 Poster: A snowHead
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Ok sort of have touched on this before.
Back in the UK I know a handful of kitesurf / wingfoil instructors and they ALL use Bluetooth tech to talk to their pupils out on the water.
And I've just tested my radios/walkie talkies to see if they could work like that, as they are the clip-on type with separate voice trigger.
So was thinking of asking my neighbour who is an XC instructor for a skating technique lesson with her skating behind me correcting me on my timing of legs/arms etc which is so feckin critical at my intermediate level, as get the timing technique better and will be a major difference!
And then obvious question why not use them in Alpine scenarios ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bluetooth probably wouldn't have the range, although if it did would be a good solution.
There's probably only a small number of frequencies/channels on the analogue radios, so you'd probably end up 'sharing' a channel if a lot of people used them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Having a running commentary is pretty distracting. The last thing I’d want is a voice in my ear trying to change a range of different things as I’m trying to flow from turn to turn. I’d not inflict that on anyone I teach, either.
A few years back skimottaret and I tested a Bluetooth thing designed for ski helmets, including with a blind client that he was working with. Soon realised it was an unnecessary distraction and not used them since.
I think there’s a danger that skiers become too reliant on external feedback, a sort of validation of what they are doing from someone else, at the expense of tuning in to their internal feedback so they can feel what is going on and how their skis respond to relatively subtle changes in their movements. I speak from personal experience on this. There would have been a time I’d have been delighted to have an instructor give a running commentary on each and every turn, as I was a bit of a feedback junkie. But it was only when I started to listen to, and respond to, my internal feedback that my skiing took a step change for the better.
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I use a sena bluetooth set up (sena snowtalk, version 1 is better than version 2) when guiding a VI skier, and would not be with out it, in fact it would be virtually impossible to do it well. I am not coaching them however, just guiding, as the mic is on all the time, they can also hear my skis, which they say helps a great deal.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rob@rar, I agree that constant input from the instructor would not be helpful. They're trying to make sense, literally to sense, what they're feeling from their skis and body and how that relates to what they've understood so far. The instructor cannot feel what they're feeling, they cannot immediately translate their feelings into words...
Anyway, I can shout quite loud enough for them to hear the difference between "Pizza" and "Chips". 
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I saw a group up at Hintertux a few weeks back that all had some devices attached to their helmets, which presumably the coaches further down the slope were talking to them via. First time i've seen it though
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From what I've seen of your cross country from Youtube it is not bad at all and that is reflected in your good speed on snow but you tend to cross country ski like you are skating on a piste ski.
You need to get your center of gravity more over the glide ski rather than staying centered between the skis.
You seem to lift your skis whereas the action is a flexed ankle over the glide ski, at the end of the glide this leg will straighten which will enable your power ski to swing back under your body without having to lift the ski, you'll then move onto the new ski with a tall body. We're looking for economy of movement, not doing the autumn grape pressing.
Maybe a bit of upper body rotation, perhaps linked to arm movements.
Keep the poles more to the vertical rather than sticking them out to the side.
Arm position needs some tweaks, don't drop your arms when you pole. Elbows should be bent.
Your instructor can sort this out. I would agree with the others that a running commentary is distracting. I think the most useful thing you could do is ask your instructor to video you then work on certain areas but let us know if she goes for the talkie-walkie idea and how it goes.
The on snow environment lets you give a student a task to do accompanied by some information about that task. The instructor can then observe the skier and debrief and develop the students skills. This is even easier when cross country skiing as students will be working in a more localised environment compared to piste skiers. I imagine the open water space is more complicated for instructors. I worked a bit in motorcycle instructing where intercoms have been used for a long time but there was very little running commentary, they were more used for directions with students stopping in laybyes or car parks to discuss the lesson - a bit like ski instruction.
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Having had many riding lessons (horses just incase any one is wondering) using this method - I think its an excellent idea - surely if the instructor is behind you can receive immediate feed back?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm with @rob@rar, and @Chaletbeauroc, on this. Generally, if I'm teaching someone who needs constant feedback then we're skiing slowly enough that I can ski backwards in front of them, make eye contact with them and give them reminders as we go.
Once students are past this stage, then I prefer that they feel and think for themselves. If I see something that needs addressing then we stop and talk about it. Sometimes I might call out a rhythm, but my aim is for the student to be able to do it for themselves, so that they can ski just as well without me there.
I use Bluetooth headsets with VI students. As @Zorrac, says, essential - once they're past snowplough stage/speed. In that situation the commands are for safety reasons.
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| Dippy wrote: |
| Having had many riding lessons (horses just incase any one is wondering) using this method - I think its an excellent idea - surely if the instructor is behind you can receive immediate feed back? |
Could never be 'immediate' enough. Giving feedback on what's just happened a second or two afterward, while they're actually trying to deal with the next turn... not a recipe for success.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Weathercam, Myself and ski pal use these all the time last 4-5 years, we keep them clipped on rucksack strap, fed through the water hole main unit in the warmth of the bag and volume turned really low, we only use them when off piste and for line spotting etc keeping in contact when out of line of sight, they work really well and range is excellent.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Chaletbeauroc, as I mentioned, all the kitesurf instructors I know, and three are good friends, all use Bluetooth helmets to teach pupils, and now they also teach Wing Foiling.
