 Poster: A snowHead
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Many of you have experience of the joys of off piste group skiing – this thread is to share thoughts on how to do that safely: There are Snowheads with far more experience than I.
I reflected on my own experience of leading groups on snow and the pleasure I get from joining Snowheads groups on the bashes (with Pipau imminent  ), and thought it would be good to share some thoughts. So this thread is to stimulate a debate on how best to ensure safety in these groups and encourage all to feel confident to join safe groups.
I've been developing a little mnemonic to summarise what I have learnt AM I ALIVE! I'll break that down on the next post
Please do add your own experience and views, and with special thanks to those we in depth experience and skills. It would also be great to have thoughts who tend to ski in the middle of groups, and your thoughts on how safe you feel, how relevant this advice is to you etc I hope this might help future Snowheads groups venturing offpiste
Briefly on my own experience. I am not a guide (nowhere near) – so please read comments as friendly sharing, not advice. However, I do have quite a few weeks specific avalanche training, a formal level 1 qualification in avalanche safety and some 35+ weeks experience leading groups on snow, much of it off piste. With experience I have found myself more cautious, however I do consider you can ski safely off piste far and wide – subject to safeguards and care. It is great fun!
One brief precursor. There are some that think that you should only ski off piste with a guide, that’s fine, I am not looking to dissuade you – and I enjoy skiing with guides too. The stats do NOT support the argument that skiing with a guide is safer, perhaps because groups skiing without a guide tend to be less adventurous? However the reality is that many of us feel that off piste skiing is a great joy which can be done in reasonable safety in well organised groups. Hence the desire to share openly here. Now to the mnemonic AM I ALIVE!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I’ve been working on this aid memoir to avalanche safety: AM I ALIVE – in part because skiing in powder does make you feel so alive. This is derived from similar advice from numerous sources, albeit a merging of pre avalanche (avoid) and post avalanche (action) phases. I’ll spell it out briefly here, and amplify some of the points later. Do comment and add your own experience.
A Avoid! (avoid the risky stuff) If you get buried in an avalanche EVEN if you were skiing with a fully equipped group with experience, your chances of survival are just 50%. That’s why the priority must be to avoid situations where avalanches are likely. So all the prep work eg following snow conditions, where you plan to ski etc. Know the avalanche risk levels, and the detailed report for the day. Avoid risks eg stick to slopes below 30’ (steep red) if risk is elevated. KEEP this in mind as you ski, look for slopes that have slid recently, look at wind loading, test the snow pack and keep refining your view of what is safe, and what is . Remember sun and wind change things. If this level of snow pack knowledge is not your skill set, be confident the group leader has done this work, and don’t go maverick, stick closely to where they say to ski. Cutting neat parallel fresh tracks earns extra brownie points!
M Mitigate. This is all the actions you take to minimise risks, and maximise chances of rescue. It includes kit: transceiver, shovel, probe and how to use them. … and avalanche airbag. Also route planning, local decisions (see also avoid above), slope discipline (eg spreading out when appropriate, skiing within pitches designated etc). You need a leader, you or other, don’t be a maverick.
I I. In the middle because you are central. The decisions you take, the shared responsibility, your preparation, your actions to minimise risks. Your clear thinking and rapid action if an avalanche. I is also for interaction and information. Stay aware. Communication with your group, and your leader / guide, eg to learn and to ensure no peer pressure, some leaders are too keen to ‘impress’ – eg A good question might be “why are you choosing that pitch, what makes it safe?”
A Avalanche – Action! When you see or sense a slide you must act very quickly. Warn others, activate your ABS (you do have one don’t you?), if possible fight to ski to a safe place (good to have these already in mind), fight to stay on top of the avalanche, kick off skis and poles, keep airway free (all of these things are easier said than done, but guides do seem to have a good habit of getting out of trouble, why not you too?)
