 Poster: A snowHead
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Does anyone know of a generally agreed definition of what an "advanced" skier is?
Am I Intermediate or Advanced? Who knows? Is it possible for anyone who only usually skis one week per season to be "advanced" regardless of how many years you've been doing it?
Are you only Advanced if you can effortless ski off-piste with style? Or are you Advanced if you can get down reds and blacks but still struggle with off-piste? Maybe you can get down reds and blacks, but your technique is still fairly amateurish and cannot carve perfect turns.
The truth is I don't think there is such a definition and use of "Intermediate" or "Advanced" terminology is basically meaningless.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Don't worry about it! If you don't like the look of a piste, avoid it if you can. Renting skis, you'll get to know what you like.
I've got probably 30wks skiing but would only grade myself as an 'experienced intermediate'.
So I agree with you! I'd rather ski a red with good style and technique than hack down a black.
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| Quote: |
Is it possible for anyone who only usually skis one week per season to be "advanced" regardless of how many years you've been doing it?
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Lots of people will say yes, but I think that's wishful thinking/ego driven. Go to any sporting coach (running, badminton, golf etc.) and ask them how you can reach an "advanced" level while practicing only 7-14 days per year and they will laugh and tell you that is ridiculous.
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The truth is I don't think there is such a definition and use of "Intermediate" or "Advanced" terminology is basically meaningless.
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There is clearly a difference between "intermediate" and "advanced". You only need the eye test to see. I suspect any decent coach has a pretty good idea from just watching a few turns.
I'd agree that for the most part the terminology is pointless. The general holiday skiers idea of "advanced" tends to be very low imo. It doesn't really make any difference in your day to day skiing whatever you class yourself as.
By definition most people will be intermediate. That's just how normal distribution works.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Is it possible for anyone who only usually skis one week per season to be "advanced" regardless of how many years you've been doing it?
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There's plenty on here...they'll be along shortly
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It’s all relative. If you’re talking about a sliding scale of progression from “just put on skis for first time” to “World Cup, freeride world tour, in videos” then most people will be below half way. And therefore maybe could be called “intermediate”
But if you can ski every piste safely, regardless of condition, in control of speed and line, then you’re probably a decent way above the median skier ability in terms of numbers of skiers. And in terms of people who hire skis your probably one of the more ‘advanced’ skiers (if that is the reason you’re trying to rank yourself)
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I don’t think it matters tbh.
I used to obsess about this kind of thing when I was doing a week of lessons in the alps. I would join an advanced group and was able to ski everything but didn’t enjoy the steeps, ice or moguls.
Dropped to intermediate groups and it was covering old ground on technique, but helped me improve as a skier. And I enjoyed it so much more.
We can all improve our technique so skier level is more focused on what you want to improve and what you enjoy.
Nowadays I could ski any piste if I had to but stick to casual skiing blues and reds because that’s what I enjoy.
What level of skier that makes me doesn’t bother me whatsoever. I ski for myself and do what I enjoy.
IMHO everyone’s either an intermediate or beginner unless you are an instructor.
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Nicely defined groups. The only 'problem' is that, as per the question, not everybody will agree with those definitions for the specific terms used.
I've been familiar with several definition sets like this over the years, from Phil Smith's mob as long ago as the '90s, where the top level included the line 'wears wrap-around Oakleys'  through years of Ski Club GB gradings, then at different ski schools where I've worked.
They're all good in themselves, but not always really compatible with each other. In particular the SCGB ones were always based on what runs you could ski with confidence, not on how technically 'correct' your skiing is. And Ski School ones are used to try and put like-levelled groups together, but are themselves very different, even, for example, between the Swiss Ski School and the ESI-affiliated ones. I suspect some of the differences are deliberately obscure to try to get you to remain within the same system over time.
