Even when you exclude the skiers and boarders the business model looks fine to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Lager. That's a rather disingenuous argument. The issue is not the great deal that CML are obtaining. The issue is the £20 million expenditure of public funds on the project.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Lager. That's a rather disingenuous argument. The issue is not the great deal that CML are obtaining. The issue is the £20 million expenditure of public funds on the project. |
Perhaps if people would stopped using the phrase white elephant it might help. It's quite clear that whatever you think about it, the funicular is not a white elephant. It's used extensively year round and is making a tidy little sum of money.
The question of whether the public purse should have been used to fund the development is a completely different matter. There are a few things in it's favour though. Firstly the funicular and it's associated buildings are now owned by the public. Therefore the rent from CML for the use of the funicular can be used for other publicly funded activities. Compared with the deal the public normally gets when it deals with private firms (I'm thinking railways, PFI and the rest) it looks like a good deal. But the proof of the pudding would be an independent report assessing the economic benefits (or otherwise) of the funicular. In the meantime I'd file the Economist report in the bin where it belongs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But for a proper commercial return on the investment CML should be paying more like £2M p.a. not £0.5m, so why the "discount"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| masopa wrote: |
the last few times I took a journey on DB from Frankfurt to Kronberg, the trains were regularly delayed and cancelled. Looked like Connex have been advising!
|
It was like that 10 years ago when I lived in Germany. Funny you mention Connex (a French company). They have the franchise to run trains on some of German's railways. Maybe you were on a Connex train?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
sherman-maeir, I obviously wrote that in jest and am shocked to find that it may have some truth in it! Perhaps it was a Connex train after all - my friend who lives out there was stunned by the delay (although to be fair, he doesn't often use the trains/trams though) and was convinced it was a one-off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
when you hear statements about the policy of the Ramblers with regard to the funicular on Cairngorm, it is in fact the policy of Dave Morris at head office, who completely ignores the opinions of the Badenoch and Strathspey group of the Ramblers, (in whose area the funicular is located) but is happy to use their subscriptions to fund his purely personal campaigns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
The Germans are no better than the French at actually getting anything done, they do seem to have good national PR which is why you think otherwise.