 Poster: A snowHead
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https://www.20minutes.fr/societe/4079770-20240306-montagne-quoi-histoire-faux-moniteurs-pistes-ski
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brightly colored jumpsuit, sunglasses, skin marked by UV rays at altitude, not to mention a group of people still in snowplows trying to follow behind... The description leaves no doubt: here is the typical (and very cliché) profile a ski instructor. And yet…
for several years, some have been practicing the profession without having the required qualifications. These “fake instructors” often offer their lessons at knockdown prices on online platforms.
“On the ground, it’s easy to spot them,” says Éric Brèche, president of the National Union of French Ski Instructors. They necessarily avoid wearing a red sweater because they know that it is a marker of the ESF [the French ski school, which represents 85% of the winter sports learning offer]. And above all, among professionals, we spot them quite quickly on the slopes. »
He adds: “We are in a regulated profession, with significant security issues, so it is imperative to hold a recognized diploma which allows you to teach for pay. Beyond the quality of the lesson received, students may find themselves in difficulty in terms of insurance if something happens to them. »
To deal with this problem, the mayor of Courchevel, Jean-Yves Pachod, opted to award medals to real instructors so that they are more easily recognizable by customers. At the same time, checks are carried out every year on the slopes.
Since the start of the season, in the Savoie resort, “less than ten false monitors have been spotted out of more than 180 people inspected,” confides Christian, an independent professional. “In reality, what really poses a problem for some is the presence of foreign instructors in the stations. In recent weeks, it has become war,” he assures.
The professional evokes “jealousy” because colleagues from neighboring countries, “who have every right to teach in France because they have passed the tests – unlike fake instructors – do not pay Urssaf fees” . They are then considered “false instructors” by certain instructors, despite their training and the granting of recognition from the French State to practice. According to him, the problem is not really new, but tensions increase “during slow periods”, as currently with the end of the school holidays.
“It saddens me because it creates an unpleasant climate to the point where certain vehicles registered abroad are damaged,” he explains. Similar things happened when certain people broke away from the ESF to create independent structures or when English colleagues arrived. It’s really a shame…”
The president of the union confirms that it is indeed “the major current problem on the ground” which “creates animosity”. “I alerted the government to this issue, warning that tensions were increasing in the mountains and that there was a need to take concrete measures,” he said.
Éric Brèche confirms this “growing feeling of discrimination” among French instructors compared to those “exempt from social and tax charges in our territory”. He compares the situation to that of taxis and uber. “There is an impression of unfair competition because of a vagueness which could jeopardize the entire activity of French instructors. » If nothing is done and “everything remains in these conditions”, he fears a “disintegration of organized structures” and that, at some point, “it will be completely chaotic on the ground”. |
https://lasavoie.lemessager.fr/649313563/article/2024-03-08/stations-de-ski-pourquoi-tant-de-moniteurs-exercent-ils-illegalement
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Faced with the influx of tourists in the ski resorts, the Prefect of Savoie initiated, on February 13 in Courchevel, a vast operation to control ski instructors. Of the 45 monitors checked, a third were foreign nationals. Six were prosecuted.
This situation reflects a crisis in the profession: ski schools are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit instructors.
“Training too long? »
“We have an influx of high-potential clients, but not enough instructors. This hampers tourism. I refuse clients in all my Oxygène schools, throughout the winter season, explains Pierre de Monvallier, director of Oxygène Ski & Snowboard, whose 280 instructors are present in 25 ski resorts, including many in Tarentaise (Courchevel, Val d'Isère, La Plagne, etc.).
And continues: “There are more instructors retiring than new arrivals. However, an instructor can earn between 25 and 30,000 euros gross per season, and at the end of their career this can reach 70,000 euros, or even more. But it is a very long training. I have the example of one of my instructors who took twelve years to obtain it, so many young people give up along the way. Every year there are about 500 graduates, but then only half teach. The local children take the diploma, obtain it and then continue their studies, without joining a ski school. They take the place of other potential candidates. »
“I hope to recover the monitors coming from the lower stations”
A recruitment difficulty also noted by Armand Hamel, director of the French Ski Schools (ESF) in Plagne Centre, Plagne Village, Plagne Soleil and Plagne 1800, i.e. 177 “red sweaters”.