Anyway, it's just a label, that's all; does it really matter? If it's for lessons then in any case the Ski School isn't really going to listen to your self-defined 'Intermediate' or 'Advanced' but use their own definitions. For equipment I don't think it's going to make much difference, TBH. Obvious mismatches of a beginner using expert skis or boots or vice versa should be, err, obvious, and in between it's very much down to the individual, not simply a 'this is the best ski for Intermediate, this one for Advanced', type of choice.
ETA: some people also use the term Expert, and not always to refer to professional level skiers, so if we include that term in Ski School gradings then both Advanced and Intermediate definitions will clearly be lower than in a grading system that does not.
As for the original question
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| Does anyone know of a generally agreed definition of what an "advanced" skier is? |
the answer is clear - no, there is no generally agreed definition.
Oh, and yes, I still wear wrap-around Oakleys. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes, as you say, @Chaletbeauroc, for GB skiers (Ski Club of GB for example) and for hiring skis, the term "expert" is the third one, and definitely does not mean only instructor level or serious racing level. Gold Level of the Ski Club is certainly expert on these terms, though the Gold Level has got lower since the Gold ski test was discontinued. (The trouble was finding two Gold judges to do the 4 tests, which effectively took 3 or 4 days. This included piste (including moguls), race (usually ESF vermeil level) and powder, plus variable snow (including breakable crust). Your estimated level from a Ski Club rep who has guided you may well be, as you say, largely a matter of what you got down, but the tests at Bronze and Silver are still done (I think, though I may be out of date).
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@snowball, The Silver test was certainly still in operation when I was doing resort leading, up until perhaps mid-2000s and I don't think it was ever discontinued. But even by then it was very rare - I think I only did it two or three times in thirty or so weeks of leading.
The Gold test was, as you say, pretty much dead by then - ISTR there were some doing it when I did the rep's course in 1999, but that would be the only time in a year when you'd be able to get the resources together to do it.
The gradings also varied considerably between reps and members - it was a personal challenge of mine to improve from my Purple Plus grading from the course and I did eventually get to Gold, both off and on piste, which was required in order to lead off-piste holidays. I misremember if I got that (I think I did by a year or three) before I started the Instructor training, but it was immediately clear that even a rep's gold rating, which was probably on a par with the gold test, was not at the technical level required for Basi2, let alone 3. OTOH there were some mountain skills that were much higher in the Ski Club than Basi, especially off piste, which was one area I didn't struggle with, and group management, perhaps not surprisingly. The most surprising was the avalanche and off-piste safety training, which when I did it for the L3 was nowhere near the Ski Club level. We used to do refreshers every three years, with complex set-up multi-victim burial scenarios and all sorts, whereas the L3 just required that you could find a single (or maybe 2) transceivers in a reasonable time.
It did serve to highlight the things mentioned here - one person's Advanced, for a specific subset of skills, could easily be another's Intermediate with a different focus, IYSWIM.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I did my Gold on the earlier "Hot Shots" holidays. Sometime around 1990 I'd guess. I was roped in as an Assistant Gold judge twice, but didn't much enjoy judging people. (partly because one of the people being judged was a friend who sulked after we failed him). The hardest for me was the race since I never did race training so failed it twice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Global skier ratios are roughly at this level in 2023 (rounded).
Beginner = 25%
Intermediate = 70%
Advanced = 5%
Expert = 1%
Steep bumps and ice are the litmus test.
Speed, poise, grace, directness, stillness, calmness, predictiveness, always in total control.
You know it when you see it...
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
it was immediately clear that even a rep's gold rating, which was probably on a par with the gold test, was not at the technical level required for Basi2, let alone 3. |
As you say later they are not really measuring the same thing although obviously a very good skeeb leader or holiday skier could probably take and pass any of the first level ski instructor courses bar the French TT entrance exam.
There is a video doing the rounds comparing Jessica Diggins and Moa Ilar in a recent world cup race. Both are expert cross country skiers but while Moa Ilar demonstrated grace, style and technique Jessie is ragged and would not be great for demonstrating skate technique.
Jessie won.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hmmm...
