 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi guys,
I had some boots fitted by Russell at Ski Bartlett a few weeks ago, and took them out for my first day skiing yesterday.
He did the usual recommended tests eg a shell fit, asking what type of skiing I was looking to do, and after a few different boots we found the Nordica Speed Machine 110s were suitable.
He also noted one of my feet had a "pretty strong arch" and the other "needed more support", so he advised some after market insoles - just off the shelf Sidas ones (I cannot currently see if they are the mid/high ones as they are wedged quite firmly into my boot.)
Instead of arch pain, which I sometimes get in rental boots, I had some bad pain running down the outside of my feet. The pain was more or less unnoticeable when skiing, but when standing around waiting for people it would really start cranking up.
I couldn't wait to get in and take off my boots thinking it would give me immense relief, but the pain actually got worse when I was walking around in my socks and I ended up waddling like a penguin, deliberately trying to avoid putting any pressure on the outside of my feet - they're still sore, but manageably so, today, and luckily I am not skiing until Thurs.
I'd love to know your thoughts on the below:
1) Russell recommended I bring the factory/stock insole with me, just in case I got pain from "not being used to the insole". Presumably this is worth trying for my next day on the slopes? I have never worn any arch support in my life, if that helps.
2) If the above does get rid of this new type of foot pain, should I just carry on forever sans arch support in my ski boots?
3) Do foot beds need to break in/ do your feet need a period of getting accustomed to them?
Everything else feels "fine" with the boot, I can't feel any pressure points when putting them on, no shin bang, they're flexing fine from what I can tell.
Any other suggestions welcome.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1. Yes
2. Yes - or get custom insoles
3. Yes (accustomed)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You sure they aren't a touch narrow and need blowing out? Sounds like the sort of pain I'd get if I wore boots that were too narrow for my feet.
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I feel it's normal in having to go again to fitter in dealing with any initial first ski outcome with new boots, nothing unusual there.
Mine needed more space for high instep on both to allow better fit. Initially they were without specific insoles, but with shells right did benefit from moulded footed.
Out there and live, things like warming them overnight, getting your heal pushed fully back into location well, then really taking time to seat the tongue well (pull up and down, wriggle left to right) in getting it positioned well without compromise, then doing boots up may help. That's if youve not already done all that 
Otherwise, notes for fitter etc to help eventually let them consider and adapt with their skills to refine them for you.
Try the other insoles, maybe socks too to give yourself full view of what helps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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whenever I change anything, I take what I replaced with me, so I can change back.
Are you wearing the same socks as your fitting?
I had similar issue and it felt like my foot was twisting slightly in the boot & never going flat on the insole correctly. Can only describe it as a cramping pain.
Only thing that I changed was treating myself to new socks! Went back to old socks & I was fine afterwards. That was with custom liners though.
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@Dashed, Potentially, I'm not entirely sure how I'd notice the difference I am honest  Hopefully using the stock foot beds will shed some light, if it solves that issue (or doesn't) I can at least rule something out as the problem causer.
Would a tight (width) boot not be immediately noticeable when putting it on?
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@Ruswit, it could be a numbe of things causing that type of pain
1 just getting used to support
2 a lack of flexibility causing the foot to abduct
3 boot a touch too narrow
4footbed not doing its job
first thing to do is what you are trying stock footbed, if that doesn't change it then it is likely to be either flexibility or boot shell too narrow, if it does then you have narrowed it down tot he footbed which can be sorted when you get back
as with all these things there is an element of time to get used to the support and the snug feel of a new boot everyone's tolerance to these things is different
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@Gored, Yes, same socks (or at least I have a few sets of identical pairs and it was one of these).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ruswit wrote: |
@Dashed,
Would a tight (width) boot not be immediately noticeable when putting it on? |
No - I've skied all day in a pair of new boots, thought they were ok and then taken them off to find the "meaty" bit on the outside edge of my foot in horrible crampy pain. I recall snowboarding the next day as I couldn't face ski boots again. Once punched out a touch they were perfect.
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@CEM, Thanks CEM was hoping you'd show up with some sage advice (and thanks to everyone else too!)
Seems like we all agree r.e trying the stock footbed, so fingers crossed!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dashed, Interesting! Hopefully that isn't the case here...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Ruswit wrote: |
| @Dashed, Interesting! Hopefully that isn't the case here... |
It's a very, very easy fix so i'd not worry if it is.
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Right, so I skied non stop for a good 4h this afternoon in the same boots with stock insoles and it was MUCH better.
I had a mild bit of pain on the outer side of each foot and a small bit across the arch too, but this was only the case if the bottom 2 buckles were done up (these were only ever done finger/thumb tight) - this didn't solve the pain on Sunday, so seems there's a good chance the foot bed was the cause of my pain.
Best of all, after taking the boots off I had no pain at all.
