 Poster: A snowHead
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The Chamonix Marie together with the CMB have agreed to rebuild the fire damaged top ticket section. It should start next summer and take three years. Cost 100mil euros. Capacity 700 per hour. It will include work to the skiing area.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jbob, well!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Perhaps I'm missing something, but 3 years seems like a really long time, for what is one of the main lifts. Even taking into account covid I couldn't image the tram at Jackson hole for example being down for so long.
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@boarder2020, it’s on a glacier which makes it tougher.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jbob wrote: |
| The Chamonix Marie together with the CMB have agreed to rebuild the fire damaged top ticket section. It should start next summer and take three years. Cost 100mil euros. Capacity 700 per hour. It will include work to the skiing area. |
What took them so long to decide - securing the funding? 3 years to rebuild it seems ridiculously long? Surely the foundations are already there?
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@BobinCH, insurers couldn't agree the funding is what I heard
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It will be a major rebuild. At the top station my guess is that they will want to do away with the steel stairs. My main concern is the big increase in the number of skiers per hour. I suspect they are thinking long term when shady high glaciers will be the only places to ski at all!
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Perhaps I'm missing something, but 3 years seems like a really long time, for what is one of the main lifts. Even taking into account covid I couldn't image the tram at Jackson hole for example being down for so long. |
It's all a nasty joke. From and engineering and even a logistics standpoint there was no reason it couldn't have been re opened in time for the same winter as it burned down. Unfortunatley the Maire of Chamonix has no interest in serving the majority of the people who live an play here. Their current removal of parking, narrowing of roads and building of bike lanes that go nowhere ar proof enough of that. But then again what can you do with a ruling dynasty since 1946!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Idris, not helped that there are no penalty clauses in CdMB contract 
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Gosh, that's a lot of money.
700 pax per hour
times, say, 9 hours = 6300 per day
times 365 = 2.3 million per year
times, say, €10 = €23 million per year
So (forgetting interest payments and running costs) if everyone contributes €10 per trip, it's gonna take over 4 years to pay that back even if the thing is working flat out, all day, every day - and never breaks down!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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What was it before ? 700 pph would be about the same as a single Poma tow. There are two runs from the top and enough space to stand around and presumably the customers will arrive in pulses rather than continuously?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| jbob wrote: |
| The Chamonix Marie together with the CMB have agreed to rebuild the fire damaged top ticket section. It should start next summer and take three years. Cost 100mil euros. Capacity 700 per hour. It will include work to the skiing area. |
What took them so long to decide - securing the funding? 3 years to rebuild it seems ridiculously long? Surely the foundations are already there? |
They are using the same contractor for the repair as Cairngorm (for the funicular)  .
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| the old capacity was 700 person/hour anyway so no change |
When I first read this figure, I assumed it must be wrong for the new cable car. To have the same low capacity as a 1960s lift seems absolutely incredible for the modern era of 150 person and double decker cable cars.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@altis, previously is was (?) €60 / trip if you didn't have an "Unlimited" ticket.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It was just a number I picked out of the air as a contribution from a day ticket.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@altis, no worries, just a bit on the low side!
I suspect what’s being seen is simply approval from this departmentale committee and LD are somewhat reading between the lines. I.e. details to be firmed up later.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It’s one of the Alps signature lifts so in reality is probably worth 20-30% of the lift pass but unless the MBU pass price goes up or visitor numbers increase significantly there’s little net gain to revenue.
And it’s only open Dec to April and then possibly a couple of months in the Summer. Only the AdM is open year round.
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At 700pph it would be about half the uplift capacity of La Saulire or the Cime du Caron but it is almost twice as long and lifts twice as high as those lifts. The Grande Motte at Tignes moves about 1000 pph but is much shorter and lifts only a third of the height of the Montets.
The Grands Montets cable car is probably more comparable with the Felskinn at Sass Fee in terms of length and climb.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Peter S wrote: |
At 700pph it would be about half the uplift capacity of La Saulire or the Cime du Caron but it is almost twice as long and lifts twice as high as those lifts. The Grande Motte at Tignes moves about 1000 pph but is much shorter and lifts only a third of the height of the Montets.
The Grands Montets cable car is probably more comparable with the Felskinn at Sass Fee in terms of length and climb. |
Interesting, pertinent points, PS.
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I was under the impression that historically (i.e. prior to burning down) they had decided in previous years not to spend money increasing capacity because the glacier is relatively dangerous.
I.E. restricting numbers reduces the number of people going off piste in glacier terrain without the appropriate gear/techniques(/high mountain guide) to rescue from crevasses.
Does seem to have taken a lot of time to determine how to fix it. Though I suspect some of the issues are how many alterations should be done (do you move the top station to be closer to current snow(/ice) depth; Checking foundations (given last time I was in Cham, Bouchard was also shut for a period, I gather due to concerns about the foundations of some pylons possibly moving due to ice melting (n.b. I suspect this is subject to chinese whispers + translation error as to what was actually wrong).
And finally the insurance issue; I thought there was a debate as to whether the contractor was liable and/or sufficiently insured to cover the fire and no doubt debate about what the lift was worth (as a new lift is betterment for lift co vs a lift in the middle of major refurbishment due to age)
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According to this report (in French), there's a public meeting this evening in Argentière to discuss the project, and the call for bids from constructors is reaching its end (if my translation is correct).
