 Poster: A snowHead
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HI,
Was in Les Arcs (Vallandry) about 10 weeks ago, only issue I had was 1 sore calf.
When I got back I developed what felt like flu, including sore joints, especially knees, but more so my right knee. My memory was also shot to pieces.
The 'Flu' went away, but the knees and memory remained. after a few weeks of wondering what was going on, I contacted a doctor, I told him that I'd picked something off my neck one morning in Les Arcs without looking at it. He said I'd likely been bitten by a tick and I had developed Lyme disease, and the knees where probably a sign of Lyme Arthritis. He prescribed a 4 week course of Doxycycline, which I'm now half way through. I'm also on Ibuprofen (self prescribed, about 4 tablets per day)
My memory's getting better, but my knees are still just as bad, they're good one day and bad the next, and it's mostly behind the kneecap, but nearer MCL. Sometimes it really hurts, especially coming down stairs, so I come down backwards to avoid placing so much strain on my knees. I've also had a couple of migraines recently.
Anyone else had this experience, and can tell me how it went for them - I'm worried that it's a wheelchair for me for the foreseeable future.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry to hear about your condition.
Lyme disease has a very characteristic 'bullseye' rash which presents in most cases, did you have any obvious irritation at the bite site? It is also worth commenting that Lyme disease is actually quite rare although admittedly on the increase in Europe. It is a bit of a leap for your GP to come up with the diagnosis of Lyme disease based on an anecdotal account of a tick bite with no characteristic rash and in the absence of any conclusive serology (blood tests to study response to any infection). Were any bloods done prior to your script for Dox? I would be asking for a referral from your GP to a rheumatologist if symptoms continue.
I wish you a speedy recovery.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@marodo2712, You should also get yourself checked for TBE https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tick-borne-encephalitis/ . It is unlikely that you have got it but it is potentially serious if you have (only a minority of ticks carry it and even then only 30% chance of being infected). Anyone taking a holiday in the alps should make sure they get vaccinated for this before they go. Not sure how prevalent it is in the western alps but it is not uncommon in the eastern alps (pretty much the entire population of Austria has been vaccinated) and has been increasingly common in southern Germany in recent years.
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@NoMapNoCompass, thanks for responding.
I didn't notice any rash or bullseye. I think he thought Lyme Arthritis because it mostly affects one knee.
Borellia bloods were taken, but negative, so "sent to reference library". Also tested for: Urea and electrolytes - normal. Liver - acceptable. Serum C reactive protein level - normal. Differential white cell count - normal (except high monocytes - 1.43). Full blood count - normal.
You think it might be RA? I had no joint pain on the piste, only when i got the flu when I got back.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@NoMapNoCompass, The bullseye rash is present in something like 50 - 70% of cases. Google it. There are many sources. Not having the bullseye rash does not mean that you don't have Lyme disease. Treating Lyme disease quickly is of utmost importance, whilst you should do blood tests in parallel the correct course of action is to start on Doxycycline as soon as there is reason to believe that you may have Lyme disease. The blood tests often don't catch it and waiting for the result wastes time.
@marodo2712, regardless of whether it is Lyme disease or not, I hope you get better soon. If your bloods aren't being checked for Lyme disease, get them checked. In a worst case scenario I believe that multiple rounds of antibiotics should kill it as you weren't bitten that long ago if it is Lyme disease. I don't know why the other two posters are so keen on down playing the chances of it being Lyme disease, the symptoms match and it is a risk anywhere with ticks. A family friend caught it in the Alps, no rash and undiagnosed for a long time, and it was a very long recovery for her although I believe that she is now fully recovered. My brother's partner also got it, in the UK, but she was lucky and had the rash so started on Doxycycline before she got any other symptoms and was fine.
For those interested, there is a vaccine in development:
https://valneva.com/press-release/pfizer-and-valneva-complete-recruitment-for-phase-3-valor-trial-for-lyme-disease-vaccine-candidate-vla15/
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@rambotion, not playing down Lyme at all, potentially a very nasty infection if not treated. TBE can be even more serious (though to be fair it is rare). They are not mutually exclusive, cant remember which way round but one needs a tick to be attached for some time the other only a short time. There was a vaccine for Lyme but it was dropped as a result of law suits over "side effects". I for one would be very happy to have it. Always irritating that the dog can have anti tick treatment (Advantix) but we have nothing beyond insect spray and long trousers!
