I suppose, the method that is taught depends on the level of the skier and how competent they already are in the bumps.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 25-11-23 13:24; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
under a new name wrote:
Following a comment from @Chaletbeauroc. How is the skiing of bumps taught today?
Been a long time since any lessons but in my head, it's (if this comes out correctly):
- anticipate with arm and pole
- "swallow" the bump with legs
- (check on "summit" if needed)
- rotate on top
- "smear down "face"
- rinse and repeat
Narrow stance is missing from your list. That's my starting point for teaching people who haven't skied bumps in any meaningful way, and often is the reason why they initially struggle.
As I alluded to in the previous post, bumps are not my favourite thing and I had to work hard on them for my L3, so I don't pretend to have all the answers, but here goes anyway...
There's not really a special technique for bumps - in essence you just need to ski tight, controlled short turns. So teaching bumps would start from developing the short turn, where you're generally facing shoulders downhill, using positive pole plants to define your turning point, rotating the lower half of the body but not the upper and trying to minimise side-to-side movement of the body mass, i.e. your skis cross underneath you but your upper body stays as close as possible to the fall line.
You then need to adapt that to bumps, which require a fine level of control of both direction and speed, but in essence you're simply doing a short turn round each bump. BASI talk about three different lines you can use to navigate them, Inside, Outside and Direct. The In and Out sides are referring to which side of the trough your skis are gripping on, which can be a little counter-intuitive, but I lift this description directly from the BASI site.
"As with skiing generally, nothing is black and white, but the line choices to ski down a bumps field can be sculpted around:
The Inside Line – which offers more opportunity than any other to control speed and presents a fine initiation into fall-line bumps;
the Outside Line – where a rounder line allows the skier to avoid the deepest part of the trough making it less physically impacting;
the Direct Line – which offers the fastest descent down the hill and enables a quick check on the face of the bump without affecting the overall speed of descent."
Edit: Just to add a couple of points that helped me:
Don't think about the bumps themselves, nor really about the dips, but recognise that you're skiing over a series of ridges between the bumps, on each one of which you're wanting to turn.
It's important to be well balanced and low on your skis - leaning back will lead to a quick ejection, but more than this you need to be able to flex your knees a lot - like all the way to your chest, and absorb the next ridge.
When crossing over the ridge you need to extend your skis forward as well as downwards, effectively getting them to point more down the slope you're going to descend immediately after the ridge-line.
Plant your pole on or near the top of the next bump. This will vary slightly depending on which of the above-mentioned lines you're skiing,
Oh, and yes, as somebody already mentioned, keep your skis together - the two skis are acting as one. You want them to look like your legs are tied together from the knee downward,
@Chaletbeauroc, (@OFB) Thanks, Ah, good, so that's fine for me, nothing's changed dramatically.
MY bumps changed re-markedly when a particularly talented instructor asked, "how do you turn on one bump?" - as in, if you can't turn on one, you can't reasonably expect to link them.
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@Chaletbeauroc, I think that's a pretty good description but I also think that the technique for skiing bumps is massively different from modern piste technique. Eg. Legs together, skidded turns with lots of separation (shoulders down the hill, legs having a party), pole plants on the top of the next bump rather than neatly flicking your wrist towards your ski tip, plenty of up and down movement to compress and extend the peaks and troughs, fast leg speed, etc.
There are definitely several different ways to ski bumps but it's not a question of picking one particular way and doing that, but rather a combination of all of them depending on what the next bump is like when you get to it. The technique is part proactive and part reactive.
My kids started off in ski school for the first few years of their skiing lives and came on really well - nice flat pistes = nice carved turns. When it came to bumps, the nice carved turns didn't work and they didn't have the other skill set to ski bumps. We split it into 'type 1' and 'type 2' skiing. Type 1 is perfect for nice flowing turns down blues and reds, whereas type 2 is good for very steep pitches and bumps.
Anyway I'm waffling now, so I'll stop!
I absolutely love doing bumps.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 25-11-23 14:59; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
under a new name wrote:
@Chaletbeauroc, (@OFB) Thanks, Ah, good, so that's fine for me, nothing's changed dramatically.