As the OP @jbob said, the cost of the project is 100 million euros, a considerable sum.
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@qwerty360, (apparently) much of the time taken has been persuading all the insurance companies involved to pay out 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Based on the plans I've seen today (which may have been around for a while), the rebuilding looks like it will materially reduce the size of the GM car park - removing the overflow/long stay P2 and P3, landscaping some of the rest with trees etc. There's also a notation for entry/exit barriers on the plans, suggesting it might become a fee-paying car park.
Hopefully this will coincide with an increase in the frequency of buses on the route; if not, it could make GM much emptier if fewer people can actually get to the start of the new lift.
Not sure what it means for those of us who used to rely on leaving their cars in the long-stay there.
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The best mountain in the Alps seems wasted on the French!?
https://www.skiweekend.com/blog/first-images-of-the-new-grands-montets-lift-released-feb-2022-update
I dunno, but this rebuild plan leaves me so underwhelmed about what they're doing.
So an accident happens - most resorts build back better.
Here, CdMB are plannjng to build back with no increase in capacity, reducing amenities like car parks & other, and taking 8 years to do it!?
If this is really the best they could come up with, perhaps they'd have been better handing the whole of Argentiere over to the Swiss, or the Austrian lift companies for 10-15 years, and see what could & should be done. I.e. increase the amenity, improve the infrastructure & improve the whole resort.
(& derive your revenue & payback from that)
Seems like such a wasted opportunity imho for my previously favourite mountain & resort 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Does better always equal increased capacity? I don’t think it does.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm not sure how many other areas have to content with being a UNESCO world heritage site, which must complicate the rebuilding somewhat. A marked, patrolled skin track, as originally planned post fire, could have made it one of the ultimate intermediate touring destinations.
The transport frustration for me is that the train is so under-developed. A good service (2x trains of 2x size), combined with the oft-debated direct link from the train station to the ski lift, would solve the traffic & parking problems. In turn that would alleviate the traffic jams, so the buses could run on time, and it would be a virtuous circle.
Instead the Marie narrowed the road, built a cycle lane that managed to make it (certainly feel - maybe not actually) more dangerous for cyclists, and left an hourly train service that is overwhelmed.
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| Inboard wrote: |
| Does better always equal increased capacity? I don’t think it does. |
I'm not sure why anyone would really want to increase capacity, given that the area in question always gets tracked out in a couple of hours anyway. More skiers doesn't mean better skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think that’s been posted on here before and it turned out it wasn’t correct about the capacity.
The shrinking car park will undoubtedly be true though seeing what they’ve done at Le Tour.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@snowdave, +1 to both (skinning track and better trains). Could be amazing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I'm not sure how many other areas have to content with being a UNESCO world heritage site, which must complicate the rebuilding somewhat
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The whole of the Dolomites?
Sounds like a complete farce to me but French bureaucracy can be an amazing thing?! It was an unbelievable access point for skiing and should be reinstated. Wether increasing the capacity would take away some of the magic though?... It was always pretty awesome to be up there with hardly anyone else around once the initial rush off the cable car had dispersed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Inboard wrote: |
| @snowdave, +1 to both (skinning track and better trains). Could be amazing. |
+2 - Absolutely, I agree that a skinning track & better trains could & should have been done over the last 5 years, they'd both be fabulous enhancements to the whole resort & valley imho.
Then possibly rebuilding a GM lift with merely the old capacity reinstated could possibly work out someway ok, as the skinning track would serve to open up more of the mountain for more skiers, more of the time. That could work well & tie into current ski trends well too.
What Argentiere & Chamonix appears to be getting is no real action, followed 8 years later by a seemingly half arsed reinstatement job, which I can't see is adding much if anything to previously very outdated infrastructure unfortunately.
Big opportunity missed imho (for whatever reasons...) - pity!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 16-01-24 0:21; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I didn’t think it was a designated World Heritage Site ?
There is talk about an application?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
+1 to both (skinning track and better trains). Could be amazing.
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Agreed that would have been a great result. I'm not sure opening that glaciated terrain back up with a re-built GM lift to people that aren't touring and with proper equipment/guide/knowledge for crevasse rescue is a good idea.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Amazed it has taken so long.
As mentioned the "GM top-bin" is one of the most iconic lifts in the alps.
(along with Aiguille du Midi, Mt Gele, Valuga and La Grave tram etc)
A few thoughts:
i) I am told many local skiers have got used to the lift not being there.
60 minute skin for guaranteed high altitude powder lap seen as a good thing for the valley
Certainly there is mixed feeling about lift being replaced (especially as touring becomes more mainstream)
ii) The downside of GM lift being absent is longer time taken to access to the Argentierre basin.
Many of the classic steep lines no longer easily accessible in a day by mere-mortals.
iii) Limiting the capacity arguably a good thing?
High speed lift would ruin what previously made GM so unique.
The GM is a lift you take for a special run (powder in the basin, pas de chevre etc).
FWIW : I suspect they will eventually replace the lift.
Unless you wish to go up the midi its presence was surely the main reason to buy more expensive "Mont Blanc unlimited" (rather than Le Pass).
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@Haggis_Trap, you're not keeping up. Demolition has mostly happened and reconstruction starts come the spring.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, you're not keeping up. Demolition has mostly happened and reconstruction starts come the spring. |
Good news (unless you are local who likes lift accessed touring)
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