I have been following the sad news of the Zermatt-Arolla tour group that died up on the Tete Blanche at the weekend (there is still one missing but it definitely doesn't sound promising), it has struck a chord with me because of the seemingly non-sensical decision to take on a haute route tour with a terrible weather forecast.
I've been reading with interest, looking for information that somehow explained why they set off and continued to press forward; basically hoping it can be put down to bad luck rather than accept that someone with experience made this decision and doubled down.
This has all been part of a wider reflection (on my part) about trust and what constitutes experience, whilst reading through updates this morning I saw this article where they asked local guides what they would have done; I found it quite unnerving that professionals make statements such as the following: “I personally would have started a tour in Zermatt on Saturday because the weather wasn’t that bad.” No it wasn't that bad, but it was forecast to be a lot worse, and it was right.
It feels like sometimes 'experience' can mean complacency, or worse, maybe a display of machismo or prestige? I understand that local knowledge is key and that's what you're buying with a guide, but this news story has made we wonder (by extrapolation) what other baggage you're buying at the same time...
I know I've been thinking too far into this, but as I said it struck a chord and its good to ruminate on things occasionally; especially about potentially life-changing decisions.
Ramble over.
Has anyone here had any close calls or been part of any bad decisions with a guide?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I feel like you are cherry picking the quote slightly, when the actual discussion is more nuanced:
“The fact that it is around 120 km/h at the summit is not an argument for me not to do the climb,” says Markus T.* to Blick. On Saturday he was traveling in the Augstbord region, 25 kilometers from the Haute-Route drama. “It wasn’t windy there.” And that's how it often is with forecasts. The situation can vary from place to place... “It takes around three to four hours to get to the Col de Tête Blanche. If I had noticed that the wind was getting stronger, I would have stopped the tour."
While I wouldn't have considered it with that forecast, I have to accept the guides have a much better understanding of the area and forecast accuracy. I'm sure all of us have experiences of setting out on bad forecasts (albeit on far less consequential things and perhaps not so extreme forecasts), sometimes you get lucky and its wrong other times you adapt/abandon when you see its right. So a guide saying they would be ok with setting out and seeing how it is doesn't strike me as crazy.
Quote:
Has anyone here had any close calls or been part of any bad decisions with a guide?
4 people in a guided group died in an avalanche here in Kyrgyzstan pretty recently. I've heard different stories of exactly what happened, some of which put the blame fully on the tourists others fully on the guide. But it's not like Europe where guides have to be highly qualified to even work.
I can give plenty of stories about "guides" in Nepal - but they are mostly trekking guides so again consequences are much lower than mountain guides.
In my experience good guides are actually very (perhaps even overly) cautious. "If I wouldn't feel comfortable skiing it on my own I won't take clients there. As I have zero faith that they could rescue me if things go wrong".
Although I'm sure there is ever increasing pressure on guides by clients who want to ski specific lines and steep descents. Particularly self employed guides that rely on word of mouth and positive reviews. Nobody is fawning over their guide who found some decent snow in some mellow trees when avalanche danger is high. Much quicker to rave about a guide that took them to some crazy line.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
What he said.
I've often seen [novice] clients struggle with risk aversion in guides, not the other way around.
I try to avoid systems with "perverse incentives" built in, for example if the guide only gets paid if you ride, that's not a good start.
I was talking with a guide last summer who was reflecting that he didn't know how much of what he did was luck, and how much was good management.
I think his grasp of reality was excellent; you can do a lot of stuff to minimize and ameliorate risk, but the risk is still there.
Quote:
Has anyone here had any close calls or been part of any bad decisions with a guide?
Not personally. Although I'd say that everyone, guides included, make mistakes all the time; the trick is to work within a system which limits or ameliorates the effects of those mistakes.
As per the guide in the link: you may start out in risky conditions, but you need to know your turn around point and criteria and routes in advance.
I feel like you are cherry picking the quote slightly, when the actual discussion is more nuanced
I get that there are a few different views in there, but it was the MD of the Swiss Mountain Guides Association making that public statement that jumped out to me. It wasn't cherry picking, I'm not tarring all guides with the same brush, I just wouldn't expect that attitude from someone who is supposedly representing guides nationally.
boarder2020 wrote:
In my experience good guides are actually very (perhaps even overly) cautious. "If I wouldn't feel comfortable skiing it on my own I won't take clients there. As I have zero faith that they could rescue me if things go wrong".