L Look and Leadership. Once the avalanche has settled take a breath, be thankful for it and calm your thoughts. Look at the path of the avalanche – where will it have swept people, look for your friends, who’s missing, look for debris, any signs of buried bodies (if so and their head is buried they are a priority), look for secondary risks. See who’s going to take charge (you?). You need to move swiftly into the rescue phase – you should aim to rescue people inside 10 minutes, 15 minutes absolute max, but you will be much more efficient if you take time to plan the rescue, or understand where you can help most. If you ski down it will take you a long time to get back up … so look and plan.
I Instruments, inform. All transceivers must be in receive mode – do it! Inform: Ensure this for all in the group. Organise (are you organising or someone else?) Call in help – phone quickly, but try not to delay search
V The V of a search. Broad, to narrow to the point of the probe. Keep your skis on as long as you can, and move down the slope slowly, its tough to get back up! Mark the victim and get them out. If more than one buried rescue the one you’ve found (until they can breath), if you have others in the group decide if you can search for next victim. Bigger groups can search in more areas at the same time, although victims can often be swept to a similar end point.
E Excavate. Digging skills and organisation are important. Worth learning. Work quickly, one digging close, others clearing snow away, and rotate to keep up speed.
Now you move into the first aid phase … Well done … (thanks to for comments from @Mike Pow .... incorporated above)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 21-11-23 11:31; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Something I've been told. You're skiing in a group (you ARE, I hope). Agree an accident/avalanche lead (this would be the guide/instructor, but what if they're caught?) IN ADVANCE. The last thing you want is everybody shouting at each other, telling them what to do. Just one person to say "Beacons to receive. 2 people to search that area/person. 2 people on that person. Everybody else: probes and shovels out and ready", for example.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A really good framework
Maybe
I for information - a constant sharing of information throughout the day to make informed decisions, especially if conditions and/or the plan changes
L for leadership - defined leader, second if leader is caught in the avalanche. Leader's role in organising the group (leadership)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I did quite a few SCGB Freshtracks holidays, and on one occasion I was with a large ego-fueled group in Val d'Isere. On the first day the guide took us aside, buried a transceiver, and watched while we all tried to find it.
After 15 minutes it was quite clear that the unfortunate transceiver wearer was going to die, and that none of us had a clue! This was my third Freshtracks holiday and I was alarmed at how much I'd forgotten from previous drills. We'd all made the fundamental mistakes; there was no urgency in the search, and there was no organisation among the group. We spent the whole morning doing transceiver drills and even then I didn't feel that everyone was competent. I spent the week hoping that the guide wouldn't get buried!
I'm now very wary about venturing off-piste, especially if I don't know the competence of my fellow group members. It doesn't matter how well trained you are because your survival is in the hands of others. As a 'once-a-year skier' I'm happy to stay on-piste.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@joffy69, My view: If you're off piste you should have an agreed leader at any point, the default assumption is they will organise the search. However they could be the one caught, and may well be below the avalanche, often these occur behind the lead skier. So you need to be flexible and clear headed following any avalanche. Also I think it far more important to avoid getting into an avalanche, especially in a less experienced group. You can though follow a few simple rules to keep risk levels v low.
@Mike Pow, Thank you, great. Will add these in - hope you don't mind
@jellylegs, Yes, I have reflected on this many times as a leader. How much do you insist others know what to do in an avalanche. You simply can't conduct a efficient rescue if you've not practiced. I try to keep up my own practice level - however I know it is others that rescue me ... one reason I always wear an ABS backpack - and am cautious. If I am following a group I adjust my position in the group with a "view" on the experience of others (tend to go towards the back, tssk, miss the good snow) and will speak (respectfully) to a guide if I think s/he is pushing too much for the group and I don't know the guide. My conclusion (as a leader) has been to adjust the plan depending the level of the group, insist on some transceiver skills (eg I typically ask others to do the transceiver check) and offer to run some practice sessions. I plan this for first day at Pipau for example. But again, the most important thing is not to get caught.
