Does skiing in powder use a different set of muscle groups or use muscle differently? I tend to lean a bit backwards (while still keeping my shins constantly press against the tongue of the boots). It is more tiring (which is a given I think) but then my muscles are hurting in different places. My upper quads tend to burn when skiing on hard packed but my lower quads seem to hurt more when in powder. So just wondering if it’s usual or is my stance a bit off?
As background I’m comfortable skiing down any pistes in most conditions but don’t have much opportunities to ski powder.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It probably is a stance thing, and related to your fore-aft balance. In general your quads should not be burning when piste skiing, and in general they do so because your are leaning back. Of course if you really push it, do a lot of bumps and variable terrain you might get a bit of muscle fatigue overall. But quads “burning” when piste skiing should not be happening!
A good instructor is the answer of course. You sound like you are at a pretty good level so it won’t take much for an instructor to diagnose the issue and give you strategies to address whatever is going on.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@zikomo, thanks potentially burning might not be the best description. I just wanted to highlight the muscle group used but I do get some general fatigue in my quads normally from mid afternoon onwards.
I do get normally one or two lessons in a season (and I aim/hope to ski around 3/4 weeks in a season) just that it’s not often you get fresh powder. The instructors (depending on who though) go off piste with me sometimes but I tend to manage those not too deep powder and they don’t have much to say on that. Perhaps I should stress to them next time this is an area I want to work on.
imo, if you have the right skis then muscle groups should not be much differrent to piste skiing (technique of course is different however). The thing about leaning back is more when you don't have the right rockers on the ski tips to help the skis float, or the bindings are not located in the best position. So the equipment makes a difference.
But I'm no pow expert either as same as you, not had a lot of opportunity to ski those conditions but am improving. Like when learning piste skiing, it's very hard work on the muscles when learning, but gets less strenuous as you improve technique and can relax more.
There are some great tuition videos on youtube that I've learnt a lot from, at least the theory of it..
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
In daily cat/ heli we'd get a lot of back seat skiers, who were often surprised to discover that's what they were. At resorts there's generally a base (the piste or skier-pisted snow), which means your balance is less critical. Rockered skis help with that too.
But you can learn where your weight should be entirely on hardpack; I did it on plastic And it's never "in the back seat". I'd ask those instructors to work on that, then the powder thing'll fix itself.
@euanovsky, you don't lean backwards in powder, burning quads is a classic sign of a stance issue (sitting on the toilet) , a good instructor should be able to spot and fix it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Another point is that freshly fallen, unpisted, snow is not necessarily "powder". It can also be heavy, clagging, leg-breaking stuff which, for most of us mere mortals, is really hard to ski, especially after it's been churned up for half a day.
If you can pick up a handful and make a snowball to throw at somebody, it ain't "powder" in my book.
After all it is free
After all it is free
phil_w wrote:
In daily cat/ heli we'd get a lot of back seat skiers, who were often surprised to discover that's what they were. At resorts there's generally a base (the piste or skier-pisted snow), which means your balance is less critical. Rockered skis help with that too.
Rockers do, indeed, rock.
As for the sitting back, I still come across people who think that's what they should do in powder, and have to point out that although it may sometimes look that way the skier should still be +-perpendicular to the ski, it's just that the ski is often not parallel with the apparent snow surface, being higher at the front where it's lifted up and much lower at the back where it's sunk. It still looks like they're leaning back, but only wrt the snow, not the skis.
Having said that, the OP claims that he always keeps his shins pulled tight to the boot fronts, which if true means that leaning back is not what's happening there. Pulling/holding the kness forward like that is often what people need to address their bacon skiing, and the act of doing so automatically gets the weight in a better place wrt the skis. If you're managing to lean back with your shins hard against the boots then there's something very odd happening with the upper body.
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This video gives some straightforward advice and may help.
It covers everything from equipment, to the problems of leaning back, to the similarities with Piste skiing, to turn shape and speed.