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Neither am I playing down Lyme disease, and starting on Dox when it is suspected is sensible and within NHS guidelines. However Lyme is also a rather rare presentation, in the UK at least, so considering other differentials is also important.
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@munich_irish, I misread your post and thought that you were saying that it was unlikely that the OP had Lyme disease, apologies.
@NoMapNoCompass, In France (where the OP believes that they caught it) one in every 1,333 people will be diagnosed with Lyme disease in a given year (incidence rate of 75/100,000). Whether that is rare or not is subjective but clearly not incredible that the OP does have Lyme disease:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10122229/
In the UK the incidence rate does appear to be around 5% of the French figure
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for all the feedback.
Has anyone ever had Lyme Arthritis?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@marodo2712, what were you doing in Vallandry? The usual method of picking up ticks is walking through long grass or bracken. Ticks climb and sit on the stems, and drop off on to passing humans or animals. More likely to pick them up if you have bare legs/arms, or not using insect repellent. But they can sit on clothes and then move to bare skin later.
So not something you might expect to generally pick up if skiing, unless perhaps you have a picnic in an area of long vegetation.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@ecureuil, it was hot weather, i was skiing with everything open, and the tick was on my neck.
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@munich_irish, it was the very first article that i read!
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You know it makes sense.
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@marodo2712, if you read about ticks on say Wikipedia you will see that freezing temperatures at ground level combined with a lack of vegetation means picking them up while skiing is fairly unlikely. Did the object you took from your neck appear to be tightly connected to your skin, and be swollen, requiring some force (say from a fingernail) to dislodge it? Did it itch for some days afterwards?
Some friends have had Lyme disease, and I usually 'collect' up to 10 ticks a year, but always from brushing through vegetation never from skiing.
So I would keep up the Lyme medication, but not rule out that it could be something else entirely.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@ecureuil, It was half way through April, and it was boiling hot. I remember feeling a lump on my neck then digging at it with my finger nail until it went bloody. It felt itchy for a few days.
Whatever it is or was, I have a high monocyte count, so my body's fighting some sort of bacterial infection.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Pets can pick them up easy enough. Out in Jakarta (between 85 and 94) our Dalmatian had them between his toes - had to de-tick him regularly. Tiny ticks could sometimes be seen crawling up the walls - they would drop down from the ceiling so not always caught from being near vegetation. I now live near the New Forest where I often hike/dog walk. I keep a tick removal thingy and check the dog for ticks after each walk. Avoid long grass in tick season and stick to the gravel paths but the dog can still pick them up. Have found a tick on myself sometimes a day or so after a dog walk - dog has been on sofa or on my lap. Some of them are really really tiny so could be biting you for a while before you even notice it. Also check for MS as may show similar symptoms?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Back in 1987 I travelled into upstate NY where lyme disease was prevelant. I was collecting some wood and chopping it up, but to prevent tick bites I tucked socks over trousers and wore light coloured long sleeved clothing. No tick bites then.
I have read a lot about it, and tried to get a vaccine once but the local nurse laughed at my suggestion.
My reading on this issue told me that ticks have to have gorged on your blood for a long period in order to spread the disease. So a small tick on your neck, which you noticed quickly and removed, is unlikely to have spread the disease even if it had it (the probability of which is low depending on location)
Lyme disease has spread to Scotland now, and ticks bite regularly here. Mostly on the west coast of Scotland where lyme disease is prevalent. (not quite where I am)
So check for ticks after being in the long grass (or bracken), and change clothes. Removing them quickly stops you getting infected.
I always go running in leggings and wear long sleeves, and shower after a run in the woods.I wear long compression socks as well.
I still get bitten, but I always seem to feel the bite when they are small and never find large ticks gorging on my blood.
If they have gorged and spread the disease there will be a characteristic bullseye rash around the bite afterwords (usually).
It does not sound like Lyme disease to me, as you removed the tick from a location where you could see it, and said nothing of a bullseye rash.
My father used to get tick bites all the time in summertime. I do not think he changed clothes, and often they land on clothing first. Then he seemed to lie in bed with clothes on during the day, and so bed was likely a haven for ticks to get you at night (and not feel the bites). Hygeine is important to prevent...
