 Poster: A snowHead
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Hey there all
I'm a *relative* beginner skier (I started at 30, now 33 but I live in the Alps and ski with the local French Alpine Club). I'm a pretty competent piste skier now but I'm finding the transition to off piste is whooping my a**.
I ski tour regularly and can get down pretty much anything but grace, style and fun is lacking at the moment...
From my analysis, I've noticed that as soon as I get off piste I feel like my boots are too big (they shouldn't be, I'm skiing a tecnica cochise mondo point 23 and I'm a 37/38 European), with a lot of space in the toe box (I can basically wiggle my toes fully up). As a consequence I think I'm curling my toes, throwing me into the back seat and making me stiff, so it's hard to "pump" up and down and steer my skis. Does this sound about right? Could it also be that after two/ three seasons of skiing every weekend I've packed in the liners? Have tried buckling the shells down but this just makes my feet numb... Pretty sure it's also mostly technique (I'm scared of the speed probably leading me to lean back + curl toes - I don't do this on piste tho I am noticing much less precision in the toes being able to turn the front of the ski). Tips ? Tricks ? Really want to progress off piste this season.
Ta!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Annecienne, as no-one else has responded, I'll start with the most obvious question to help move things along.....
What size/type of skis are you skiing on, as that could well point to any help being offered to you, as might not be a simple case of your boots, but rather with your skis, especially if skiing with your local French Alpine Club, as in the past I was a member of CAF and skied numerous sorties with them, and many have their own unique style, which would would be fair to say was maybe due to skiing on skis <90mm wide.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I doubt if it's the boots that are the root cause here. Weight too far back can have any of a number of causes, so my recommendation would be to get back on piste with a private lessons and get them to focus specifically on trying to get your fore-aft position sorted. Once you've got the understanding of how to consistently address the issue you can then apply it the same off-piste as on.
"But I don't have the problem on-piste", do I hear you say? Yes, you do (almost certainly), it's just that you're used to skiing that way and the resulting skiddy turns are not such an issue on groomed snow, but when you get into softer stuff it's going to punish you.
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Hurrah! A response. I ski a blizzard black pearl 82, 153 length or around that. I'm 156cm and 50kg if that helps...
I also ski a Salomon MTN all mountain 88 touring with G3 pin bindings. At the end of last season I was alright on my touring skis but only ever managed very tight bouncy turns in powder.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
@Annecienne, as no-one else has responded, I'll start with the most obvious question to help move things along.....
What size/type of skis are you skiing on, as that could well point to any help being offered to you, as might not be a simple case of your boots, but rather with your skis, especially if skiing with your local French Alpine Club, as in the past I was a member of CAF and skied numerous sorties with them, and many have their own unique style, which would would be fair to say was maybe due to skiing on skis <90mm wide. |
Yes, not only the CAF, but loads of people who focus on ski mountaineering/touring. With lighter, softer and narrower skis they tend towards a very distinctive style, one you can spot half way across the mountain. "Hey, look, there's a ski-tourer" sorta thing. Stem-type turns, weight a long way back, jumping the skis a little to lift them out of the snow that would otherwise resist them skidding. Some people are _very_ good at this, so far be it from me to criticise, but it's quite different from what we'd normally consider 'good' in Alpine ski teaching, and trying to emulate it may be a part of the problem here.
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@Chaletbeauroc, a private lesson can't hurt for sure to get more consistency. I'm hoping I'm better than the picture you undoubtedly have of an intermediate skier  !!
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@Chaletbeauroc, a private lesson can't hurt for sure to get more consistency. I'm hoping I'm better than the picture you undoubtedly have of an intermediate skier !!
@Weathercam, sorry post above was for you, new to this whole forum business...
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@Annecienne, FWIW I started skiing at 33, skied in the back seat until I was about 39, then finally got some proper tuition that managed to help me recognise and address the problem.