He also admits to having difficulty recruiting since covid: “Here, the problem is housing. The instructors will work wherever they find accommodation. For the future in Tarentaise, I am rather calm. There is a lot of customer carryover from lower stations, but all stations are facing a shortage of instructors. I hope to get the instructors back from the lower stations, but they may not want to change their place of living all year round...”.
The shortage favors the arrival of instructors, some of whom come from Italy.
Contrary to popular belief, ski school directors look favorably on the Prefect's controls. “For me, there are two important points: instructors who are not in compliance with their diploma level, and those who engage in unfair competition by not declaring anything in France,” explains Armand Hamel, director of the ESF of La Plagne. As a French ski school, we give our files to the State. 40 to 50% of the fees collected are charged (Urssaf, retirement, taxes, etc.). » “As for foreign instructors, we do not know if they declare themselves and in which country,” laments the manager.
The shortage favors the arrival of instructors, some of whom come from Italy, in order to fill the gaps and meet the growing demand of a wealthy clientele.
“Some hotel concierges are willing to hire anyone to satisfy their customers. Customers with exceptional purchasing power pay into a foreign account or in cash, for example 600 to 700 euros per day for Brazilian customers. But what about the charges? An instructor can be registered with Urssaff and declare little. »
“I know the subject well, several of my instructors have become independent. There are also online ski lesson sales sites, such as SkiBro or Maison Sport, which employ instructors. Then, we do not know if these incomes are identified by Urssaf. All this creates a distortion,” adds Pierre de Monvallier, director of Oxygène Ski & Snowboard. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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not to mention a group of people still in snowplows trying to follow behind
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this was also apparent in the 3valleys in the 90's, but this was generally an old, fat, local geezer in an ESF suit who seemed to have some kind of "grandfather" right to instruct, and would be seen on the mountain with a group of 14 or 16 beginners to himself, snaking behind him at a snail pace, whilst he was smoking a Gauloises 
there used to be one such instructor in Meribel that fitted this bill, he also worked at the old plantin restaurant of an evening, where we took our clients on staff evening off, think he was the owners 2nd cousin twice removed by marraige 
there was always ongoing wars between the ESF and tour ops in the resort in the mid 90's, as most of the T/O's used magic in motion ski school (the only other choice at the time, apart from half a dozen independent instructor), due to the restrictions put in place to instruct in france.
A lot of the ESF instructors took umbrage to the T/O ski companions as they assumed we were taking prospective students away from them, even though our company stated that you needed to ski red runs confidently to be shown around the mountains.
one of our companions was beaten up by an ESf instructor in the chaudanne car park one day because of this. problem was, he drove soft top sports car, and needless to say after this, his car was permanently exposed to the elements after this, but no one knows who the culprit was
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I know in Courcheval it is an issue this season apparently!
However slight embellishment of the truth from Pierre D M there - I used to work for him and he does like to coat it with some BS sometimes!
However what is true is that I have only ever been controlled on the mountain twice in 17 years - the second time was last week!
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This seems to be a continuation of an old row. Is there anywhere where "outside" ski instructors are free to ply their trade without any local control/accreditation? If I want to charge people to come for a ride on my boat in the UK there is whole load of quite onerous regulatory requirements and qualification I must fulfil. Whether I am setting out to instruct them, or not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Always a drama in France . . . not very 'liassez faire' of them
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 9-03-24 22:23; edited 1 time in total
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Where is it not a drama, @Belch? Do you know the answer to my question?
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@Origen, Not with certainty no! I'm sure it exists in most resorts and in most countries . . .to what extent I've no idea. I do know (from my sisters experience as an Austrian instructor) most ski schools are on a tight budget and have a mix of perm / seasonaires / bank staff to manage the season and at peak periods this can include a lot of instructors so it doesn't feel like they're losing out exactly should the 'odd' cowboy tread on their toes . .
I remember my mum having lessons in Verbier in the 80s with a youthful Ozzie doctor who was on a sabbatical; best private lesson(s) she ever had . . .
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| Origen wrote: |
| Is there anywhere where "outside" ski instructors are free to ply their trade without any local control/accreditation? |
Here in CH there are no national requirements for qualifications, an applicant’s suitability for the job is solely at the discretion of the ski school director. However, in practice it is highly unlikely that a non-local would get such a job without formal qualifications.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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But if someone just went and set up as an individual, @telford_mike? Not with a local ski school.