Winter tires thread or this one for wide range of opinions!... 
I've skied quite a bit, done several seasons, etc, etc, I'd like to think I was an expert, but...
This is my son https://www.instagram.com/p/Cx9ulGMLsPl/ He'd like to think he's an expert, but...
This is one of his club colleagues https://www.instagram.com/p/CMLl7QvnKaS/, but...
Neither of them are coaches (and plenty of their coaches are/were FWT athletes, racers,...)...
So what's an intermediate, advanced, expert? Depends what you are comparing to. Or just go ski what you like on what you like 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hmmm...
Winter tires thread or this one for wide range of opinions!...
I've skied quite a bit, done several seasons, try to ski 50+ days a year etc, etc, I'd like to think I was an expert, but...
This is my son https://www.instagram.com/p/Cx9ulGMLsPl/ He'd like to think he's an expert, but...
This is one of his former club colleagues (and now FWT athlete) https://www.instagram.com/p/CMLl7QvnKaS/, but...
Neither of them are coaches (and plenty of their coaches are/were FWT athletes/racers), and from the above categorization neither of them are instructors, not pro racers (ski racing at least), and as far as I know have not passed any ESF or Ski Club GB tests, Eurotests,... so...
So what's an intermediate, advanced, expert? Depends who you are comparing to, or who you ask. Or just not worry about it and go ski what you like on what you like
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 10-12-23 23:19; edited 5 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Global skier ratios are roughly at this level in 2023 (rounded).
Beginner = 25%
Intermediate = 70%
Advanced = 5%
Expert = 1%
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Those ratios sound about right.
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There is a video doing the rounds comparing Jessica Diggins and Moa Ilar in a recent world cup race. Both are expert cross country skiers but while Moa Ilar demonstrated grace, style and technique Jessie is ragged and would not be great for demonstrating skate technique.
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We could have a whole thread discussing what is "good technique". It's a complicated topic. People with unorthodox/non-traditional techniques being successful are not particularly uncommon - few would say bolts was technically as good as some of his less.successful competitors. Jim furyk is another example.
Cross country skiing is probably not the best example, physiology plays too big a role. If your vo2 max isn't big enough you can be the most efficient skier in the world and it won't get you close to a podium.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For me its breakable crust (especially the sort you break through when you turn) which is the biggest divider of the Ski Club Gold "Expert". I would probably fail Whitegold's ice and bumps test. But then, for the last 30 years I've only skied on piste to get to off piste and hardly ever skied bumps, and its at least that long since I had a lesson. If I were younger I'd probably want to improve my technique for those things (after all, I learned before carving skis) but at 75 I just enjoy what I enjoy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
| For me its breakable crust (especially the sort you break through when you turn) which is the biggest divider of the Ski Club Gold "Expert". |
Snowplough is your friend.
Or Stem, or Plough/Parallel if you prefer. Seriously, rotate the outer ski into a snowplough position, it's then pushing sideways forming a bank of snow with the forces being much more parallel with, rather than perpendicular, to the crust, which then stands much less chance of breaking. Finish the turn with a gentle rotation of the now unweighted inside ski, avoiding sudden up and down movements, again trying to ensure that any forces generated are going mostly across the surface of thlye snow and not down through it,
Learnt this on an off-piste long weekend in La Tania perhaps 15 years ago with Phil Smith on some serious rotten spring snow, such that breaking through would have you down to your knees or even your waist. Four of the group, including my wife and I, 'got' it, the other two or three did not. Guess who was smiling and who was completely exhausted at the end of the afternoon.
One of those real breakthrough - pun intended - moments for me. Prior to that people had talked about skiing lightly, without any explanation or understanding of how you could be more or less 'light', but this really works, and Phil's explanations, as ever, were great for an analytical skier such as myself who needs to understand why.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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According to that link above, I’m an early advanced. But it really doesn’t matter. I can tackle pretty much any slope/terrain, but I would rather tackle a decent blue with precision than a black without it. Just ski what you’re comfortable with and enjoy it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Who is asking?