I recall the instructor at that point, Brian, err, BASI trainer used to work with Phil Smith, Fern, was it? Anyway he used to describe me as a Bacon Skier. What do you mean? Lean back! (Only works for native British English speakers).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Anyway he used to describe me as a Bacon Skier. What do you mean? Lean back!
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@Chaletbeauroc, there is hope for us all then! I'm hoping I can fix it soon as I'm feeling pretty glum keeping everyone waiting on those touring descents...
But what you say about style above is also very very true... I'm sure I look way more "tour" than I do "alpine" (if I can be so generous to myself). I basically learned to ski on old (light) Movements at 78 width. Actually learned to ski with lessons (albeit on my touring set up at the CAF) and now I'm finally on a pair of piste skis ... Not your traditional learning path...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My take is that it's not the boots.
In fact I think your diagnosis is spot on "I'm scared of the speed probably leading me to lean back + curl toes".
It's pretty easy to kill your speed on piste, even if you are fairly inexperienced, technical not great but off piste it feels more difficult. And in some ways is.
I think the question is if you know what you are doing - and just need the time on skis/mileage/practice or if you are unsure and need some instruction. It's unclear what of the latter you've had thus far.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Try a longer ski?
I’m a bit taller than you at about the same weight. I ski a 162 length Volkl Kanja, which is a very similar type of ski. So at your weight, you may find a 158’ish length a better fit.
When I went a bit longer on ski length, I was less able to throw the ski sideways on piste. I was “forced” to learn to actually use the ski’s edge to turn rather than skid it. That helps considerable when going off-piste, as you can’t skid on unbashed snow off piste.
Also, longer skis are more stable at speed. You don’t feel you’re going too fast when you’re just cruising along. Remove the fear factor which lead to leaning back, which negatively affects control
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@abc, interesting - when I started I had an even shorter length and hated the ski... I'm pretty sure that I use the edge to turn though as I roll my ankles and feel the edge grip (it feels pretty effortless), but my understanding is that the technique is totally different off piste, as you need to create a platform with both skis fairly evenly weighted and then "unload" them to turn. I do feel that my weight distribution through the turn on piste isn't optimum though which is probably amplified off piste.
@Layne, instruction wise, I take group lessons every week through Jan/Feb (with the CAF) - about 3 hours in the morning. I think it's definitely the speed + toes (which led me to the question, why can I even curl my toes in my boots?). I did try actually lifting my toes up to get me forwards which helped slightly, but felt like I couldn't maintain that the whole time :/ - this also happens a lot more with a heavier ski, probably as I feel less in control (ironically), stiffen up my knees (I ski a bit stiff even on piste) and lock out. I think I also need to concentrate on bringing my heels backwards. So many things... So much practice required...
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You know it makes sense.
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Lessons. There's a range of things it could be but it's not obvious from what you are saying exactly what's up. Regarding technique, yes you want a more even platform but fundamentally you are doing the same things off piste that you are doing on piste. There's no major change in what you need to do when you move from groomed to ungroomed snow. It's the same basic movements.
Couple of points on kit. It is not a surprise that you are only managing right bouncy turns on your touring skis. They are pretty narrow and that's a common
technique with skinny skis. Second, the brahma is skinny, short and stiff. It's hard to weight the ski properly with short stiff skis without sticking the tip in and going over the bars. Leaning back is a natural reaction to this Talk to your instructor about the kit you are using.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Annecienne wrote: |
I'm pretty sure that I use the edge to turn though as I roll my ankles and feel the edge grip (it feels pretty effortless), but my understanding is that the technique is totally different off piste, as you need to create a platform with both skis fairly evenly weighted and then "unload" them to turn.
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Ah. No.
You clearly are trying to copy your CAF mates. That's pretty much what I described as the ski-tourer style, developed and perfected by many before carving skis were a thing and when 'lean back' was thought of as what you did in powder. I really suggest you find the time now to have some proper lessons - NOT with your CAF mates - and learn that there are much better ways to ski, and that we can use the same techniques off-piste as on.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
@Annecienne, as no-one else has responded, I'll start with the most obvious question to help move things along.....