Although I'm sure there is ever increasing pressure on guides by clients who want to ski specific lines and steep descents. Particularly self employed guides that rely on word of mouth and positive reviews. Nobody is fawning over their guide who found some decent snow in some mellow trees when avalanche danger is high. Much quicker to rave about a guide that took them to some crazy line.
Yes, completely agree, the majority are very professional and this is what the overall perception is - however relying solely on the judgement of one human can have dire consequences, especially if they have an attitude (followed through) like the director above. I think the important thing is good communication here, no-one should go into a tour blind, and each of us has a responsibility to do due diligence and be honest about any concerns.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
To add, maybe the article takes the quote out of context a little (wouldn't be a surprise given it's a newspaper). It reads as if he would have taken a group up on the same high route tour given the expected conditions because he couldn't see the incoming front. Maybe he meant he would set off on a different route knowing that he would need to call it off. If I was him I wouldn't want any professional quote lacking clarity.
especially if they have an attitude (followed through) like the director above.
You are suggesting he has an "attitude" based on one sentence, that he would simply start the tour! As the other guides point out the forecasting is often wrong and you have enough time on the time climb to assess conditions and turn around if necessary. So setting off and seeing what conditions are like sounds perfectly reasonable.
Unless you have some real expertise of the route, I think I'll defer to the pros that have probably done it more times than they care to remember.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thomasski wrote:
To add, maybe the article takes the quote out of context a little (wouldn't be a surprise given it's a newspaper). It reads as if he would have taken a group up on the same high route tour given the expected conditions ..
I think you took it out of context, that's all.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Starting and seeing how conditions are with back up plans and being able to turn back is quite a normal approach.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Actually Saturday forecast wasn’t so bad. It was overnight it was expected to get really bad. It seems they sent a rescue message at 17:00 which suggests they were slow on the climb and then got caught by the weather coming in.
I was caught on Mont Blanc many years ago when projected bad weather came in early. Other groups turned back but we carried on thinking we could make it in time and get down. It was horrendous being in a storm on the summit, extremely tired and trying to down climb roped up. Our guides had a GPS device and got us down to a hut but it could have ended badly
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
So how many had experienced on guided tours that turned around after a long climb up?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
abc wrote:
So how many had experienced on guided tours that turned around after a long climb up?
We turned round both times I did the Haute Route on the last day due to bad weather. Most guides I’ve skied with (especially Swiss ones) will not take chances with a group in bad weather.
AIUI the group that perished on Tête Blanche were very experienced but not with a mountain guide
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
BobinCH wrote:
AIUI the group that perished on Tête Blanche were very experienced but not with a mountain guide
I ask because I suspect the dynamic maybe quite different in a guided group vs unguided group. In an unguided group, decision are more likely to be consensus based. Whilst in a guided group, the guide’s opinion has a lot more weight.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
In my experience good guides are actually very (perhaps even overly) cautious. "If I wouldn't feel comfortable skiing it on my own I won't take clients there. As I have zero faith that they could rescue me if things go wrong".
Hmmm I think that is the least I would expect. I would expect guides to be skiing and climbing massively within their comfort level when with clients. I would have thought they'd be willing to push much HARDER without the responsibility.
But to answer the OP, the guides I've skied and climbed with have always been appropriately conservative.
A few years ago I booked a guide for some ski mountaineering (including climb and ski down Aiguille d'Argentiere). He phoned up a few days before and said the combination of weather and avvy risk is such that he ccan't find anywhere in the ALps that he can safely take us. Walked away from four days income.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I am going to continue from@jedster, . Guide who I have known 20 years met his group up at Saas Fee. I think the week was 4000m peaks ski touring.
The forecast was abysmal for the bulk of the week. The guide presented the group with two options.
stay put in Saas with virtually no chance of getting out, never mind peak bagging.
Second option, drive north completely relocating and changing the programme .
They all agreed and drove across to the Susstenpass ( out east of Meiringen) While the weather was still poor it was significantly better than Saas Fee and they managed to get out and ski tour.
This "change of itinerary" demonstrates too me a guide who is hell bent on avoiding two things.
1, a blank week for his clients, 2, most importantly moving away from the serious weather and the potential danger!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
[quote="abc"]
BobinCH wrote:
Whilst in a guided group, the guide’s opinion has a lot more weight.
I think many guides are very aware of this. James Thacker (British UIAGM) has done some interesting looking work bringing crew resource management (CRM) frameworks from aviation into the mountain guiding sector. CRM is all about recognising the ‘captain’ is not infallible and junior crew can and should contribute to decision-making - learning from multiple marine and aviation accidents where crew didn’t speak up and the captain did make a mistake. I’ve not skied with James but have read his mountain CRM stuff.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Once skied the Monte Rosa tour with a guide who we found out later was going through a horrible divorce.