Well, your
Quote:
smear down "face"
is most certainly not what's expected now, you're looking for your skis to be pointing in the direction of travel at all times, especially as you're crossing a ridge or trough, both of which (the trough more depending on the line you've chosen) you should be crossing at around 90 degrees. The technique you describe often means you're sliding sideways down the face and trying to regain directional control by using the trough line itself, which is pretty much the opposite of what I was trying (obviously not well enough) to describe. Effectively we're trying as much as possible to carve, not slide.
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@Chaletbeauroc, OK, good comments, thanks, I'm sending you (hopefully) a link to an old (!) vid of mine, please ignore the audio!!
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under a new name wrote:
@Chaletbeauroc, (@OFB) Thanks, Ah, good, so that's fine for me, nothing's changed dramatically.
MY bumps changed re-markedly when a particularly talented instructor asked, "how do you turn on one bump?" - as in, if you can't turn on one, you can't reasonably expect to link them.
IMV. It's the one discipline that has changed the least....where maybe a little less rotation is now needed due to the tighter turn radius of modern skis when put on edge.
My mogul skiing has improved somewhat, but still leaves a lot to be desired on larger, tight icy bumps. What helped me was moving the feet back and forth (as described in the video) to help remain in balance ie. Like pedalling backwards, with both the feet on one pedal. If one gets into a rhythm, it greatly seems to help.....as opposed to "Shopping for moguls", which doesn't.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
icy bumps
@Old Fartbag, that'll be the problem, "icy".
The best ones are the slushy ones
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
under a new name wrote:
@Chaletbeauroc, OK, good comments, thanks, I'm sending you (hopefully) a link to an old (!) vid of mine, please ignore the audio!!
Yeah, very much old school as you described. High arms, not much edge pressure, sliding, rotating etc. You can see that's what most people were doing just by looking at the shape of the bumps.
@Chaletbeauroc, in my defense m'lud, I did start to learn to ski in 1970 ... shockingly what I sent you was 17 or so years ago
I'd like to think I've modernised my style a little since (I actually have had a few "lessons" to assist with that". I've also ditched the yellow strides, although there was a brief flirtation with orange en route to black.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 25-11-23 18:28; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
under a new name wrote:
Quote:
icy bumps
@Old Fartbag, that'll be the problem, "icy".
The best ones are the slushy ones
Much as I'd like to blame the ice, I'm afraid the problem is that I'm just not good enough.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Old Fartbag, nah, it's the ice
@Chaletbeauroc, thanks for the basi vid, but not a terribly long sequence? I shall be looking around
Frankly, as a Brit if that's the best we've got it's bloody embarrassing
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm scared of bumps I go to pieces when I get into them.
Its more about survival.
But its my BIG challange and I'm going to keep hacking away at them.
I had some lessons in Manchester a few weeks ago.
We started off by learning to do the line where you ski around the bump.
And I found it so much easier than that swivel on the top then smear down the back, which is the way I've always been shown before.
The key points were (from memory)
1) pole plant well ahead on the front of the bump.
2) arms well forward and quite.
I've forgotten the rest.
I got worn out as the day went on and I could hardly walk in the evening.
We all had an Apres Ski in the Trafford Centre, perhaps I had too much Apres.
But I was useless for the next day's lesson... which was about the the line over the top.
Frankly, as a Brit if that's the best we've got it's bloody embarrassing
Yeah, I saw that one too and decided it wasn't a good one to show as an example of how it 'should' be done.
In fairness though, the required result on the day is always going to be based on the conditions, the trainers ski the same run first, and indeed it will be repeated by them and the whole group several times, so although the end result doesn't look like a demonstration team it was clearly felt that it was the best that could be achieved on that slope on that day.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This is the official BASI video with the explanation and demos of the diffferent lines:
BASI Ski Level 4 Technical Standards - Bumps from Official BASI
The problem with many bumps is they aren't necessarily nice seeded ones ( ideally on gentler gradients first to build skills) but deep trenched irregular faced that have developed for too long.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Did a course up at Cas with this guy a few years, really made a difference to my mogul technique.
I really enjoyed that one: thanks, @endoman, for sharing it. I’m looking forward to trying some of it out in a couple of weeks’ time.
One thing I’d have liked to have seen more of is the discussion of what the different non-bumps drills contributed to bumps skiing. He did a bit of that when talking about skiing powder on piste skis, & also when talking about short turns and (double) pole plants. But if anyone’s confident making the technical links clearer between stork, half-dolphin turns etc. and bumps skiing, I’d find that really interesting and helpful.