When I had a lesson in powder (nice snow on a pisted base on a moderate black run, nothing extreme) I was progressively getting lower with each turn. A couple of quite decent ones, as the instructor stood looking back at the slop watching, then each turn I was squatting down lower. He was shouting to remind me to stand up, and I was failing. I "knew" I needed to be more up, and over, the skis, but........
Sometimes people on snowheads describe themselves as "aggressive" skiers. I would describe myself as the opposite - I liked to think of myself as a "calm and relaxed" skier and I liked to ski with music and get the feel of "dancing" down the slope. But in deeper snow I think you need a bit of "attack" if not aggression even though good skiers make it look effortless.
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@Old Fartbag, funnily enough I was watching that video last night and yeah he talks about the problems the OP seems to be having (leaning back).
It was interesting in that vid him talking about the skis used and binding position. Personally I use all mountain skis (as it makes sense for to only own one pair and I have to take what comes, I can't say oh it's a powder day). And I've never experimented with binding position.
Personally in my younger days I had the OP problem but as I've done more and more off piste and got better at skiing in general I don't find it's an issue any more.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Layne wrote:
... It was interesting in that vid him talking about the skis used and binding position. Personally I use all mountain skis (as it makes sense for to only own one pair and I have to take what comes, I can't say oh it's a powder day). And I've never experimented with binding position...
I didn't look at the video; I'm a snowboarder. But with snowboards... if the board has taper and is directional, you can ride reference stance. If you ride a twin board though, you typically will need a cm or so of set-back. Probably that's the same physics you're talking about. But what you do is start on the reference stance. Only if you're repeatedly falling over the front of the board should you ever move the stance back, and even then you should do it the minimum possible.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
phil_w wrote:
I didn't look at the video; I'm a snowboarder. But....
Just cut straight to 10:30 ish
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Re the (good) video, I think starting with the gear is pretty reasonable. There are some people out there who can ski bottomless powder on 165cm FIS slaloms but the fore/aft balance skills required to do that are not a reasonable aspiration for holiday/recreational skiers. In one of the earlier Blister podcasts Julien Regnier made an aside on how much ski he wants in front of the boot before he considers the ski good in powder. He mentioned that for his height/weight its about 100cm. I guess there may be people who know more about powder ski design than him but I'm also guessing that's a pretty short list.
Anyhow, IMV, knowing that number for yourself is pretty important and it's not a bad starting point for thinking about ski sizing and mount point preferences. Being able to hold yourself in a good stance and not worrying about stuffing the tips is kind of key. It follows that there's a lot of emphasis on ski width - or at least there used to be - but it's less important than how much shovel you've got.
Regarding attitude. I think there are points skiing natural snow where you want to be more aggressive. But I don't think powder is one of them. For me, it's about stance and flow - everything happens slightly slower. It's more of a finesse thing.
Usual disclaimers - I'm not an instructor. I used to ski a lot and now I have children - etc. etc.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
I used to ski a lot and now I have children
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I posted a video on getting into powder snow (aka a mini guide / lesson) for the first time on my instagram feed yesterday it so happens. Check out @SteveAngusSnow and you'll see my little video I posted along with other tip lessons in general... many many more being recorded and prepared for publication all the time!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Steve Angus, the first time I ever tried to ski off-piste, the (Swiss) instructor told us to 'bounce'. I never did discover what that meant! Jump a little bit? And/or roll your feet a bit? And/or squat slightly? Too late for me to try doing whatever it is, sadly, as I don't venture off-piste any more, but I'm still curious to know what it was I never got the hang of!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I would not worry too much about skiing in powder ... its only a myth thing.
It only appears in your dreams.
@Steve Angus, the first time I ever tried to ski off-piste, the (Swiss) instructor told us to 'bounce'. I never did discover what that meant! Jump a little bit? And/or roll your feet a bit? And/or squat slightly? Too late for me to try doing whatever it is, sadly, as I don't venture off-piste any more, but I'm still curious to know what it was I never got the hang of!