Might have explained why he was so vague about where we could and couldn't ski and safe routes through the 4000m+ glaciated terrain with freshly collapsed seracs.
We didn't even want to do the bloody tour in the first place and had set out for a multi-drop heli day. Oh how we laugh about it still
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A close friends daughter was killed earlier this week - touring with a group of guides all very experienced on what was reported as a fairly low risk day. People don’t usually set out to make bad decisions, sometimes it’s just Swiss cheese.
My kids are in pieces about it, they all grew up together. she was going to be working patrol for me this year. Just awful for everyone concerned and a horrible loss of a young life. Scares me because one of my kids is doing the same job.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
hang11 wrote:
A close friends daughter was killed earlier this week - touring with a group of guides all very experienced on what was reported as a fairly low risk day. People don’t usually set out to make bad decisions, sometimes it’s just Swiss cheese.
My kids are in pieces about it, they all grew up together. she was going to be working patrol for me this year. Just awful for everyone concerned and a horrible loss of a young life. Scares me because one of my kids is doing the same job.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
T Bar wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
Terrible situation. Thoughts are with you all.
+1
Horrible thing to happen.
+2
After all it is free
After all it is free
The way I read the news, and for sure this has to be taken with a grain of salt, some of the victims were AT racers, so a female guide in swiss TV assumed or knew they were out there in race kit.
also, I read they did not have bivy bags.
rescue personell also mentioned they had terrible light shovels that were useless to dig in hard snow.
so the picture might be:
-bad decision in the first place
-lightweight kit in many aspects
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
They were training for the long PdG which you do with lightest kit you can get away with. What is not clear is why they were still up there at 17:00. An experienced fast team should have cleared the Tête Blanche hours earlier. Was it the weather that slowed them down, but then why didn’t they turn round and just ski back to Zermatt? Or did they have some sort of problem at the top (kit? Illness?) and then the storm came in disorienting them? Whatever the reason it is very sad….
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
A close friends daughter was killed earlier this week - touring with a group of guides all very experienced on what was reported as a fairly low risk day.
Is there a report anywhere? Interesting to read about how and why professionals get caught out, as if they can make that mistake us normal people certainly can. Plus a nice change from reading about people dying in stupid easily avoidable ways (I'm talking in general avalanches not this specific case).
Quote:
also, I read they did not have bivy bags
Are most people really taking out a bivvy bag? This wasn't some super remote touring trip and they wouldn't have been expecting to have to bivvy. I mean I could never fault someone for taking some kind of survival bag/blanket, but I wouldn't expect it. Maybe one per group incase someone was to have a serious injury.
Quote:
rescue personell also mentioned they had terrible light shovels that were useless to dig in hard snow.
There's probably a discussion to be had about if some ultralight gear is up to the task. I assumed that anything sold by a reputable brand as avalanche equipment would have to meet certain criteria. Perhaps not.
I wouldn't want to throw all lightweight gear under the bus though. There's certainly an argument that lighter = faster = safer.
You look at the classic human behaviour traps like familiarity (I think they'd done the route before?) and commitment to a goal (need to do it for their race training). It's easy to speculate how they could come into play.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sidetrack...
boarder2020 wrote:
... Are most people really taking out a bivvy bag? This wasn't some super remote touring trip and they wouldn't have been expecting to have to bivvy. I mean I could never fault someone for taking some kind of survival bag/blanket, but I wouldn't expect it. Maybe one per group incase someone was to have a serious injury. ..
In UK there was a famous Scottish 1971 incident which meant that in that decade it was very common amongst folk I knew at least to always carry a bivvy bag in UK mountains. I still do. I carried the same that later when climbing in the Alps. It wasn't that I was "expecting to bivvy"; precisely the opposite. Plus I regularly participated in rescues, and sometimes folk get cold waiting. It's common in caving to carry something in case you have to wait around, which is possibly more common in caving, I've seen them well used in emergency situations there too. You can also poly bag (descend snow slopes extremely dangerously) on the stronger bags.
I'm surprised touring folk don't use such things, therefore, but it's not my area of expertise.