What size/type of skis are you skiing on, as that could well point to any help being offered to you, as might not be a simple case of your boots, but rather with your skis, especially if skiing with your local French Alpine Club, as in the past I was a member of CAF and skied numerous sorties with them, and many have their own unique style, which would would be fair to say was maybe due to skiing on skis <90mm wide. |
Yes, not only the CAF, but loads of people who focus on ski mountaineering/touring. With lighter, softer and narrower skis they tend towards a very distinctive style, one you can spot half way across the mountain. "Hey, look, there's a ski-tourer" sorta thing. Stem-type turns, weight a long way back, jumping the skis a little to lift them out of the snow that would otherwise resist them skidding. Some people are _very_ good at this, so far be it from me to criticise, but it's quite different from what we'd normally consider 'good' in Alpine ski teaching, and trying to emulate it may be a part of the problem here. |
THere's no need for that on modern touring skis is there? My light touring skis are 178cm/88mm waist and have a lot more float than things I used to learn to ski powder.
However, if people feel "underskied" in soft snow my top tip would be to focus on TEMPO - hold onto the turn a bit longer than you think you should before standing up to unweight and steer the skis. This allows a platform to build to stand up off. It enables a bigger unweighting movement without having to jump or stem the skis round.
While I agree with the basic point that people need to sort our technique on piste first, this tempo//platform building thing does not have a real parallel on firm snow so needs to be practiced in ungroomed snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I do feel that my weight distribution through the turn on piste isn't optimum though which is probably amplified off piste.
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Skis that are too short tend to encourage leaning back.
More lesson and a lot more time on skis are the ultimate answer. But if you have equipment that are the wrong size for you, it will slow your progress significantly.
So, put some extra padding into your boot where you feel needed. Try a longer and/or wider skis. You need to find the right equipment, which is more critical during the learning/development stage
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 16-01-24 10:39; edited 3 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think that bit about "use the same techniques off-piste as on" is key.
Deep powder just ... exposes technique flaws which hardpack doesn't.
Those flaws ought to be visible on piste too, mind, so they are likely easily addressed in that more controlled environment.
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Too much binding delta creates a ton of forward lean, especially with such short boots. As a result, you feel like tipping over an compensate by sticking the butt out or leaning back in general. Stance issues created by boots and/or binding are generally underestimated. As little as 2-4mm of risers under my toes can make a huge difference for my offpiste skiing- I can compensate for stance issues quite easily onpiste. ungroomed, not so much.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Regarding toe box space: Some like this, I don't. Try some adhesive foam on the top of your liner in the toe area to fill some of that space. I do that and like the more snug feel.
I your are cranking your lower shell buckles beyond the 2nd position, then adding a shim in or under the liner will reduce total volume, maybe worth a shot.
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| Annecienne wrote: |
| @Layne, instruction wise, I take group lessons every week through Jan/Feb (with the CAF) - about 3 hours in the morning. |
I have no idea who CAF are and what is the quality of the instruction but it sounds like it's not working. But I may be doing them an injustice. Have your issues been discussed with any of the instructors?
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| danbre2022 wrote: |
Regarding toe box space: Some like this, I don't. Try some adhesive foam on the top of your liner in the toe area to fill some of that space. I do that and like the more snug feel.
I your are cranking your lower shell buckles beyond the 2nd position, then adding a shim in or under the liner will reduce total volume, maybe worth a shot. |
Not saying you are wrong but if the heel is held in place I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue. Overtightening the front buckles often stifles circulation and leads to cold feet. Not that that is what you are suggesting exactly but could lead to the same thing.