It's very like bouncing on a trampoline - it compresses the snow under the skis and forms a platform which the skis ride up into a float phase where the skis can be turned into next turn.
I believe there is some sort of song about it but not sure that will help with the technicalities
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
There's powder and there's untracked snow. I think in the heavy stuff (e.g.Sierra Cement) one needs to be a little bit aft of the position they'd be in for true powder. At Snowbird Junior Bounous used the term "contraction and extension" in describing the desired action in powder. That resonated with me.
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowheid wrote:
It's very like bouncing on a trampoline - it compresses the snow under the skis and forms a platform which the skis ride up into a float phase where the skis can be turned into next turn.
I believe there is some sort of song about it but not sure that will help with the technicalities
I'm pretty sure that ain't going to work, you are moving remember, so you make the platform then you've moved off it!! Bouncing up and down is very old skool straight ski stuff IMHO
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Quote:
Bouncing up and down is very old skool straight ski stuff IMHO
It is, but top level ski instructors are still teaching it now so still works with todays skis
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@snowheid, not sure they are!! (at least the BASI full cert ones I've skied with recently!)
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Surely it depends size turn you want to make? If you bounce, like on a trampoline, you are going to have a relatively quick turn cadence, making tight turns (so called Powder-8s, if you sync with a buddy). But bouncing doesn’t work if you want to make turns with a lower cadence such as a more open, longer radius or a slow roll from side to side taking a fairly direct line down a relatively gentle slope. Different types of turn will require different timing and different movement patterns.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@kitenski, fwiw, when I think of platforming, my skis are the platform, not the snow. Yes, definitely from the skinny skis era, but still helpful. I tried a monoski once, perhaps the ultimate extension of the idea.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
a relatively quick turn cadence, making tight turns
This, erm, does sound like @snowheid
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
kitenski wrote:
@snowheid, not sure they are!! (at least the BASI full cert ones I've skied with recently!)
Have a look at Steve Angus' Instagram- that's why I addressed my post to him.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@rob@rar, but what IS bouncing? Is it little repeated squats? Surely they wouldn't, of themselves, make you change direction, even slightly.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Hurtle, ah cheers yes that makes sense now to me, I was envisaging old skool poppy unweighting as the bounce!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Surely it depends size turn you want to make? If you bounce, like on a trampoline, you are going to have a relatively quick turn cadence, making tight turns (so called Powder-8s, if you sync with a buddy). But bouncing doesn’t work if you want to make turns with a lower cadence such as a more open, longer radius or a slow roll from side to side taking a fairly direct line down a relatively gentle slope. Different types of turn will require different timing and different movement patterns.
+1
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thank you all. All very good advice and will take some time to digest.
Just to clarify one point while I may lean back further than the usual stance on piste I don't think I lean back lean back as my shins are constantly pressed against the boots (and I'm quite conscious of that).
One other issue which might be related is I just don't have as much confidence skiing in powder. I worry the tip of my skis could get stuck in the snow and I may break something. So I don't tend to go as fast but I understand you need some speed to turn and to unweighted and weight your skis. So I transverse across quite a bit instead of turning around the fall line.
I will probably get some lessons next time focusing solely on powder skiing (conditions permitted!)
@snowheid, do you have a link? I think I was thinking something very different to what @@Steve Angus, posted on Insta
Unfortunately behind a pay wall but it is certainly something that I have seen demonstrated many times over the years. I think the main problem here is trying to describe a complex series of movements in text and a lot of confusion has ensued. For example the cadence thing is very valid but also in virgin powder a lot of different techniques will work fine.
I will try to find a video that demonstrates what I think of as 'bouncing' and post it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@snowheid, cheers! Don't worry that much if it is hard to find, off skiing tomorrow
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowheid wrote:
Quote:
Bouncing up and down is very old skool straight ski stuff IMHO
It is, but top level ski instructors are still teaching it now so still works with todays skis
That's how I was taught too!
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FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
And it's never "in the back seat". I'd ask those instructors to work on that, then the powder thing'll fix itself.
