Excellent video for those that get drawn into the "do I need winter tyres" spiral each year. Chains, cables, snowsocks and some other ropey solutions go up against extreme winter tyres. As a snow sock runner the results corelated with my experience and keep me spiraling another year....
Would of liked to have seen a can of the snow grip my colleague claimed was his winter saviour debunked at the same time!
Yes saw that. Gone from a golf with winter tyres on second set of cheap wheels to car with vast wheel size where i cant justify it. So at tyre change time ahead of its first alps trip ive gone for all seasons with 3pmsf and will get chains for deep snow and ice. That vid confirms this approach in my mind.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
He's obviously a British guy doing the tests in the US, so it's noteworthy that he commented that all season tires in the US are not the same as all season tyres in Europe since the US ones don't meet the 3PMSF standard and have very little snow capability (in fact he says with some justification the US ones should be called 3 season tires )
Interesting stuff.... we've gone for 3pmsf all season tyres with easyfit, drape over and drive away chains in the boot, worth the expense since we now live on the edge of the french compulsory winter kit zone (although we have yet needed to test any of it in real world conditions!)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I would note that my experience over many uses in the US is that in reality cables while not necessarily as simple a fit as he makes out when lying in a pool of slush are adequate on most gradients with care e.g. approach higher grades with some momentum and only really suffer when the snow lies over a softer surface like gravel or unfrozen dirt.
That against the risk of full chains wrapping round the axle.
Yes actually a winter tyre comparison video I watched all the way through, but that's probably because I've only recently wrote a feature on snowchains / tyres / socks combined with a Q&A with a snow-chain expert, and there are some major differences between the tyrereview guy and the snowchain guy on the pros & cons of snow socks, along with some other points, namely buy the right chain and they are easy to fit, unlike snow socks.
Plus in France, if you have All Seasons you will have to also have chains, plus dependent on vehicle even with winters you might still need chains.
For my own part I have 4WD along with top-of-the-range Michelin Pilot Alpin 5's and also pack a pair of quality Konig chains, and this to me is also where the video reviewer does not really go with like for like, as he has nigh on the best winter tyre you can buy which he compares to a cheapo set of chains, rather than something like the Thule K-Summit?
Anyway here's a snow-chain experts take on things after my intro as it were.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I inly read so much of the article, but it's eye rolling that so many people think 4wd is all they need in snow.
Test videos and mybown experience is that 2wd with all seasons will easily beat 4wd with summers.
My ex would drive into the snow covered school car park, on wide, low profile tyres on a 2wd mpv, past the stuck & side sliding 4x4s, drop the kids & go.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Surely it's the brakes that matter not the drive. If you lose traction on the drive you come to a stop, on braking you don't.
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I have found blizzaks winter tyres paired with 4WD have yet to let me down.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Out of curiosity, what sort of roads (apart from snowy ones obviously! ) are you driving that need chains?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
stuarth wrote:
Out of curiosity, what sort of roads (apart from snowy ones obviously! ) are you driving that need chains?
For me it’s only ever been final stages of the resort’s access road, after leaving the main road running along the valley. Only used chains a couple of times in the last 10+ years (always have winter tyres, sometimes have All Wheel Drive) and it’s been for a relatively steep section of road where uphill traction is very limited, typically by compressed snow covering the road. A few times I’ve seen local police require cars to fit chains/snow socks at greater distance from the resort, where there’s maybe 10km or more driving required along main roads and access roads before you reach the resort, but that’s been in the middle of a snow storm.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
tangowaggon wrote:
I inly read so much of the article, but it's eye rolling that so many people think 4wd is all they need in snow.
Test videos and mybown experience is that 2wd with all seasons will easily beat 4wd with summers.
My ex would drive into the snow covered school car park, on wide, low profile tyres on a 2wd mpv, past the stuck & side sliding 4x4s, drop the kids & go.
My company car was a Landrover Freelander with normal M+S tyres. In the snow I would abandon it and use my Honda accord with Continental winter contact.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@rob@rar,
Interesting.
I can see needing chains for some super steep side roads (luckily, I live on a fairly flat bit of the mountain and the district keeps roads pretty well cleared and gritted), but a bit surprised about a main road.
Mostly when I've been stuck on a more significant road in a storm its because someone crashed, or avalanche danger closed the roads somewhere ahead. In the city there's a good chance it's because a bendy bus tried to drive up a moderately steep and icy hill without winter tires and didn't make it!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I noticed today that my van tyres are marked M&S (no rating symbol) theyre dreadful on any slippy surface, even when new.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@stuarth, I suppose it depends on what you mean by main road. For example, rhe main road running along the Tarentaise valley (accessing the massive resorts of La Plagne, Les Arcs, La Rosiere, St Foy, Tignes and Val d’Isere) is mostly one lane in each direction, occasionally with a reasonable incline and some switchbacks. It’s not often that chains are required, but when the snow is coming down extremely hard there’s going to be plenty of vehicles struggling for grip, especially those without winter tyres (which will be a pretty large proportion of visitors if the snow is falling on a Saturday).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
stuarth wrote:
Out of curiosity, what sort of roads (apart from snowy ones obviously! ) are you driving that need chains?