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DrLawn wrote:
I'm scared of bumps I go to pieces when I get into them.
Its more about survival.
But its my BIG challange and I'm going to keep hacking away at them.
I had some lessons in Manchester a few weeks ago.
We started off by learning to do the line where you ski around the bump.
And I found it so much easier than that swivel on the top then smear down the back, which is the way I've always been shown before.
The key points were (from memory)
1) pole plant well ahead on the front of the bump.
2) arms well forward and quite.
I've forgotten the rest.
I got worn out as the day went on and I could hardly walk in the evening.
We all had an Apres Ski in the Trafford Centre, perhaps I had too much Apres.
But I was useless for the next day's lesson... which was about the the line over the top.
I was there all three days I would have seen you.
Was also there Thursday/Friday just gone
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JayRo wrote:
One thing I’d have liked to have seen more of is the discussion of what the different non-bumps drills contributed to bumps skiing. He did a bit of that when talking about skiing powder on piste skis, & also when talking about short turns and (double) pole plants. But if anyone’s confident making the technical links clearer between stork, half-dolphin turns etc. and bumps skiing, I’d find that really interesting and helpful.
I'm not familiar with those first two (the turns), so can't comment, but I'd love it if some other more qualified instructors could add more detail, and either elaborate on or correct what I said earlier - I don't pretend to be an expert on this area so would welcome further discussion.
The videos can be useful as examples, but I've never been a fan trying to use them for instruction per se; as an analytical person myself I always feel that if you can't explain it in words then you probably don't fully understand it. More words please!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
But if anyone’s confident making the technical links clearer between stork, half-dolphin turns etc. and bumps skiing, I’d find that really interesting and helpful.
My understanding (and I am not an instructor so treat with caution) is that the stork turn is primarily aimed at promoting good stance and increasing outside edge pressure so beneficial for all types of turn.
Half dolphin and full dolphin are great for fore - aft balance and the movement can be incorporated into carving turns but is probably most useful inn the bumps. If you watch him through the bumps he is using the dolphin movement virtually all the time except when he is smearing. It is most noticeable when he goes aerial - the reverse bicycle pedal movement is easy to see.
The drills are aimed at getting the timing right and the half dolphin is easier so the place to start.
It is also possible to do an exercise at home - stand on one leg and with the other one pedal forward as if on a bike, then just reverse that movement and that is the feeling of the dolphin turn. Then watch the video and try to time your movement to the skier and can even add in bump absorption in the standing leg.
I have been trying to do full dolphin turns on piste for many years and can occasionally get a single one but not able to link them (the day I do I think I will dive into the nearest bar and drink my weight in champagne ).
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 26-11-23 13:13; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@under a new name, we spent around 50% of our time skiing moguls on our weekend of L3/L4 tech exam training last April in Verbier.
Rob Stanford from Warren Smith Ski Academy is a seriously good bumps skier (have a feeling he's ex GB moguls team)
One of the non bumps drills we did was to start the turn in a squat/toilet seat then extend the legs through to turn, to mimic the effect of extending the legs over the mogul.
Getting a real solid pole plant was important too, and I tended to lose my right (I think) pole plant when things got tricky.
I'm a long way from being a good moguls skier, but enough to pass the L3 tech, but definitely an area that needs lots of work.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The correct way to tackle bumps is to head in precisely the opposite direction from them.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
as an analytical person myself I always feel that if you can't explain it in words then you probably don't fully understand it. More words please!
I agree....though IMO there is a But.....Explaining in detail with written words (as opposed to spoken words), even for relatively simple moves, takes many sentences - to the point that the person reading can get fed up, lost or confused.
A well presented Video is much easier to take in. Ideally, the video is used to back up the explanation.
Personally, if I can explain something, in a way that the person reading has clearly understood (and that doesn't get pulled apart by an Instructor) - then that is an acid test as to whether I have understood it.
In some ways, knowing what to do and clearly explaining what to do, can be 2 different skill sets. Instructors need to have both....as well as having an empathic ability to understand how best to present information to the person they are teaching.
So, I have sympathy with the view that "A picture (Video) is worth a 1000 words".
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Whitegoldsbrother, It is a small world
Poster: A snowHead
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Quote:
In some ways, knowing what to do and clearly explaining what to do, can be 2 different skill sets. Instructors need to have both....as well as having an empathic ability to understand how best to present information to the person they are teaching.