I get that you can dig a hole, and you do have shovels, but there've been a few incidents where people have failed to do that...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
phil_w wrote:
Sidetrack...
boarder2020 wrote:
... Are most people really taking out a bivvy bag? This wasn't some super remote touring trip and they wouldn't have been expecting to have to bivvy. I mean I could never fault someone for taking some kind of survival bag/blanket, but I wouldn't expect it. Maybe one per group incase someone was to have a serious injury. ..
In UK there was a famous Scottish 1971 incident which meant that in that decade it was very common amongst folk I knew at least to always carry a bivvy bag in UK mountains. I still do. I carried the same that later when climbing in the Alps. It wasn't that I was "expecting to bivvy"; precisely the opposite. Plus I regularly participated in rescues, and sometimes folk get cold waiting. It's common in caving to carry something in case you have to wait around, which is possibly more common in caving, I've seen them well used in emergency situations there too. You can also poly bag (descend snow slopes extremely dangerously) on the stronger bags.
I'm surprised touring folk don't use such things, therefore, but it's not my area of expertise.
I get that you can dig a hole, and you do have shovels, but there've been a few incidents where people have failed to do that...
Blizzard bags are great as an emergency measure, especially for an injured/ill party, but they do weight like 400g... I was under the impression most people carried, especially on a 3hr+ as waiting for rescue will drop your body temp dramatically even in good conditions. But you would have thought racers would have a lightweight bag with them; 150g or your life!
They were fighting a losing battle digging on an open ridge/plateau with 120kmh winds. I see from the photos there's rocks nearby (50-60m) which probably had drifts up them, but I imagine they'd lost visibility by then. Emergency measures are only going to reliable if deployed before they are critically needed...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
People massively underestimate what cold does to you when you are stationary.
Having seen how quickly people can deteriorate in relatively benign winter weather whilst injured and waiting a rescue, I always have a minimum of a SOL bag and a bothy bag sized for the group. In Scotland, the bothy bag is doubly useful as the weather is generally awful and it makes eating your butties at lunch a lot more pleasant! They also come on family hikes, the kids love getting in the bothy bag for snacks.
I also sometimes take a blizzard bag but that is heavy so not necessarily a "standard" bit of kit.
This is an excellent video from Mountaineering Scotland on the effect of cold and wind chill on a windy day at 13degrees. http://youtube.com/v/G5kPLf8MXQc
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I'm just a piste skier, but have a space blanket with me in case I get stuck on a chairlift, or to put over someone who's injured and getting cold awaiting rescue.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
[quote="boarder2020"]
Quote:
I wouldn't want to throw all lightweight gear under the bus though. There's certainly an argument that lighter = faster = safer.
Minimizing weight can lead to moving faster but in this case, they were carrying shovels that were useless, so they were carrying more weight than they needed to.
(No point carrying a useless shovel, carry a light but functional shovel or none at all).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
[quote="galpinos"]
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't want to throw all lightweight gear under the bus though. There's certainly an argument that lighter = faster = safer.
Minimizing weight can lead to moving faster but in this case, they were carrying shovels that were useless, so they were carrying more weight than they needed to.
(No point carrying a useless shovel, carry a light but functional shovel or none at all).
I literally said "There's probably a discussion to be had about if some ultralight gear is up to the task. I assumed that anything sold by a reputable brand as avalanche equipment would have to meet certain criteria. Perhaps not" above the paragraph you chose to quote! I'm certainly not promoting ultra light for the sake of it, I'm far from a "weight-weenie".
Being fast (and I'd put that more down to fitness than equipment weight) is definitely an advantage. Reduces exposure and can get you out of an uncomfortable situation, especially if the weather changes. Plus just more enjoyable touring when you are fit and opens up more options.
And when I say "fast" I'm not talking kilian Journet stuff.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A light shovel that's designed to be part of your avalanche safety gear will be (should be) up to the task of digging someone out of debris, but not many avalanche shovels will dig you a hole/cave in windswept hardpack or ice. There are limits to everything, which is why the performance of your equipment is the fallback and shouldn't be your primary survival strategy.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
On shovels generally, you can easily break those if you're not careful. Training typically covers that.
Again, we can't know about this specific incident, but some types of snow would not be terribly conducive to digging. And as someone pointed out, the snow may not support the depth you need even if you can dig. Not all snow will make an igloo. I'm sure the folk in the Vignettes hut incident [where we do know the details] had shovels, but they failed to dig a cave good enough to survive in too.
In a race, the purpose of equipment carried is perhaps cynically... to meet the race requirements. But a race also has marshals and extra safety protocols in place; perhaps one could consider training with slightly more/ heavier gear, to ameliorate the risk of not having the backup you will have in an actual race.