Interesting in that I've just been driven back by a Swede who's lived above La Grave for nigh on 30yrs hubby a guide, and twas 23:00 and commune gives up clearing the main road after 19:00 since that was when we drove up, and in her words the road ( flat valley road*) was treacherous though she loved the challenge of driving in those conditions. 10+ cms of wet slippery snow with temps around +0.5.
We made her drop us off at the bottom of our 17%+ hill though she was up for tackling it
*sort of conditions where I've seen cars off the road in the morning
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 10-12-23 8:00; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
tangowaggon wrote:
I noticed today that my van tyres are marked M&S (no rating symbol) theyre dreadful on any slippy surface, even when new.
Don't by from Marks and Spencer then
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@tangowaggon Unfortunately, M&S on its own doesn’t mean much more than it’s tread pattern is chunky. Which will help in mud and help a little in snow. But the compound chemistry of the rubber won’t be cold-biased; the tread pattern won’t be designed to reduce aquaplaning; and it won’t have sipes that help the tread warm up and hold snow for better traction.
@stuarth Today is a good example of when you need chains even for an AWD with full winter tyres. Temps were above 0C in the village yesterday afternoon after a period of snowfall, so there was a lot of melt and slush. Overnight it dipped below zero and this morning, any untreated surfaces are simply solid ice. It doesn’t look that bad, but it is. Without chains, we wouldn’t be able to get out if we had been leaving for an earlier flight. The thee times I’ve had to fit chains in recent years have all been in similar circumstances - not a blizzard and not that cold, but freeze-thaw situations that were quite prosaic yet treacherous.
On the way to the shops for bread and croissants, I turned back because the road to the village centre from the apartments was an ice sheet. Fortunately, we have clip-on crampons in our cave and with these, it was easy to get around. These really are a life-saver when you need them.
Because if cars with winter tyres need chains, then cars with all-seasons will need them even more so.
And you have to see it from the point of view of police who are trying to keep traffic moving on a mountain road. If conditions are extreme, then it’s better to impose the requirement on everyone, even if people with snow-biased all-seasons or winters might be OK. And even with winters, people will have varying degrees of wear on their tyres, so capabilities may vary, even if it’s a quality brand. Imposing the need for chains on everyone means they know everyone should be able to get around OK.
This is why it annoys me that car rental companies happily hire out cars with no chains. It’s not because with 4WD and winter tyres you don’t need them - because sometimes you do. It’s simply cost and logistical convenience for the rental company. They don’t want people to hire cheap 2WD cars with chains: they want to upgrade you to more lucrative AWD vehicles. And they do this by presenting you with a fait accompli that they simply don’t have chains available / you don’t need them.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 10-12-23 10:55; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Depends where you are and what you drive. I've done full seasons with AWD and all-season tyres and never come close to needing chains. Neither have the gendarmes told me I need them - they've always waved me through.
After all it is free
After all it is free
It doesn’t depend on where you are and what you drive. It depends on the probability that on the day you have to drive to/from the airport or to get to /leave your accommodation, conditions will be such that you’ll need them. As a resident, will probably have had the option to defer driving until conditions are better. For most SnowHeads, the days they drive are fixed and can’t be changed, because they’re on a holiday. I’ve been to the Alps multiple times each season over the last 20 years. I’ve only needed chains three times. So a 1 in 7 chance, roughly. Other people have never needed them, some have needed them more often. The point is that there’s a probability that you’ll need them and if you do, there’s no alternative.
Last edited by After all it is free on Sun 10-12-23 11:04; edited 1 time in total
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I've also done two seasons as a full time driver with definitely no choice over when I drive in order to meet transfer schedules. I have never had to put chains on an AWD vehicle with winter rated tyres - only ever two wheel drive.
Too much scaremongering on here.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
No, it’s not scaremongering. You are generalising from your individual experience and saying that no one, under any circumstances, will need chains if they have all-season or winter tyres. This is very bad advice.
It’s a nuanced judgement about the probability that you’ll need chains. Of course, if it’s April and you’re at 1000m the odds are very low. Whereas in January at 1800m it’s a lot higher. That’s all I’m saying.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
And you are generalising that everyone will!