Does the above suggest anything in particular regarding the boot being a fraction too narrow or is it too hard to tell without seeing in the flesh?
Presumably I should just ignore the arch supporting insoles rather than try and "get used to them" (e.g use them in my trainers etc).
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You know it makes sense.
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@Ruswit, With no bootfitting expertise to drawn on, I would stick with the stock insoles - rather than potentially ingrain a painful problem, while having a miserable time. Enjoy your holiday and then go back to Russell and get it sorted out. I am confident that it will be sorted out.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Probably just the insoles and foot a bit tender from them yday.
Why not phone Russell and then pop back in when your home and he can assess and make any adjustments - it's all part of the fitting service.
Then retest at Hemel snow dome!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Another thought for the future.
The muscles on the soles of my feet used to be really tight and the least pressure on the arch would trigger cramp. The answer was to use a tennis ball (stand gently on it and roll over the painful areas) and when it starts softening after a few days, go to a Golf Ball. It could be worth a try.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@t44tomo, Given that the last time I skied was 4 days ago, I don't think this is the case. I'll deffo get in touch with Russell at Ski Bartlett at some point to see what they reckon.
@Old Fartbag, Luckily I have a lacrosse ball with me specifically for this and I have been rolling out my foot since the pain.
@CEM, Do clients of yours tend to report pain with custom foot beds? I'm a tad concerned if I go down the custom route I will be faced with the same problem and even more money spent on the insole.
I am just glad to not be in as much pain as on my first day 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Ruswit, Custom footbeds are only as good as the person making them, the fact that's it's custom alone will not ensure a quality product. We see so many custom footbeds made locally and worldwide that are more useful as a Taco Shell than at supporting the foot.
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| Ruswit wrote: |
@t44tomo, Given that the last time I skied was 4 days ago, I don't think this is the case. I'll deffo get in touch with Russell at Ski Bartlett at some point to see what they reckon.
@Old Fartbag, Luckily I have a lacrosse ball with me specifically for this and I have been rolling out my foot since the pain.
@CEM, Do clients of yours tend to report pain with custom foot beds? I'm a tad concerned if I go down the custom route I will be faced with the same problem and even more money spent on the insole.
I am just glad to not be in as much pain as on my first day |
the vast majority of people we see don't have any problem with a custom insert, BUT it 100% comes down to the person making the device and how it is made, as CH20 says the fact that it is custom alone is no guarantee, and unfortunately all fitters see some absolutely shocking insoles come though our doors
the key is here you have found the main source of the pain and removed it, the residual is likely to be due to your feet needing some support, just the correct support, contact the store when you get back and arrange to have them look at the footbed and i am sure all will be good
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So I have a follow up appointment booked with Ski Bartlett after having skied in the boots for 2 weeks and I have made some comprehensive notes (in my opinion).
The main things I am looking to address with the second fitting:
1) Foot pain on the outside of each foot, along what I believe to be the outer metatarsal (focused nearer the little toe than the heel). This pain lessens a lot (almost entirely) if the bottom 2 buckles are undone and is apparently quite dependent on how warm the conditions are, presumably this changes how supple the plastic of the boot is. Could this be that the boot is slightly too tight across the forefoot?
2) Getting some proper arch support if necessary.
What sort of process am I looking for to firstly ensure we highlight the problem properly in store, and secondly what sort of solutions would typically be suggested or tests done to try and force the issues to appear?
Regarding the lower 2 buckles, these were only ever done up very loosely.
Cheers!
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@Ruswit, I also ride in Nordica Speedmachines (130) and never close the 2 front buckles. They make no difference to the heel hold and just cramp my forfoot. I’d suggest you try leaving yours fully unbuckled. I also get the widest part of the boot blown out to reduce pressure on the “6th metatarsal” area. If the boot is a bit tight in the forfoot this may help you. When riding I have my main buckles on the 1st or 2nd buckle. If it’s cold or I’m riding hard I will undo them on the lift to allow the circulation back fully into my feet. If it’s warm in the afternoons I often need to tighten one more notch. But it’s always better to start with the buckles looser and gradually tighten them than ratchet them first thing in the morning and get cramp. I’ve also experimented with all sorts of footbeds from stock, to superfeet, to custom ski insoles, to very expensive orthotics. In my “standard” left foot I honestly don’t notice any difference. On the right ankle which is collapsed /flat from ankle previous ankle injuries, the custom insole certainly helps in stopping the foot turning outwards and putting pressure on the outside edge. Hope it helps
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@BobinCH, I did ski with them unbuckled for a lot of the time. No clue if psychological but I felt slightly more secure in the boot with them done up. Glad to know it isn't just me who has to go a whole notch tighter if it's warming up!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Righto, resurrecting my old post as the season is beginning.
I went back to Ski Bartlett to see Russell in April. He and Alex from Sidas agreed to fit me a custom foot bed and from memory a bit of the soles were filed/ground down to slightly increase the volume in the boots.