I literally said "There's probably a discussion to be had about if some ultralight gear is up to the task. I assumed that anything sold by a reputable brand as avalanche equipment would have to meet certain criteria. Perhaps not" above the paragraph you chose to quote! I'm certainly not promoting ultra light for the sake of it, I'm far from a "weight-weenie".
FYI, there is no compulsory standard for avalanche shovels. The UIAA have written a standard but it is not a legal requirement. Not all shovels are equal, thouygh at least the once ubiquitous plastic shovels seem to have died a death.
boarder2020 wrote:
Being fast (and I'd put that more down to fitness than equipment weight) is definitely an advantage. Reduces exposure and can get you out of an uncomfortable situation, especially if the weather changes. Plus just more enjoyable touring when you are fit and opens up more options.
And when I say "fast" I'm not talking kilian Journet stuff.
Funny you should mention Killan. I remember a younger Killian and Emilie getting rescued off the Frendo having attempted a fast and light ascent despite the forecast (rapidly deteriorating weather in the afternoon/evening) and after a route finding error (and maybe an equipment failure) had to call for help. The PGHM came to their rescue but the chopper couldn't fly so they came down from the cable car. Had it been more remote.......
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
[quote="galpinos"]
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't want to throw all lightweight gear under the bus though. There's certainly an argument that lighter = faster = safer.
Minimizing weight can lead to moving faster but in this case, they were carrying shovels that were useless, so they were carrying more weight than they needed to.
(No point carrying a useless shovel, carry a light but functional shovel or none at all).
A shovel is mandatory for the PdG but highly unlikely to be used so people take the lightest one they can find. Perhaps they were training with the exact gear they were planning to use in the race
I don't carry a full bivvy bag (goretex etc reuseable thing) but I DO carry a double layer foil sleeping bag type thing - it is tiny, light (probably half the size of an apple) and might well have saved a life in that storm.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
BobinCH wrote:
A shovel is mandatory for the PdG but highly unlikely to be used so people take the lightest one they can find. Perhaps they were training with the exact gear they were planning to use in the race
Well, the PdG, though a very hard race, is a race undertaken under "somewhat" controlled conditions, in that courses are modified with respect to the weather and in case of an avalanche, there are rescue services on alert.
These people were headed out, self reliant, into an uncontrolled environment, so should take that into account. Train heavy, train safe!
After all it is free
After all it is free
galpinos wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
A shovel is mandatory for the PdG but highly unlikely to be used so people take the lightest one they can find. Perhaps they were training with the exact gear they were planning to use in the race
Well, the PdG, though a very hard race, is a race undertaken under "somewhat" controlled conditions, in that courses are modified with respect to the weather and in case of an avalanche, there are rescue services on alert.
These people were headed out, self reliant, into an uncontrolled environment, so should take that into account. Train heavy, train safe!
I’m not advocating for useless shovels but trying to help you understand why experienced ski tourers may have been carrying something light and flimsy.
I am doing the PdG from Zermatt this April and will be trying to cut every gram I can especially on tjose items unlikely to be used considering I’ll be carrying them for 15 hours +
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
BobinCH wrote:
galpinos wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
A shovel is mandatory for the PdG but highly unlikely to be used so people take the lightest one they can find. Perhaps they were training with the exact gear they were planning to use in the race
Well, the PdG, though a very hard race, is a race undertaken under "somewhat" controlled conditions, in that courses are modified with respect to the weather and in case of an avalanche, there are rescue services on alert.
These people were headed out, self reliant, into an uncontrolled environment, so should take that into account. Train heavy, train safe!
I’m not advocating for useless shovels but trying to help you understand why experienced ski tourers may have been carrying something light and flimsy.
I am doing the PdG from Zermatt this April and will be trying to cut every gram I can especially on tjose items unlikely to be used considering I’ll be carrying them for 15 hours +
Yeah but you'll be on a managed route in decent weather with help quickly on hand.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
BobinCH wrote:
I’m not advocating for useless shovels but trying to help you understand why experienced ski tourers may have been carrying something light and flimsy.
I am doing the PdG from Zermatt this April and will be trying to cut every gram I can especially on tjose items unlikely to be used considering I’ll be carrying them for 15 hours +
I understand and agree with all of that, but I would also hope, from your posts over the years, that seem experienced and sensible enough that when you go out on a training loop on an inclement forecast you would consider an extra layer and a proper shovel in addition to the standard "race pack contents"...
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