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@Layne, Club Alpin Francais. https://ffcam.fr/ They run a lot of the mountain huts and have local branches that are involved in all sorts of mountain sports/activities, focussing, ski-wise, on ski mountaineering/touring. I'm inferring that their 'lessons' are not with proper qualified instructors, but experienced ski mountaineers, for whom the downhill skiing part is largely incidental to the serious business of getting from A to B.
Local organisations across France are allowed to flout their own laws about instructors and use Moniteurs Nationals, who are often only around BASI 2/3 level and have no requirement for a Carte Pro.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
| danbre2022 wrote: |
Regarding toe box space: Some like this, I don't. Try some adhesive foam on the top of your liner in the toe area to fill some of that space. I do that and like the more snug feel.
I your are cranking your lower shell buckles beyond the 2nd position, then adding a shim in or under the liner will reduce total volume, maybe worth a shot. |
Not saying you are wrong but if the heel is held in place I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue. Overtightening the front buckles often stifles circulation and leads to cold feet. Not that that is what you are suggesting exactly but could lead to the same thing. |
It could be an issue if the toe box is too roomy.
Easy enough to test out by adding paddings to temporarily remove the extra space, to see if it makes noticeable improvement
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Yes CAF are an organisation that has clubs in majority of large towns across France.
They do not instruct, and they just love a day in the mountains and for many on a ski tour sortie the picnic lunch is the highlight.
Seven or so years ago they came under the microscope due to the number of fatalities amongst CAF skiers and ARVA education became a priority.
You have to remember that back in the day ski touring was primarily a Spring activity, hence skiing Spring snow you can pretty well ski on anything.
Ski touring for powder is now far more popular, and likewise some models of touring ski reflect that, and many skiers feel at home on 100+ waists or more.
My OH off-piste skiing was so much better when she went from 90 to 106 , she actually initially had some 115 powder skis, and I think this gave her the confidence to ski deep snow, now she skis the Pagoda Tour 106's all over the place!
She's out skiing currently (I've been doing XC) and when she's back I'll confirm weight and ski length etc but I think she's 60kg 168cm
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Layne, when I lift my foot in my boot with my skis on, I get about 1/4-1/2cm of space between my foot and the footbed. My heels also come up slightly and generally I have the feeling that the boot isn't "snug"... But I might be doing up the buckles wrong too.
I'm going to get a couple of private lessons in English and get them to diagnose my technique issues. My knees get a bit sore skiing which I guess could be a sign of sitting too far back (though, no thigh burn interrestingly).
Off to correct my technique I go ! (And perhaps with a bit more foam in my toe box).
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| Quote: |
@Layne, when I lift my foot in my boot with my skis on, I get about 1/4-1/2cm of space between my foot and the footbed. My heels also come up slightly and generally I have the feeling that the boot isn't "snug"... But I might be doing up the buckles wrong too.
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Ok. It' s probably other things as well but it's definitely the boots. I'm guessing from your username that you are in Annecy. In your shoes I'd go to Sole in Chamonix and buy some more boots.
The boot should feel like an extension of your foot. When you move your foot or raise your foot, the boot should move with you and mirror your movements.
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You know it makes sense.
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The only thing I have to add to this thread is don't totally replace resort skiing with touring. If you get a private lesson, which I think would be worthwhile, the instructor will likely identify something that you are doing wrong. Correcting this and further improving is going to take mileage though and you can rack up an order of magnitude more mileage using a high speed lift rather than touring. Ideally you would find some steep off piste (avalanche precautions allowing) and lap that till you feel like you're bossing the snow rather than the other way round. Often it takes more than 1 lap of an off piste section to relax that you're not going to fall of an unexpected cliff, hit a rock, worry about route finding etc and just focus on skiing well and when touring you often don't get that second go
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@snowheid, just as well I asked, as a typical husband, I guessed the weight wrong
She is 52kg and 167cm and her Pagoda Tours are 171
Elaine can feel quite strongly about how men will often decide what ski is best for their other halves, and indeed even buy it for them*, she has and is still on a mission advocating what is best for women, and again at the forthcoming ski-test will be searching out what's there for women.