If it's a hire shop then saying advanced will get you a higher DIN setting and possibly a sales pitch to upgrade to more expensive skis.
If it's someone else, then ask them what they mean by the categories.
If it's for your ego, then you're definitely an expert and don't let anyone tell you anything else. You're a better skier than they are anyway.
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It's an intrasative verb: I'm advanced, you're an early intermediate, he should give up and try snowboarding.
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Oh the stuff that you can stay on top of by skiing lightly and not using edges is easy. I mean the stuff you have to really carve and punch through. That is the mark of a good skier for me. To get the gold you really needed to be able to do that, though they didn't expect good style. Yes, rotten snow is something else.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I really like the way the Warren Smith academy classifies levels. There are 6, and concise videos demonstrating what people look like at each level on both the high and low end of that level.
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I taught a private lesson to a guy on the dry slope, before the lesson he described himself as an advanced skier, because "he can get down any run".
It only took a few turns for me to realise he was nowhere near "advanced". Ok, you could give him some slack for it being dendix, but if you're twisting/rotating the shoulders and have loads of weight on the inside ski while turning, that's nothing to do with the matting.
Early intermediate at best, but, what even is an intermediate or advance skier, as mentioned!?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It’s that Dunning Kruger curve thing, previously discussed.
As beginners we think once we have got down a black run, sideslipping, we are now experts.
I am a two week a year skier for twenty years, probably happy to handle any on piste, and a bit of guided off piste, I would describe myself as an over confident intermediate. But I thought that when I was four weeks in, and I now know that I knew diddly squat back then. And compared with others I probably don’t know that much now.
At a recent boot fitting I was asked my ability, like “do you go down black runs” … yes I do, but my reason is mainly because I know that they will be empty, not because I always want to go down the hardest runs, so imo some of the indicators need to be taken into context.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
| At a recent boot fitting I was asked my ability, like “do you go down black runs” . |
This is my point. Various shops supposedly want to know what your ability is and they ask silly questions like this to establish capability. I mean really, even if you can get down black runs, it says nothing about how you get down them.
There should be a global skiing standard and everyone should know what Level they are, then the answer is easy - e.g. I'm Level 4, Level 8 etc. and everyone then knows what you are talking about. A bit like in Karate, green belt, black belt etc.
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| snowball wrote: |
| I just enjoy what I enjoy. |
There is the secret to skiing nirvana.
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You know it makes sense.
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It revolves around whether you are prone to treating skiing as a holiday activity or as a sport. If it's the latter you tend to be better at it but think you are worse as you have a more realistic view of what good looks like.
Genuinely good usually implies race training at a young age to embed the fundamentals.
Can you be a good skier if you ski one week a year? Yes. But that probably means you skied intensively at some point in your life e.g. live in Paris but grew up in Grenoble/skied seasons/raced on plastic as a kid etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Pyramus wrote: |
This is my point. Various shops supposedly want to know what your ability is and they ask silly questions like this to establish capability. I mean really, even if you can get down black runs, it says nothing about how you get down them.
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I reckon it's all placebo - they're really just trying to figure out if you'll pay more for the same thing.
My definition of "advanced" would be "doesn't need high end kit to ski almost anything at a high standard". My definition of intermediate would be "thinks the gear makes much of a difference" 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
There should be a global skiing standard and everyone should know what Level they are, then the answer is easy - e.g. I'm Level 4, Level 8 etc. and everyone then knows what you are talking about.
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The trouble is skiing level is not a one dimensional thing. I know some racers who can post an excellent time down a slalom course and look really reaaly good (and one who looked terrible but beat everyone) but couldn't ski even the smallest bumps or soft snow and one friend who looks absolutely terrible but skis everyting in a nice controlled pace, taking good lines and never stopping. They are both skilled at different things. The important thing is to know your strengths and weeknesses. And don't try and put a grade on yourself and say because I'm a grade 4 I'm better than you grade 2 plebs.