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@pisteoff,
What is Pipau where you are planning on running practice sessions?
Is Pipau the Snowheads early season trip with qualified instructors? If it is then you should be asking the instructor to conduct transceiver training and classroom sessions on avalanche awareness.
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| jellylegs wrote: |
I did quite a few SCGB Freshtracks holidays, and on one occasion I was with a large ego-fueled group in Val d'Isere. On the first day the guide took us aside, buried a transceiver, and watched while we all tried to find it.
After 15 minutes it was quite clear that the unfortunate transceiver wearer was going to die, and that none of us had a clue! This was my third Freshtracks holiday and I was alarmed at how much I'd forgotten from previous drills. We'd all made the fundamental mistakes; there was no urgency in the search, and there was no organisation among the group. We spent the whole morning doing transceiver drills and even then I didn't feel that everyone was competent. I spent the week hoping that the guide wouldn't get buried! |
This fits with my (albeit rather more limited) experience of Freshtracks trips. On the one I did in January, with two first-rate guides, the 'training' (for a group that included people who'd never used a transceiver before) consisted of a pen-and-paper explanation of search-patterns over a late lunch on a very, very cold day, when I for one was in something of a polenta-induced food coma. No on-slope searching, no digging. In terms of skiing, snow finding and avalanche avoidance the guides were excellent, but in no sense was any of us prepared for what might happen if caught in a slide--and even less so if the guide was buried.
Contrast that with the UCPA trip I did in April: solo bag-finding/-digging on the first afternoon (multi-bag for anyone who admitted to having done it before or who volunteered); avalanche safety and snowpack talk (compulsory for all off-piste groups) that evening; full simulated group drill (4 bags, but we didn't know that in advance) midweek.
On the SCGB trip a good number of people were reluctant to spend any time doing any drills (I asked if we could do some digging, and no one else wanted to), whereas most of us in the UCPA group were very keen (certainly no one complained, and everyone took them seriously). I don't want to generalize too much from these experiences, but at the same time, a culture in which drills are an indispensable (and ultimately enjoyable, as well as potentially life-saving) part of the week will come to look very different from one in which they just don't take place.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@welshflyer, Pipau is the second pre-season Bash, its great fun, and conditions have been great in previous years. There is one group with a instructor who will include transceiver training and snow/avalanche awareness. There will also be at least one group skiing off piste with volunteer leaders (assuming conditions are suitable). I will also organise practice sessions, please PM me if you want to join in. Its good to regularly refresh, and some may feel these sessions helpful, whatever level of experience you have.
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Interesting about choosing a leader. I can't say it's something I've ever done. Although, I've usually toured as a group of only 3 or 4, so perhaps less relevant. I can understand for a bigger group it making sense to have 1 person leading. A potential downside is perhaps the non-leaders "switch off" somewhat.
@JayRo, I'd be interested to know the average age of the two groups.
It doesn't surprise me that many don't want to do transceiver training during their holiday. They probably look at it as eating into their (perhaps limited) ski time. Perhaps a solution to minimise training time could be some kind of online test prior to arrival, and then a pass/fail practical test the first morning.
I remember reading an article in a ski magazine a few years ago where they stopped skiers about to go out of bounds at Vail and gave them a questionnaire and also asked them to find a buried transceiver. The best performance was by some kids that had no professional training and we're going on their first tour. In preparation they'd been watching YouTube videos, reading everything they could, and practicing in their garden. Shows that there is really no reason you can't turn up in resort already prepared.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@JayRo, Agree that drills are important, and good to hear of your experience with UCPA. UCPA instructors are also notoriously variable - as are Freshtracks. I've been on many Freshtracks holidays, and similar with other operators. I understand Freshtracks now make it mandatory to do some transceiver training, however in practice this is of mixed quality as you point out. Guides are variable in their skill and interest in running sessions. As a ski club leader / rep I have encouraged guides to run sessions, and helped set up effective practice sessions - however this is easier when conditions are not great. I have also run sessions for in resort repped (SCGB volunteer leading) groups.