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@Origen, possibly Norway but you always need someone to insure you for 3 party liability. It would seem this could be pretty much left to insurers to regulate tbh. No insurance, no worky.
@Steve Angus, seems to concern different resorts each year. before Covid it was Polish instructors in Serre Chevalier arriving with Tour Operators; which, depending on qualifications, may have been legal but the locals didn't think so
One thing the French could do is improve both customer service and language skills, particuarly English, rather than fixate on competing a competition course in a set time. Just to add I've generally had good experiences with French instructors and I admire their ski skills.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Origen wrote: |
| But if someone just went and set up as an individual, @telford_mike? Not with a local ski school. |
Completely different scenario, which would mean forming a company, with all that is entailed in that (a lot of formalities). This would be far too difficult for a casual travelling instructor, particularly a foreign one. At the very least, you need a residence permit, which is a pretty high bar in itself. Still no requirement for skiing qualifications, though if you didn’t have any, you’d be very unlikely to attract any clients.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So it looks as though other places have similar approaches to France? Fairly closed shops?
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| Origen wrote: |
| So it looks as though other places have similar approaches to France? Fairly closed shops? |
The effect is the same, but the method is different. In France, the government seem to make the rules via legislation, and if you transgress you’ll end up in court. Here it’s left to people who actually know what matters - ski school directors mainly. As has been mentioned above, an inability to get third party insurance (and lots of paperwork) keeps the charlatans out. It works pretty well. Mrs t_m (with international qualifications) has worked for a ski school here for years, but I think that in France the 'closed shop' that you refer to would probably keep her out (not that she's ever tried).
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You know it makes sense.
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It’s been going on for years.
Very late 80’s or early 90’s didn’t the ESF persuade the Gendarme to arrest a whole bunch of British instructors. Hourmont / SkiBound at the time being one of the ones with their own teams of instructors.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The French system generally is very bureaucratic - not just skiing. But bureaucracy isn't a dirty word! Being a bureaucrat (albeit long retired!) I like clear rules and - above all - everybody treated the same. I think I would rather take my chances with a bunch of rules which, arguably, demand silly qualifications, than being "in with" the local ski school director or the maire (though lots of things in France are much easier if you ARE in with the maire). There are quite a few British owned ski schools in France. How many are there in the other Alpine countries? The thread about Simon Butler (BASS Megeve) went on for years.
If a whole lot of Polish instructors arrived in the Arlberg with tour operators I suspect they'd be sorted out pretty quick. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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There have been controls on the slopes in La Plagne this february as well. Thanks for sharing the article!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The ESF have alwaysa been ultra protectionist. It took a massive fight and court case for Jean Eves to set up Ski Cocktail in Meribel in the very late 1980s. IIRC it went to the equivilent oir supreme court. Magic in Motion were born out of Ski Cocktail.
The ESF are in breach of EU legislation regulalry with their protectionism.
All non-French wannabe intructors were put through the same race as part of the equivilence, with a top racer setting the time. To pass you had to finish within a percentage of that time.
The French instructors were always given a slow racer so never failed that element.
You do usually see most French qualified instructors displaying their 'medal' on their ski jacket.
The guiding offered by TOs was a separate issue, but again the ESF felt they were stealing clients way. There was a potential solution that could have made the ESF money but they didn't want to think of it. It also didn't help that so many Brits who needed lessons when out with the TOs guides.
I'm sure @terrygasson would recognise that too many Silver Skiers, for example, used the guides when they should have had a lesson or 5.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@JDL65,
The were described as 'Ski hosts' not 'Ski guides'.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@JDL65,
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It also didn't help that so many Brits who needed lessons when out with the TOs guides.
I'm sure @terrygasson would recognise that too many Silver Skiers, for example, used the guides when they should have had a lesson or 5.
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there were definitely a few guest who used the host/companions services instead of having lessons, but they were gently reminded after a couple of days at the latest that they should be capable of skiing reds competently, and if they didn't take notice generally a polite word to their friends/partners would do the trick.
or you find a more difficult run to take them on
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kenzie wrote: |
@JDL65,
The were described as 'Ski hosts' not 'Ski guides'. |
Incorrect. They were ski guides. When that became contentions, they became hosts, then they were banned completely.