@Hurtle, You are lucky. I see Les Arcs are charging 50€ for an old persons pass
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I mean really, even if you can get down black runs, it says nothing about how you get down them.
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Yes, but it does say you want equipment that is good on moguls and more varied snow than say someone who only carves big turns at speed on piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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90% of male clients describe themselves as advanced. 1% of them actually are. Probably even lower if you restrict the sample to UK skiers. 90% of them use the expression "can get down pretty much everything". They can't, no chance on even remotely challenging off-piste or bumps. And on steep pistes are often a liability to themselves or others.
90% of female clients describe themselves as intermediate or even below. 90% are at least higher level intermediates hindered by a lack of confidence.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="johnE"]
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The trouble is skiing level is not a one dimensional thing. I know some racers who can post an excellent time down a slalom course and look really reaaly good (and one who looked terrible but beat everyone) but couldn't ski even the smallest bumps or soft snow and one friend who looks absolutely terrible but skis everyting in a nice controlled pace, taking good lines and never stopping. They are both skilled at different things. The important thing is to know your strengths and weeknesses. And don't try and put a grade on yourself and say because I'm a grade 4 I'm better than you grade 2 plebs.
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Yes, this.
A guide I know took a supposed hot-shot team of young racers off piste and they were floundering and falling all over the place. But they could probably have beaten me in a race because I have never done any race training. Personally I find most pistes a bit boring, but if you are fixated on carving on ice then I can see that it might get more interesting. Personally my idea of heaven is making the first tracks down a 35º-45º powder slope. Of course this requires a guide to say it is safe.
If I could find a spare day it might be interesting, some time, to try skiing on a modern piste ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To me:
"Beginner" means that you've got more to learn to be able to get anywhere you want in a resort.
"Intermediate" means that you're able to get where you want on-piste, but it may not be pretty.
"Advanced" means that you're able to fluidly ski almost all terrain in almost all conditions.
"Expert" means that you've been paid to do it at some point.
~15 years ago when I was skiing six weeks a year, I think I was approaching the borderline between Intermediate and Advanced.
These days I'm a solid intermediate. My mates think that I'm an expert because a) I'm still quicker than them, and their kids and b) I'm still able to fluidly ski stuff that they struggle on.
The reason that I've regressed is because the amount of time, money and effort needed to stay at that level (not to mention the carbon footprint) was significant.
Easiski (formerly?) of this parish once told me that to keep making progress then I'd need to think about living in a ski resort. I think that's a reasonable mark of what it takes to become "Advanced", ie skiing most hours of most days of a season.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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PS all the "racers" that I've ever skied with have been able to hand me my back bottom on a plate in any conditions on any terrain. That's if I could see them.
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We tried to quantify Off Piste skiing Levels as a lot to do with experience and confidence... In addition to technical ability, fitness, confidence and experience plays a role. We use our self assessed guides to help put people in the right groups and steer them to the best option in terms of holidays or training indoors.
https://www.insideoutskiing.com/offpistelevel
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According to the grumpy woman in the ESF booking office in Morzine you're an "advanced" skier if you are comfortable skiing any piste, regardless of colour so I guess "intermediate" is "happy on blues and maybe reds but while you might be able to get down a black it's not without a little bit of wee coming out.
At least she scoffed and complained that us British always say we're intermediates even when we are advanced, and that I was advanced as I was booking a "I can ski blacks but my technique lets me down when it's really steep so I want to work on that" lesson. Lesson was good, but feeling smug all week about being classified as an advanced skiier was better
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| PS all the "racers" that I've ever skied with have been able to hand me my back bottom on a plate in any conditions on any terrain. That's if I could see them. |
Agreed. I think people like to believe something different tho
Anyone who thinks racers can't handle bumps, hasn't seen a slalom course after 3 training runs.
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@snowdave, or a GS course with bib 90 
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FAQ