The motivation for this post was thinking how to encourage and assist safe principles and practice (and some learning if appropriate) given that we will have snowheads and other groups skiing offpiste with volunteer leaders - and variable experience levels.
I plan one or two practice sessions on the Saturday / Sunday early eve at Pipau. I would encouraged more experienced to join in and also support all, and will also speak to instructors at Pipau. Hope this is welcomed, it is as you point out important.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Interesting about choosing a leader. I can't say it's something I've ever done. Although, I've usually toured as a group of only 3 or 4, so perhaps less relevant. ... Shows that there is really no reason you can't turn up in resort already prepared. |
Good points. Leading is very interesting to me. It is more of an issue with mixed ability groups. Leading the skiing is not necessarily the same as leading a rescue - and leadership can take different forms of course. It is important to note that in French law no ifs or buts the 'law' will decide who the leader was or should have been, and they have additional duty of care. They face very stiff sanctions (jail) if they get it wrong. This is a point largely missed by SCGB's rather confused rules, and highly compromised legal position, on repping and leadership which will end up with some poor rep in very serious trouble.
Whilst making that point, it is much "safer" to volunteer lead a Snowheads group than a similar SCGB group. However any person the authorities would deem to be a leader needs to be sensible.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| @JayRo, I'd be interested to know the average age of the two groups. |
SCGB: early 40s to mid-60s, distribution was two early 40s and the rest in or close to the 55-65 band.
UCPA: late 20s to late 50s (one late 20s, 3 30s, one early 40s, one late 50s)
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You know it makes sense.
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| pisteoff wrote: |
| I understand Freshtracks now make it mandatory to do some transceiver training, |
They might say they do, but unless you count a guide scribbling a search route on the back of an envelope over lunch as 'training', then in practice no, they don't; this was less than a year ago.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just for the record: ever since the first Spring Off Piste Bash, search/transceiver/dig practice was the one compulsory event of the week for those wanting to ski with the guided groups (ie everyone).
This is done on the first morning, whatever the conditions.
I once had a young guide declare, "No but the snow is good, I think they want to ski, no."
We were short one guide for the first couple of hours due to the weather causing traffic issues so we'd split the guideless group between the others for the practice session. So this guy just shot off into the back country with a group of 8 that he'd never seen ski before.
That was the last time I employed him, for sure!!
Aside from the fact that every single time U do it, U learn something new, you're about to step out into a dangerous environment, putting your trust in a bunch of people, some of whom at least, you probably just met. If one (or more) of them happens to be a useless twunt, best to find out in a low risk setting.
I remember one occasion when everyone (some quite experienced) was wandering around randomly for a good 10 minutes before we realised one guy had his beep in transmit.
"Oh I just bought it" he said, "I don't know how it works."
"Did you not think to ask? What did you actually think you were looking at, as you walked around for the last 10mins staring at it?"
So I knew to keep an eye on him, which proved useful as he was not one to speak up when he ought.
We have put on a mountain safety workshop at the PSB this year. The cost is subsidised to the tune of 50% compared to the normal cost of the time of instructor[s] running it. Surprisingly, we only got take-up to fill one group while the 'Intro to off-piste' technique sessions filled 3 groups.
We've a way to go to get folk thinking properly about safety 
Good thread @pisteoff!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| admin wrote: |
We have put on a mountain safety workshop at the PSB this year. The cost is subsidised to the tune of 50% compared to the normal cost of the time of instructor[s] running it. Surprisingly, we only got take-up to fill one group while the 'Intro to off-piste' technique sessions filled 3 groups.