And no, I did not say this either. You are putting words in my mouth:
LaForet wrote:
You are generalising from your individual experience and saying that no one, under any circumstances, will need chains if they have all-season or winter tyres.
I said it depends where you are and what you drive. I made a very clear distinction between 2wd and 4wd and made it very clear that 4wd + winter rated tyres has never been an issue in my fairly considerable experience as a full time resort and transfer driver.
2wd is a different matter.
There are always extremes of probability and you can make an argument for anything if you're stubborn enough. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
An endlessly debatable topic.
My thoughts:
--The reviewer didn't test my favorite, which is the webbed socks. Those work nearly as well as metal chains, are incredibly easy to put on, although you have to watch your speed when cornering, they're kind of expensive and you won't get more than 15 days' use out of them unless you're toodling along at 25kph.
--It's much easier to put on socks if you turn the wheels 45 degrees, too...especially if you have very little wheel well clearance.
--What we've found, having a house at the top of a col in the Haute Savoie, and myself having grown up in a very wintry area, is that if you drive regularly you absolutely need true winter-rated tires. Not only for snow, but also for cold mornings when the road is sort of dusted with overnight icy parts. Remember that winter tires have colder grip ratings.
--If you're only going skiing for a week or two, then chains or good socks over all-season tires will be fine.
--Having had a light, 4wd pickup in the U.S. (First-gen Toyota Tacoma / Hilux), throw on a set of winter tires and you're pretty much unstoppable.
--If you expect to be going downhill for a significant distance, especially with curves, I think you need to go with chains or the webbed socks on top of snow tires (if theyr'e already on). Once you lock up the front wheels it's all over, ABS won't stop the car.
--Modern cars with winter mode are also nice, especially if you have AWD and torque vectoring.
--That said, putting on chains is just not fun unless you have a heated garage. Certainly not fun on the side of the road.
--And, winter driving technique: Drive like you have an egg behind the gas and brake pedals.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Agree with Passigal for the casual user.
How often do you encounter sheet ice? All the roads you should have to use will be gritted and treated and ploughed?
I just think chains are such a pain in the hole to put on that snow socks are a much more attractive option for the casual visitor in a rental car, and give you enough to get through. On in a minute compared to usually 10 - 20 minutes with a high risk of not actually putting them on right or being unable to put them on right or at all. i've bought chains for my car at home and even with that knowledge struggle to get them on and wouldn't fancy doing it on the side of a strange road in the cold. Instead I just brought a pair of the snow socks home and jus throw them on for the few hundred meters of snowy road I'd be driving once or twice a year here.
If I was living in the Alps and likely to be driving obscure roads I would 100% have Winter tyres and chains but even then you could probably just avoid driving in the conditions when you'd need them. For the renter you will also get Winter tyres in Germany, Austria and Switzerland thankfully. Its France, Italy and Spain that you'll end up needing socks / chains.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@8611, good point about just avoiding really, really bad conditions, like sheet ice. There's no point in endangering yourself or your car just to go skiing. Hard to do, of course, if you've invested thousands in a ski holiday!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I think snow socks try and emulate the job of winter tyres (not quite as well especially as they'd wear on mixed surfaces) but as confirmed in OPs video socks are no solution for hard ice.
Quote:
How often do you encounter sheet ice? All the roads you should have to use will be gritted and treated and ploughed?
"Should" being the operative word here....what if you have to leave resort at 5:30am and the rain washed the grit away the night before and it's now frozen. What if the snow plough guy called in sick....etc etc.
We're talking v v rare probabilities here, hence the accusation of scare mongering by a poster above. The many chains that are for sale on ebay as unused attest to this....but the chance you might have to come down an icy mountain road, with the family on board and no effective braking, is why the authorities insist and why I'll be buying some.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 10-12-23 15:08; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The first year we went to Les Arcs for New Year I was very thankful we had winter tyres and chains. The Gendarmes closed the road all the way up from BSM in the valley whilst they attempted to clear the worst of the snow. They then only let cars which had chains fitted up the mountain. We finally arrived at 1am, but without chains we would have been trying to find somewhere to overnight in the valley which would have been a disaster with your children! If you buy chains and don't use them count yourself lucky, your have avoided getting cold and wet at the roadside, they are then just insurance / reassurance.
As an aside, I put winter tyres on my cars in the UK as I have been amazed at the difference on cruddy frozen lanes and in light snow. I live rural North West and gritters are a rare sight on anything other than major roads and frozen snow shaded by hedges can sit on the lanes for many days. They really are that good and allow me to continue working when others would stay at home. (My business, so that is a good thing!) The only problem when it snows is the other drivers who don't have winters and snarl up the roads!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@8611, in the last 24hrs, as I mentioned above, the main Briancon Grenoble road was treacherous at 22:30 last evening with 10cm+ of slushy snow.