I know because being a ski guide was part of my dutues for 4 or my 5 seasons.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| terrygasson wrote: |
@JDL65,
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It also didn't help that so many Brits who needed lessons when out with the TOs guides.
I'm sure @terrygasson would recognise that too many Silver Skiers, for example, used the guides when they should have had a lesson or 5.
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there were definitely a few guest who used the host/companions services instead of having lessons, but they were gently reminded after a couple of days at the latest that they should be capable of skiing reds competently, and if they didn't take notice generally a polite word to their friends/partners would do the trick.
or you find a more difficult run to take them on |
Couloir de Belges in 1850 was my go to. It was a red, just!
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| Quote: |
All non-French wannabe intructors were put through the same race as part of the equivilence, with a top racer setting the time. To pass you had to finish within a percentage of that time.
The French instructors were always given a slow racer so never failed that element
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 nice comforting theory, @JDL65.
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| JDL65 wrote: |
| Kenzie wrote: |
@JDL65,
The were described as 'Ski hosts' not 'Ski guides'. |
Incorrect. They were ski guides. When that became contentions, they became hosts, then they were banned completely.
I know because being a ski guide was part of my dutues for 4 or my 5 seasons. |
Who did you work for?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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one of the ski guides we had, long ago, with Ski Olympic in La Rosiere told us that when the vis was really bad, and nobody would spot us, he was happy to give us some "hints and tips" on improving our skiing.
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@Origen, curiously and sadly one of the Olympic Guides was a guy called Simon Atkinson who eventually ended up being the Director of the ESF in La Rosiere. Simon passed away with cancer a few years ago. I knew Simon back in the 80s in the Aire Valley.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Kenzie wrote: |
| JDL65 wrote: |
| Kenzie wrote: |
@JDL65,
The were described as 'Ski hosts' not 'Ski guides'. |
Incorrect. They were ski guides. When that became contentions, they became hosts, then they were banned completely.
I know because being a ski guide was part of my dutues for 4 or my 5 seasons. |
Who did you work for? |
Same as Terry for 3 seasons (Silver Ski) and then 2 seasons with Ski Out of the Blue (1990-95), in Meribel
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
one of the Olympic Guides was a guy called Simon Atkinson who eventually ended up being the Director of the ESF in La Rosiere. Simon passed away with cancer a few years ago
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ESF trying to protect their 85% monopoly.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, in most of the well-known resorts in France there are a number of ski schools to choose from as well as independent instructors. And big areas will have several different ESFs, too.
It's far from a "monopoly" but as the majority of skiers in France are French (surprise!) and the ESF is generally the cheapest option, and the one which lots of French people grew up with, their prominence is hardly surprising.
It's reasonably competitive, and anyone who disapproves of the ESF has plenty of options. Ski instructors are fairly paid and can make a decent sort of living. How is it for instructors in the US, @Whitegold?
Alpine skiing, overall, is a very competitive market. Lots of countries and probably thousands of resorts to choose from.
But some people will find things to complain about.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Are ESF still in breach of EU law?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Origen wrote: |
| The French system generally is very bureaucratic - not just skiing. |
If you want to teach any sport in France you need a carte pro and almost certainly some onerous qualification process, probably involving some kind of arcane test (civil servants love tests).
In general, teaching sports in France is really aimed at people who've been practising that sport within a club since childhood; or who are very sporty and do PE then a degree in sports science. You would be expected to have around 500 hours of study as part of that process... obviously more if you do a degree in sports.
Just for comparison. I read that a UK degree is approx 1200 hours per year (I assume that includes self study?), I would say that my degree was around 40 hours per week over 40 weeks. A year of a French prepa is around 3000 hours of intense academic study if anyone likes educational masochism.
You can actually coach in France 1:1 as a personal coach without a carte pro (yes there are always loopholes in France) but there are some tight rules around it. This would allow, for arguments sake, Annabel Croft to coach your backhand at the Hotel Raducanu at St Tropez on a tennis camp without Annabel having to go through the Carte Pro process.
--- edited to replace the word teach with coach, teach was the wrong word
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 17-03-24 23:03; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I read that a UK degree is approx 1200 hours per year (I assume that includes self study?), I would say that my degree was around 40 hours per week over 40 weeks.