We've a way to go to get folk thinking properly about safety
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Have you considered making the workshop 'free' (by which I mean, including the costs of running it in the price of either the price of the bash or the off-piste sessions), and/or making it compulsory for the off-piste sessions (by which I mean: if you haven't attended the off-piste safety session you don't get to go on the session, and lose what you've paid for)? It seems to me that either or both of those would go a long way to get folk thinking better about safety. If organizers treat it as an optional add-on, that's how people will see it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We've done free ones in the past, impromptu, when we've had a gap in an instructor's schedule.
The hope was that by sharing the cost this way, we could schedule them in advance and run [many] more of them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pisteoff,
Thanks for the offer to join you on Pipau. I was simply trying to establish what sort of group you would potentially be leading.
I have done a bit of off piste skiing with qualified guides, I have been to a few "HAT" talks (Henry's Avalanche Talks); been on a SCGB Off Piste course and try to practice using my transceiver whenever possible.
I believe that the original purpose of this thread was to try to come up with a mnemonic to help you remember what you do when skiing off piste and what to do if your group is caught in an avalanche.
There are professionals who give training courses for these things. Admin has basically said that one Pipau group will receive some training from a professional. Any of you who want to ski off piste should go to that training.
The issue with coming up with a nice long mnemonic like "AM I ALIVE" is that you're now trying to find the actions to go with it. The process should be reversed, what are the actions in chronological order that you need to carry out and then can you create a mnemomic.
Basically there are 2 subjects here to consider/address.
1) How do you avoid getting into an avalanche situation.
2) What do you do if your group is caught in an avalanche.
The first subject "avoiding the avalanche situation" is a very big complex subject in itself. A mnemomic would never be comprehensive enough to cover all aspects of this.
The second subject "what you do in an avalanche situation" needs as simple quick procedure because time is of the essence to find the casualty and dig them out in less than 20 minutes. There is no point going through a long list in your mnemomic doing things and wasting time doing things that are not needed in your actual situation.
You are correct in saying that one key aspect in a rescue is that one person should take charge of managing the situation and resources.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@welshflyer, I think we agree on the principles and importance, although 20 mins is too long, 10 mins has to be the target. And you cannot beat experience, training and practice.
The mnemonic is pretty good mind - and can be used as a framework and aid memoire when learning / practicing / revising. It also helps people to be realistic about what they do and don't know, and what type of group and leadership will work for them. Of course in depth behind each of these points (eg avoid, mitigate (eg snowpack knowledge), search etc) takes learning and practice. The point is you need to make the right calls when on the snow and act quickly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pisteoff,
We are basically in agreement on this subject.
You have clearly attended the correct courses. The difficulty is putting these things into practice quickly if/when you have to. Also you probably don't know what the others in your group know or don't know.
If admin is saying he can arrange some training for the those not on Pipau then any of them wanting to ski off piste should take that training.
If I was expected to take a group off piste I would expect them all to at least know how to use their transceiver, probe & shovel.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| JayRo wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| @JayRo, I'd be interested to know the average age of the two groups. |
SCGB: early 40s to mid-60s, distribution was two early 40s and the rest in or close to the 55-65 band.
UCPA: late 20s to late 50s (one late 20s, 3 30s, one early 40s, one late 50s) |
Ok. Ime (and of course I'm generalising) the older guys tend to think they know everything. "I've been skiing x years and never caught in a slide". Trouble is there's a lot of false reinforcement, as the vast majority of the time you can make poor decisions but get away with it. Whereas the younger people tend to be either more open to learning or just gung ho no cares at all thinking they are invincible. I suspect the ucpa courses attract more of the former.
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So this guy just shot off into the back country with a group of 8 that he'd never seen ski before.
That was the last time I employed him, for sure!!