And now my daughter is just back from skiing with her this morning and they scored good entry-level 5-10cms edge of piste powder, as my daughter is now migrating from piste to off-piste, and they have some great videos of the morning, think I missed out 
https://www.stylealtitude.com/best-womens-one-quiver-all-mountain-and-tour-skis.html
and
https://www.stylealtitude.com/dps-pagoda-tour-106-best-touring-skis.html
And @Annecienne, sounds like those boots might be best in the poubelle
* has no issues if the men want to pay for them after the women have decided what it right for them
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 16-01-24 14:04; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rambotion, totally agree. Hence the resort skiing 1x week ! Also I'm falling out of love with touring exactly because I don't get a "second go" and it takes me a while to relax, by which point I'm dead from all that backseat skiing, toe curling and just generally emotionally drained from the whole experience.
@gorilla, I know a couple of instructors in Cham so will combine that with a trip to Sole. Bye bye cash! But if it gets me down the hill happier it's all worth it in the end...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Weathercam, interesting thanks for this info! As for the poubelle, I'm surprised, everyone seems to love the tecnica cochise... Maybe I'm losing out on precision as they're a freeride boot that I take touring (they've probably had approx 100 days of use on piste and touring, so not sure this is enough to pack in the lining). I'm getting suspicious of the heel lifts and wondering if I need a shim in the toe... Argh !
Given the ski test articles you attached (thanks!) I might try renting some wider skis, then longer skis, and see which makes a difference... Then make a decision whether to change them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Annecienne wrote: |
| it's hard to "pump" up and down and steer my skis. |
Lessons 100%, this pumping sounds like a lot of hard work that isn't necessary offpiste!
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@Annecienne, I actually think your boots might be too big, not the fault of the boot, just maybe too large to achieve a snug fit, as someone mentioned you need to go to a boot specialist and see what they can offer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Weathercam, and I did for this pair, but will try another and bring them with me.
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| Annecienne wrote: |
| From my analysis, I've noticed that as soon as I get off piste I feel like my boots are too big (they shouldn't be, I'm skiing a tecnica cochise mondo point 23 and I'm a 37/38 European), with a lot of space in the toe box (I can basically wiggle my toes fully up). As a consequence I think I'm curling my toes, throwing me into the back seat and making me stiff, so it's hard to "pump" up and down and steer my skis. Does this sound about right? Could it also be that after two/ three seasons of skiing every weekend I've packed in the liners? |
On the boot front…
I’m also a European 37. My ski boots are mondo 22 instead. So, there’s a chance your boot is indeed too big to start with.
Add to that the 2-3 season of skiing every weekend, the liners would have been packed down quite a bit…
One cheap way to extend a pair of boot that’s borderline fully packed out is to add a thin flat piece of cardboard cutout to the bottom of your boot. That takes up just enough space both front and back of your feet…
Do you have custom footbed? If not, it’s high time to get one made. With the amount of skiing you’ve been doing, you deserve it.
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@abc, great tips, thanks! Given the price of new liners... gonna see with a boot fitter if it's indeed worth keeping on with this boot with a new liner or cut my losses and get a new pair with a hack until I do.
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@abc, oh and I quite forgot - yes I do have a custom footbed. I'm a bit flat footed, helps a lot.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Although it's quite possible that the boots aren't helping, I'd hold fire on replacing them if I were you, just on the basis that they almost certainly will not be a magic bullet, and if you're taking some proper lessons the instructor should be able to advise whether they're a significant factor or not.
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@Chaletbeauroc, well I went for a ski at the weekend and tried a few techniques (thanks YouTube) concentrating on fore/ aft. It's definitely me and not the boots. I was skiing my light rando skis which I find ironically easier to ski compared to my piste ones, but possibly because if you're exhausted they're easier to control as they're lighter.
Now to learn to ski the piste skis off piste as a real test of technique (along with some private lessons).
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FAQ