I'd actually say that teaching these sports is far more involved than teaching skiing as when it goes wrong it really can go wrong, plus the instructor is more often than not land-based whilst the pupil is in the water, so that's probably the main reason why.
When I listen to them teaching their pupils who are often in a totally hostile/difficult environment their dulcet tones almost calm the situation down.
As I said I'm thinking of it as tool to improve XC technique and I can see that possibly working as again it's a totally different environment to Alpine, as on the flat my instructor will probably go as fast as me without poles as me with poles, and almost like a cox be able to call time on me?
@Markymark29, I actually bought them to help ski with the OH off-piste, especially in the forest as you can quickly lose line of sight, plus should she fall in the deep stuff, she can sometimes take a while to get her shite back together so it's nice to know it's nothing too serious that might involve climbing back up to her etc
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@MorningGory, Bluetooth would have the range. Like @Zorrac, we tested the Cardo bluetooth headsets with VI skiers. When I say we, I mean the guides and the skiers tested properly. The parents went off and used them to generally try and be comedians all day.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Dippy wrote: |
| Having had many riding lessons (horses just incase any one is wondering) using this method - I think its an excellent idea - surely if the instructor is behind you can receive immediate feed back? |
Could never be 'immediate' enough. Giving feedback on what's just happened a second or two afterward, while they're actually trying to deal with the next turn... not a recipe for success. |
I'm definitely no Ski Instructor - although I have lessons (which I love) during most ski trips.
For me personally I think this would really work. I can only relate to the experience I have using them during dressage lessons - where an immediate alteration to a movement can quickly improve the next movement - or in the case of skiing the next turn
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Many luddites in the ski world. Other sports use it to great effect so why would skiing be any different. It is obviously a good idea and I have had great experiences using it.
After a bad turn or two, a comment that "on the next few turns, I want you to focus on X" can be really useful feedback to enable the student to feel the difference between a good turn and a bad turn in real time without the need to stop.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Noob921 wrote: |
| Many luddites in the ski world. Other sports use it to great effect so why would skiing be any different. It is obviously a good idea and I have had great experiences using it. |
I've tried it. It didn't work, for the reasons that the other instructors in this thread all explained. Luddite? Not at all, I'd have been delighted if it was a new tool in the teaching toolbox. But it wasn't, so I stopped using it. What's funny is all the comments from people who think it will work on the basis of no teaching experience. Wonder what the pejorative noun is for that? Noob, perhaps?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I’ve had lots of good lessons and lots of bad lessons and the one with instant feedback was one of the best. Ski instructors who don’t adapt to technology and the times will ultimately be the ones who suffer when people vote with their wallets.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@VTSkier, how was the instant feedback given?
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I don't understand how the student can properly absorb feedback when s/he's on to the next turn, type of terrain etc. In other words, this:
| Quote: |
Could never be 'immediate' enough. Giving feedback on what's just happened a second or two afterward, while they're actually trying to deal with the next turn
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There again, it might depend a bit on the type of feedback. There could, for instance, be a consistent problem with the student's stance, which could be helpfully commented on, as a generalisation? Or, if race training were involved, guidance on the student's line through the gates might be helpful?
Personally, though, I hate having any sound pumped into my brain through earphones, so I'd be unlikely to get on with this.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Or, if race training were involved, guidance on the student's line through the gates might be helpful? |
Not in the middle of a run, no. Distraction on steroids. But a coach who might not be located at the end of the course radioing immediate feedback on tactical choices that the racer has made in the course would be useful, and happens regularly.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Or, if race training were involved, guidance on the student's line through the gates might be helpful? |
As a race coach, I don't think this would help, things are happening too fast to talk to someone while they are skiing a course.
We do use radios though, you have one at the top and the coach can stand part way down and talk to each trainee before their next run.
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@rob@rar, @rjs, understood. I've fairly obviously never raced. 
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One other reason to not use a radio is that when you are racing you don't hear anything, someone doing recreational skiing probably isn't concentrating quite as hard but I think their focus should be on senses other than hearing if they want to ski well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you've ever taken a (hands free) 10 minute business phone call while driving....the chances are that after you've hung up, you will remember little about what you saw out of the windscreen.....or try driving around cones laid out like a tight slalom on a skid pan, while counting backwards, starting at 100 as you keep subtracting 14....and you won't make many turns before you start hitting them.