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I don't disagree with the sentiment. I mostly tour solo or with people I know quite well. But when it comes to a new person or group I'm pretty picky. To the point where if they are not equally picky (i.e. asking me about my experience, qualifications, suggesting we ski something mellow first etc.) I'm a bit suspicious. That all said I've happily took complete beginners off piste/touring before. Of course we stick to non avalanche terrain so there is no real risk of being buried, and even then I make them carry equipment, and do a basic transceiver search, as I think it's right to install good habits and an appreciation that there is danger involved (I don't mention the slope is too mellow to slide).
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| pisteoff wrote: |
@JayRo, Agree that drills are important, and good to hear of your experience with UCPA. UCPA instructors are also notoriously variable - as are Freshtracks. I've been on many Freshtracks holidays, and similar with other operators. I understand Freshtracks now make it mandatory to do some transceiver training, however in practice this is of mixed quality as you point out. Guides are variable in their skill and interest in running sessions. As a ski club leader / rep I have encouraged guides to run sessions, and helped set up effective practice sessions - however this is easier when conditions are not great. I have also run sessions for in resort repped (SCGB volunteer leading) groups.
The motivation for this post was thinking how to encourage and assist safe principles and practice (and some learning if appropriate) given that we will have snowheads and other groups skiing offpiste with volunteer leaders - and variable experience levels.
I plan one or two practice sessions on the Saturday / Sunday early eve at Pipau. I would encouraged more experienced to join in and also support all, and will also speak to instructors at Pipau. Hope this is welcomed, it is as you point out important. |
A huge chunk of the UCPA ethos is getting people to a standard where they can do activities unsupported(/accepting that the groups they use WILL do activities unsupported). As a result every off piste trip I have done with them has been ruthless about doing practice transceiver searches because they can't assume groups will have guides to rescue them in future. Hell, I did a trip where they arranged to do a days off piste with a piste group (requiring a different instructor supervise as the assigned instructor wasn't fully qualified (AFAIK this was part of the reason - they wanted/needed to practice for certifications). As part of this they arranged to borrow transcievers the day before so they could do transceiver searches. And yes, I mean searches plural (single burial, multi burial and multiple searchers).
I don't like doing transceiver searches (time that could be spent skiing), but:
1. I have come across different techniques from different guides with different tradeoffs (e.g. differing opinions in how you do searches with bigger groups etc (generally main concern was that you have some idea - an average search done right now is better than a perfect search in 20 minutes... But this means having some discussion in advance because you shouldn't be doing it during...)
2. If anything, despite having done several off piste trips a year for several years where each independantly does a search practice, I still don't do searches often enough to regard myself as good at them. Especially given an awful lot of groups do the bare minimum.
3. I have done enough that I expect that any random group of 6 people I ski with (inc supposidly capable/experienced off piste skiers) is likely to have someone unfamilar with their transceiver. Whether because it is new, they have never used one, or they are renting a design they haven't used before doesn't matter; Realising someone is using a borrowed transceiver and has gotten to a practice search at the end of a day (or several days) off piste skiing only to ask how they change mode (why wasn't that the first question asked when it was handed to them...)
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It sounds a lot like doing "man overboard" drills, sailing. Typically I've done them on quiet, windless days which are not good for sailing. When it's blowing a hoolie and everyone's hanging on, and turning round would probably mean reefing, nobody is so keen to chuck the dan buoy overboard.
The thing is, sailing is actually quite a safe activity. Very few people drown, especially amongst the sort of recreational boaters I've been around with. And skiing, even off piste, is pretty safe too. Not many people in the world die in avalanches each year. Driving tired down the motorway at 75 mph in the fog is much more dangerous.
It's easy to be complacent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I did a Level 1 Avalanche Course a few years ago and, probably somewhat unsurprisingly, would recommend it to anyone who skis offpiste (whether with a guide or not). It's accessible - only 3 days, you can attend them in the alps (I went with the excellent Avalanche Geeks, Bruce and Mike) and affordable. As well as theory, they drill practice into you in a big way. A step up from throwing a bag or two under the snow and timing it. Add to that practical application of route planning in avalanche terrain, made it a superbly beneficial course. Worth 'sacrificing' 1.5 days in a classroom for.