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Yes, 120 credits a year where each credit is 10 learning hours including assessment and self learning. In practice it is much less than that as many students are now working full time to fund their studies and university administrators realise they can cut costs by teaching less. Oddly, though the students are paying high fees they never complain about how little they are taught but moan about it being too much.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
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I read that a UK degree is approx 1200 hours per year (I assume that includes self study?), I would say that my degree was around 40 hours per week over 40 weeks.
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Oddly, though the students are paying high fees they never complain about how little they are taught but moan about it being too much. |
Too much study or too much in cost?
(Sorry, it’s not clear to me. It maybe very clear to all the others)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| JDL65 wrote: |
| Kenzie wrote: |
| JDL65 wrote: |
| Kenzie wrote: |
@JDL65,
The were described as 'Ski hosts' not 'Ski guides'. |
Incorrect. They were ski guides. When that became contentions, they became hosts, then they were banned completely.
I know because being a ski guide was part of my dutues for 4 or my 5 seasons. |
Who did you work for? |
Same as Terry for 3 seasons (Silver Ski) and then 2 seasons with Ski Out of the Blue (1990-95), in Meribel |
Ah-before I was aware of ski hosts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Aleutian wrote: |
| Are ESF still in breach of EU law? |
I suspect every EU law includes a clause 'Except France'
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the French have being breaking the law on this for years.... simon butler etc etc..... even when basi level 2's could teach across the rest of Europe pre Brexit, France was the exception and they literally dont give a hoot....... a lovely place to visit but you wouldn't want live there
on the teaching front, my advice would be anyone else before esf...... massive class sizes, very little tuition, in some cases no tuition...... glorified baby sitters......."follow me"
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[quote="davidof"]https://www.20minutes.fr/societe/4079770-20240306-montagne-quoi-histoire-faux-moniteurs-pistes-ski
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brightly colored jumpsuit, sunglasses, skin marked by UV rays at altitude, not to mention a group of people still in snowplows trying to follow behind... The description leaves no doubt: here is the typical (and very cliché) profile a ski instructor. And yet…
for several years, some have been practicing the profession without having the required qualifications. These “fake instructors” often offer their lessons at knockdown prices on online platforms.
“On the ground, it’s easy to spot them,” says Éric Brèche, president of the National Union of French Ski Instructors. They necessarily avoid wearing a red sweater because they know that it is a marker of the ESF [the French ski school, which represents 85% of the winter sports learning offer]….
Answer:- This is good that he has claimed red on the slopes for French Instructors but yet again as befits to his climbing of the greasy pole that is undignified as is the position one has to maintain of obviscation and denial in order to occupy the top in the face of reason he fails to mention who the French are. The French are our brothers but this Monsiure is clutching at straws if he takes salvation that “non French” are not wearing red out of respect that is true but still…
Secondly this chap Christian:-
Since the start of the season, in the Savoie resort, “less than ten false monitors have been spotted out of more than 180 people inspected,” confides Christian, an independent professional. “In reality, what really poses a problem for some is the presence of foreign instructors in the stations. In recent weeks, it has become war,” he assures.
] |
These are stark figures and show there is no messing with the French authorities quite rightly that want to saviour in Savoire one of their last Frenchish enclaves. Like a Britain, France is Fected at all points of the compass but they have the red jackets of amazing skier/boarders on the slopes.
Anyway Christian mentioned the war was playing out foremost in the Stations where different Instructors are tasked off or uplifted out of the locals view. Maybe locals ride in the same lifts of the “ foreign “ instructors and make moves on our women speaking a sensible language!
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| Origen wrote: |
| So it looks as though other places have similar approaches to France? Fairly closed shops? |
No, coutries with a more capitalistic approach handle these things very differently, e.g. Austria, Germany.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "capitalistic", @Tristero, but I don't get the impression that things are more open and competitive in Austria than they are in France. How many non-Austrian owned ski schools are there? Can foreigners buy property anywhere, on equal terms with locals? Is there a competitive market in renting ski gear throughout the country?
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@Origen, It took New Gen over 10 years to get established in St Anton. The day the office opened the locals parked a truck in front of it. Last time I googled ski hire in St Anton it was twice the price of Tignes. Closed shops are alive and well in Austria.
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FAQ