I have never skied with instructions coming directly into my ear....but I think it would screw me up, maybe even to the point of losing focus and/or catching an edge.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 19-12-23 16:34; edited 1 time in total
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I have never skied with instructions coming directly into my ear....but I think it would screw me up, maybe even to the point of catching an edge and/or losing focus. |
I once tried using a bluetooth headset when my girlfriend was skiing. She appreciated the fact that it was two-way communication as I very clearly heard her say "just shut the f**k up".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I have never skied with instructions coming directly into my ear....but I think it would screw me up, maybe even to the point of catching an edge and/or losing focus. |
I once tried using a bluetooth headset when my girlfriend was skiing. She appreciated the fact that it was two-way communication as I very clearly heard her say "just shut the f**k up". |
Were you mansplaining?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I have never skied with instructions coming directly into my ear....but I think it would screw me up, maybe even to the point of catching an edge and/or losing focus. |
I once tried using a bluetooth headset when my girlfriend was skiing. She appreciated the fact that it was two-way communication as I very clearly heard her say "just shut the f**k up". |
I would have got that - without the need of a headset! 
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| And then obvious question why not use them in Alpine scenarios ? |
I think a more pertinent question is why more instructors don't use video analysis as a regular part of their teaching? I do a video feedback session on virtually every teaching session. Sometimes on the hill, and always off the hill so we can use a larger screen and look at things in slow motion, even frame-by-frame. I think it's an essential teaching tool, yet the majority of ski schools and the majority of ski instructors hardly ever use video feedback. At Inside Out Skiing we have almost a terabyte of client video going back 10+ years, with each of our clients having their own video library of all the video we've taken of them, which they can review at any time.
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You know it makes sense.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Were you mansplaining? |
Yes, definitely. I'm a terrible guy.
[/Jane]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Well, once the student is about two turns away they can't hear anything without some type of gadget. A running commentary would of course be counterproductive as already noted, but for an occasional affirmation "yeah, like that!" or important direction "stop there" it seems like a good idea. I used a system like this taking a driving class during covid (so the instructor was in a trailing car, not mine) and it was fine.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
| And then obvious question why not use them in Alpine scenarios ? |
I think a more pertinent question is why more instructors don't use video analysis as a regular part of their teaching? |
I remember Weathercam got his "pisteur" woman to film him in the past.
I saw a couple of L4 learning cross country along with other skiers. What was interesting was the L4s could be told to do X and they would do it whereas the other skiers had a lot of difficulty. The L4s were clearly better able to visualize instructions, even in an adjacent discipline. The other skiers were amazed to see video footage showing that when they thought they were doing a "huge amount" of X it was in fact very little (like ankle flex, or getting hips forward).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@rob@rar, bless her cotton socks!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @rob@rar, bless her cotton socks! |
Not good for skiing in , you tend to get cold or blistered feet if wearing cotton socks.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
| And then obvious question why not use them in Alpine scenarios ? |
I think a more pertinent question is why more instructors don't use video analysis as a regular part of their teaching? I do a video feedback session on virtually every teaching session. Sometimes on the hill, and always off the hill so we can use a larger screen and look at things in slow motion, even frame-by-frame. I think it's an essential teaching tool, yet the majority of ski schools and the majority of ski instructors hardly ever use video feedback. At Inside Out Skiing we have almost a terabyte of client video going back 10+ years, with each of our clients having their own video library of all the video we've taken of them, which they can review at any time. |
I've bought a decent camera cheap from a pawn shop to do this with Mrs Swskier this season. It makes such a difference
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
| And then obvious question why not use them in Alpine scenarios ? |
I think a more pertinent question is why more instructors don't use video analysis as a regular part of their teaching? |
I remember Weathercam got his "pisteur" woman to film him in the past.
I saw a couple of L4 learning cross country along with other skiers. What was interesting was the L4s could be told to do X and they would do it whereas the other skiers had a lot of difficulty. The L4s were clearly better able to visualize instructions, even in an adjacent discipline. The other skiers were amazed to see video footage showing that when they thought they were doing a "huge amount" of X it was in fact very little (like ankle flex, or getting hips forward). |
Occasionally I teach people who seem extremely “coachable”, good at visualisations, good proprioception, great focus. Very often they have performed to a high standard in another sport, including activities entirely unrelated to winter sports. Video is an essential tool, IMO, to help skiers understand their range, rate, direction and timing of the movements they are making, not least because most of us don’t have a great handle on these things.
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@rob@rar, what's even better than watching video of yourself is staying in a bar drinking beer, while your "mates" watch it back on your behalf. You'll then be on the receiving end of such merciless mockery that you'll have no choice but to change how you ski. I used this approach during EoSB 22 and being repeatedly called Funky Gibbon really gave me pointers on what to focus on It genuinely had more impact than if I'd seen the footage myself...Although I'd recommend that those with a fragile ego steer clear
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I think the benefits of 2 way radio communication are best felt once a skier is being coached rather than instructed, when there is already a working relationship between coach and skier. Explanations and comments tended to become much less wordy. In fact the coach may only need to use 1 word for the skier to know where they are at, because they both know what the goal is. Not to use when actually skiing, but just before starting as a reminder, or straight afterwards as instant feedback.
Instant video feedback is brilliant, because the skier still has the feel of the run, something that disappears very quickly. They can relate the feel to what they see on the screen.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| swskier wrote: |
I've bought a decent camera cheap from a pawn shop to do this with Mrs Swskier this season. It makes such a difference |
You sir, are a brave man
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FAQ