I think that's pretty much precisely what I'd look to instructors for. I would not expect them to be particularly good in bumps: they're teachers.
Personally I always found "teaching" on moguls a bit confusing. Having read the thread I still think it sounds a bit confusing.
My 2p of advice is:
(1) Find easy bumps and learn on those. As you progress pick steeper fields, but avoid "survival mode", which I think teaches little.
(2) Notice that most bump slopes are empty most of the time.... because they're not in condition. Find somewhere which is.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
phil_w wrote:
Personally I always found "teaching" on moguls a bit confusing. Having read the thread I still think it sounds a bit confusing.
I agree.
The problem for me, with my first tentative lessons in the bumps in the 70s and 80s - is each time I had a different Instructor (often in a different country), they showed me a different way of doing it....and what I had been told previously was wrong.
When first learning - you can often think that when an Instructor says "This is what you must do" - that there is only one correct way to do it. When that advise is then dismissed by someone else, it just adds to the confusion.
It is only when I realised that there are multiple ways to come down moguls (and all are correct), that it started to make sense. Whichever method is used, it always boils down to "Speed and Line".
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@swskier, I had a days lesson with an Austrian chap, and he made us ski some black bumps without our poles. I was lucky to survive He, of course, looked exactly the same.
@phil_w, yeah, also, "turn on one bump"... most bump slopes these days are not in great condition because short, fat, skis.
@swskier, I had a days lesson with an Austrian chap, and he made us ski some black bumps without our poles. I was lucky to survive He, of course, looked exactly the same.
@phil_w, yeah, also, "turn on one bump"... most bump slopes these days are not in great condition because short, fat, skis.
Instructor from Breckenridge: "Hunker down on them Mothers!"
Gosh you really are an @Old Fartbag,
"Bumps lessons in the 70's & 80's"?
I didn't think moguls had been invented let alone lessons in them.
I remember my first time in the bumps... I was on my own and I could not really ski at all.
But I remember well the feeling of elation I had when I got to the bottom.
It was in my memory a particularly steep slope, and looking at it now it was.
The method I used ... because I do remember, it was to have one foot up and one down as I slithered down the bumps. But of course I had not been told how to do it then.
This was too back in the 70's, a long time ago but those moments that stay with for ever.
Dear Old Fartbag I mean no disrespect .. hats off to you!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Whitegoldsbrother, well, 1. yes, of course. What do you think you are insinuating? and 2. Brutal Grooming.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@DrLawn, google, e.g. Wayne Wong ...
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DrLawn wrote:
Gosh you really are an @Old Fartbag,
"Bumps lessons in the 70's & 80's"?
I didn't think moguls had been invented let alone lessons in them.
I remember my first time in the bumps... I was on my own and I could not really ski at all.
But I remember well the feeling of elation I had when I got to the bottom.
It was in my memory a particularly steep slope, and looking at it now it was.
The method I used ... because I do remember, it was to have one foot up and one down as I slithered down the bumps. But of course I had not been told how to do it then.
This was too back in the 70's, a long time ago but those moments that stay with for ever.
Dear Old Fartbag I mean no disrespect .. hats off to you!
No disrespect was taken, as it was clear that none was meant.
In the 70s, I even had a "Hot Dog" woolly hat (no Acrylic in them days) bought in Livigno....which was somewhat ironic, as it was the only Hot Dog thing about my mogul skiing!
It wasn't so much a dedicated Mogul Lesson per se....but what to do when one did encounter them (which was quite a lot, as the Piste Bashing was a lot ropier). IIRC I was told to use the Bump to Up-Unweight; plant the pole; twist the skis on the top where there was little resistance and press the tips down into the hollow. It works at slower speeds.
At a later stage (Mid 90s?), one of the first VHS videos that I found helpful was Breakthough on Skis 11 - Bumps and Powder by Lito Tejada-Flores (Still available on YouTube).
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@under a new name, I did not want to get into a row over this .. its just a jibe at Old Fartbag
Having moguls lessons in the 70's, I'm not insinuating anything ... Respect.
I did google Wayne Wong, I'd never heard of this young baby boomer before.
All hail to these lads and lassies who are not so young anymore, who are still showing us how to do it.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
in my defense m'lud, I did start to learn to ski in 1970 ... shockingly what I sent you was 17 or so years ago 
).