And then this morning, I had to drive in order to get to first lifts, and again winter tyres come into their own.
Plus should add that many others drive to the parking area and I'd guesstimate 97% have winter tyres as vast % are French and probably are regular visitors / second home owners / locals as the tourists will not arrive for another ten or so days.
But like has been stated gendarmes in bad conditions will be checking, and probably even more so this year given the new rules.
And then when it all is too much they close the col and if traveling from Grenoble and that happens it's a extra 3hr detour!
@Je suis un Skieur, where were you driving as some resorts are kept much clearer than say here?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
In many years driving I only ever had to fit chains on the Col du Lauteret. That was at Easter too!
@Weathercam, yeah 100% I'd have them if living in the Alps, no brainer, but you are *mostly* ok on short trips and if you keep an eye on the weather
@MHskier, to be fair it isn't necessarily that rare, I've done maybe 30 trips with rental cars, most last minute trips booked to coincide with heavy snow fall due. I'd always avoid red-eye flights so wouldn't be up early.
That said, one trip last year I went to La Thuile, for the first time ever using broker sites to book the car, one with winter tyres came up (Italian airport). I said I may as well and was super lucky I did. The main road to La Thuile (I think via Courmayeur) was closed due to a land slide. The only way into the resort was up a side road that I doubt is regularly used in Winter. It was insane and car was all over the road even in (allegedly) winter tyres. I say allegedly as the car was old and crap and I am not sure they were Winter tyres at all.
My mate arrived super early the next morning got first bus from Aosta train station to Courmayeur and wanted me to come down and pick up at like 6AM at bottom of road. Not a hope, would have been insane.
I suppose my point is, if you follow the weather and know your limits you will *usually* be ok with socks, but you'd need to keep an eye on weather, avoid very late night or very early morning and ideally choose a resort with a good main road to it or close to it. In my experience most if not all resorts will keep their access road in good condition even with heavy snowfall as they need it to keep the customers coming.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I sort of get the chains thing if you have the chance of having to get in and out of a crazy icy unmaintained road, and if its the law then you best have them...
I've driven about 100km on snow so far this weekend alone - it was pretty brutal visibility wise (light-speed snow!) and also slushy/snow/ice mix yesterday this morning . But I am on winter tires, not chains. This is because the road is ploughed and gritted - do they not plough roads in the Alps? If it's bad enough to need chains, probably best not to be driving unless essential (and no, a ski trip is not "essential") - last year in an ice storm the road to Whistler was a skating rink - the police simply shut down the road until it was safe (without chains).
Fortunately I've not had the need for chains - they only go on the back of my truck anyway which means not using 4WD - 4WD is also highly beneficial even with winter tires; there are plenty of icy slopes that I wouldn't have made it up without it - plus a truck is pretty "exciting" on ice in 2WD!
What I have needed is a locking differential and low range in a few cases.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@stu why you can’t put chains on your 4wd and use 4wd.
Mine have always been no prob. Three x Ford Rangers since 2000.
The ones I’ve had don’t lock up the differential unless you press a button and even then if it’s that slippery it wouldn’t do any damage if it was locked.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Thick As,
Think there's something in the manual somewhere that says not to - I don't have crazy big wheels or anything, but perhaps something to do with brake or suspension parts clearance?
Yeah, also you have to be in neutral to engage low-range and the diff-lock. It's really for really off-road, but also quite handy for getting through deep snow and very slippery conditions (not normal driving)
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I always carry chains, despite driving a 4x4 with either Michelin CC2’s or full winter on (need them when driving here in Scandinavia) - I never needed the chains when in the alps, but still carry them - I don’t know when I will face a situation where I need them, but I bet it will be in a dark and remote place.
On that note - To and from the alps, I actually prefer the CC2 tyres over full Nordic winters - They are so capably in the snow, and much better in/on everything else.
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I’m regularly on dirt roads that would be considered no fall zones if you were skiing them, proper 4wd always required, chains regularly required. Wouldn’t ever mess around with snow socks for that.
One of the local ski fields for me needs a high clearance 4wd, and have to radio up from the bottom to make sure nothing else is coming down, because it’s too narrow to pass another vehicle
It’s all good as long as you don’t drive off the side. I’m super careful about walking or skinning those roads however, huge exposure above and below, so tend to drive some sections as quick as possible to minimise risk of getting pushed off by a slide (which has happened).
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
)
If it's bad enough to need chains, probably best not to be driving unless essential (and no, a ski trip is not "essential") - last year in an ice storm the road to Whistler was a skating rink - the police simply shut down the road until it was safe (without chains).