Change your sheets....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was bitten by a tiny tick on my leg a couple of years ago, small enough I didnt realise it was even a tick. The bite was massively itchy and developed an expanding rash that faded over a few days into a bullseye. 3 weeks of doxycycline cleared it and no problems since.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Looks like a vaccine for Lyme (Borelliosis) disease is on the way. Friend of mine picked up Borreliosis a few days ago here in his garden... not feeling well! More critically another friend picked up tick borne viral meningitis, TBE, in Axams (Innsbruck) a while ago. Ended up in a coma for two weeks! He recovered OK, but that is not always the case. Should definitely get vaccinated if you plan on hiking in Austria or Italy or southern Germany.
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@Steilhang, iirc, there are around 40 cases of TBE in Tirol every summer, so while it’s not massively common given the amount of outdoors days/person there will be, it is definitely out there. Which reminds me, I must go in for my booster.
The relevant area covers a large part of Europe now, so everyone who spends time outdoors should get it really. In Austria it’s about €50/shot and you need a minimum of two.
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In the UK 3 shots are recommended for TBE. At around £65-70 each, so not cheap. (Not available on NHS).
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@ecureuil, no, it isn't something that is present in the UK, so is a 'travel vaccine' so not FOC on NHS, we could argue that costs of treating anyone with TBE would far outweigh the cost of the vaccine, it is £32 for a surgery to order. NUmbers of people requiring it would probably be small
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Hells Bells, I thought there had been cases in the UK but maybe misremembering media reports. It is an issue in central Europe anyone considering an active holiday in the alps or other parts of central Europe or some parts of Scandinavia should get the jabs. I believe it is not so much of an issue for the western alps. It is known as FSME in German.
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@munich_irish,
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I thought there had been cases in the UK
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So did I.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yes, I thought there had been too. I vaguely remember getting annoyed at a “news” article that went on about how to prevent yourself getting infected with TBE while having a picnic, but entirely failed to mention the existence of an effective vaccine, presumably because it isn’t available on the NHS. Maybe it’s time it was.
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@Scarlet, I had no idea, until reading this thread, that there was a vaccine.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| @ecureuil, no, it isn't something that is present in the UK, so is a 'travel vaccine' so not FOC on NHS, we could argue that costs of treating anyone with TBE would far outweigh the cost of the vaccine, it is £32 for a surgery to order. NUmbers of people requiring it would probably be small |
That’s a hard argument to make given the small number of cases in the UK. £32 for millions vs less than hundred of cases. Perhaps makes sense for Europe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@abc, but presumably one of the reasons the price is so high is the low uptake. I'm not suggesting that there should be given that TBE cannot be transmitted by humans, but if there were a vaccine drive of the scale of a disease like measles, I expect the price per unit would drop significantly.
In Austria, I believe certain groups can be vaccinated for free – farmers and other land workers, I think, possibly also children. However, there are still awareness drives among the population to improve uptake despite the cost.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Making it available on the NHS doesn't mean that you have to unilaterally vaccinate the whole population. Just on request to those more at risk. Eg working in forestry / farming; regularly exercising outdoors in areas of the UK where it is now present etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Scarlet wrote: |
@abc, but presumably one of the reasons the price is so high is the low uptake. I'm not suggesting that there should be given that TBE cannot be transmitted by humans, but if there were a vaccine drive of the scale of a disease like measles, I expect the price per unit would drop significantly.
In Austria, I believe certain groups can be vaccinated for free – farmers and other land workers, I think, possibly also children. However, there are still awareness drives among the population to improve uptake despite the cost. |
How much does it cost in Austria for those who pay for it? I‘m coming from a Swiss perspective where it costs around 70 CHF a shot (3 shots required), but even so, 32 pounds doesn‘t seem unreasonably expensive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've always been alert to ticks (to the extent that I was diagnosed with shingles when I went to the walk in with what I thought might be a tick bite on my back) but wasn't aware of the TBE vaccine. Guess I should get a round tuit given hiking in bracken areas etc.
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@Gämsbock, it was about €50/shot, though it may be a little more now. Not far off 70 CHF, probably. I think the £32 quoted might be the "internal" price, so it may cost more to the patient – it's not loads, but would almost certainly be a barrier to people wanting to vaccinate a family at £100+ pp for a course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Gämsbock, The Boots website says the price is £65/shot, so it's about the same cost to the patient. There is possibly less disposable income available in the UK, and generally people are not used to paying for vaccinations (except maybe the flu jab, but I think that's only about £15). The biggest barrier is still probably awareness though – people often don't know what TBE is, nor that there is a vaccine for it (I didn't).
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