As suggested by them and a few in this thread, I took them to Hemel for a few hours the other day, which was good enough fun. Sadly a very similar type of pain kicked in about 30 mins into the session, i.e pain along the outside of my feet, and to a lesser extent, the arches. The pain did lessen towards the very end at least, but 2.5h is a lot shorter than a standard skiing day.
I have provisionally booked in with Russell again in Jan (he must be sick of me by now!)
1) What sort of things would the knowledgeable amongst you be looking to try to alleviate this pain / what would you be asking me to test so that you can work out what is causing the pain?
2) I can't seem to replicate the pain even if I wear the boots for a few hours around the house, admittedly I am not doing any hard exercise in them... Any suggestions for triggering the discomfort other than skiing in them?
In short:
Nordica Speed Machine 110s seem to fit well. No shin bang, no rubbing, feel snug and the boots flex fine when skiing.
Have already got a custom insole fitted by a member of the Sidas team, apparently one of their trainers, so you'd hope decently skilled.
A bit of the soles have been ground down to provide more volume.
Cheers again!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Ruswit,
i would suspect your insole is well made (based on the person who made them ),doesn't mean they don't need to be adjusted slightly, but based on everything you have said i am going to go with it is one of two things .... flexibility at the ankle joint or your ski technique that is causing the issues
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| CEM wrote: |
@Ruswit,
i would suspect your insole is well made (based on the person who made them ),doesn't mean they don't need to be adjusted slightly, but based on everything you have said i am going to go with it is one of two things .... flexibility at the ankle joint or your ski technique that is causing the issues |
That's a bummer to hear. I tend to get a few hours of instruction each trip to try and keep progressing, so am wondering how subtle an issue it could be. Are there any specific technique issues that you see crop up a lot that cause foot pain?
I know for a fact I am not leaning back as I have verified this with instructors regularly.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Ruswit, do you have any video of yourself skiing that you can put up ? Not sure what "level" of skier you are but clients sometimes subconsciously go into a snow plough and/or press on the outside leg in an effort to control speed and this extra pressure can cause foot pain.
As CEM says ankle flex can be an issue as well and is easy to measure using a spirit level app on your phone. try sitting in a chair high enough so your thigh is roughly parallel to the ground, shift you heel for or aft until your shin is vertical by measuring using the spirit level app. then hold the phone on the base of your foot and raise your toes keeping heel on floor. let us know what angle you can achieve. In my experience less than 10deg can be a big problem for skiing and needs a skilled boot fitter, 15deg is just about okay and 20 is pretty normal. You can stretch to improve your ankle flex and it will defo help your skiing. Test both feet as you could be one sided.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@skimottaret,
Sorry for delays on this as I actually zipped off for a last minute week of skiing before Christmas, which has given me the perfect chance to get to know the boots again.
I really should get some videos, even just to know how much of a tool I look! Depending on if we're going by British holidaymaker standards or legit standards I'm either an advanced (never expert) skier or in that awkward midground between intermediate and advanced. I've got about 25 weeks on snow spread over the last 20 years.
I know for a fact my right side dorsiflexion is worse. A bit of a messy job with a spirit level app and my phone as best in line with the sole of each foot I was 20 degrees on my left and 18.5-19 on my right.
I've skied the last few days with the bottom buckles undone ( I do tighten them for a moment just to pull the shell into place and then I undo them before skiing). What I have noticed is that after a few runs this pain starts setting in, starting at the ball of my little toes and going down the outside of each foot. I'll resort to undoing the boots completely on a chair lift and then I can retighten them and the pain doesn't return... Sounds like witchcraft, I know.
I'll probably try the stock insole again tomorrow just to see if that does anything good / bad l.
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Poster: A snowHead
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well if you are 20 deg unweighted I dont think that is the problem. I personally never bother with the second from toe buckle and leave it undone and the toe buckle as loose as possible. Your skiing could be causing something but if you are early advanced probably not. my money would be on footbeds or a slightly tight shell/liner.
Try some thin socks or go commando one day...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Ruswit, if the stock liner is more comfortable why don’t you just use that? Most stock liners are thin and flat meaning more space for your foot in the boot. It seems to me your foot is telling you it prefers that setup. I would also get the boot blown out at the widest point next to the little toe. This will make no difference to heel hold but will relieve pressure on the outside of the foot.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@BobinCH, it's a fair question and one I am absolutely wondering myself r.e the stock foot bed. Aside from having paid for the bed (sunk cost now, I know), I do feel that my knee/shin tracks more accurately over my forefoot when skiing with the footbed in, presumably my arch "collapses" on the outside foot in a turn and then it goes back up when i roll that foot the other way to turn the opposite direction- so being able to use it would be nice.
I appreciate everyone's input, at this point I imagine it's up to he guys at Bartlett to help.
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