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@pisteoff, as per @admin's comment; a great thread topic
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Like @Sharkymark, I "invested" in a course, mine was the week-long Euro Avalanche course in La Grave, which is what UK aspiring Mountain guides and professionals have to do, the final day exams as I've mentioned before on here, were off the scale in terms of stress and the subsequent adrenalin rush, as a number of group scenarios were played out that you were marked on, this was after a morning's individual examination of snow-pit analysis/transceiver practice etc
However all of the above didn't, a few years later stop me from getting caught, in what potentially could have easily been fatal, had the tree not caught me upside down, as I'd really switched my avy awareness brain off as I entered the forest 
This past season I did put some of what I learnt into actual practice as we were first on to the scene after a massive slide up at the Lautaret, again a major adrenalin rush in getting to the area, but we were 98% sure no one was caught, but it still involved calling PGHM heli and searching prior to their arrival, and the size of the slide was such that no-one would have stood a chance.
We don't ski in groups of more than three or four, and I'd like to think I'd be useful, but I'm often first down, and should something God forbid happen to say my OH above me, I probably would not be able to make it back up to her in time; and that's one reason why I always ski with touring kit.
The more days you ski and the more frequently that you ski naturally raises the stakes, plus for ever striving to ski untreacked, also pushes the boundaries, I'm still amazed when I see a slope go that I've never seen before or worse still hear of a fatal incident in an area one often skis.
Obviously, ski touring also raises the chances as a fair number of incidents are from stuff coming down from above catching people as they climb up.
I use the Fatmap Avalanche terrain layer tool often, especially for new routes, as you'd be foolish not to; though when climbing you can often identify the best route options, and that's often the line you'll ski back down, and as a marker often when having to kick-turn that tends to be when you're venturing into +25° terrain
I would say that as you get older you do become far more aware of your surroundings and don't tend to take the chances that you use to, so we're proud members of what we call the 25° Club 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Weathercam, Excellent post. Do you need to pay extra for that fatmaps layer?
The 25' club sounds very sensible ... (30' OK though?). Heavy snow is a pain though.
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Encore to everything in @Weathercam, post. I too, work on the 25° degree principle.
Henry.....HAT promotes " low hanging fruit" ie don't overreach.
I still shudder at a "super star" in the cable car up to Schlithorn (Mürren) who corrected my remarks about 30°. Oh no he exclaimed its 40° when you need to worry.
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You know it makes sense.
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On the acronym ... Once you're in an emergency situation, that part of the protocol is all that matters[1]. And because you're dealing with the two things (avoidance, rescue) in a very different mind set, I'm unsure it's a great idea to have one acronym for both.
I would also want to emphasise that leadership is the first and most important thing. Having watched the Covid-19 inquiry, I'd say that principle has broader application too.
--
[1] Sure, you have to assess the ongoing "hang fire" risk, but that's a different type of risk assessment and the stakes are potentially vastly different anyway.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'll also throw this one out there....
Since I've been going off-piste (1st La Grave trip 97) gear, tech, attitudes, knowledge etc have changed immensely.
I've not actually skied with a guide for a couple of years, but even prior to my last sortie the guides I went with most frequently all skied on touring gear, obviously it was in the main because we were touring or doing slack country, but it really is a no brainer that if you are a leader you might well have to get back to someone, even if it's for a lost ski, so I always ski with skins in my pack.
So I thoroughly recommend if skiing off-piste, even if lift accessed, if you're remotely in interested in being able to help in a situation that you should be on touring gear, as all the focus seems to be on transceivers but all pretty useless if you're stuck 75m down the hill in deep snow and can't get to the incident in time!
How many of you that wear an ABS are not on touring gear, would I want to ski with you in the knowledge that should something happen there's probably only a 50% chance you could get to me in time depending on whether you were below or above me.
Food for thought/discussion ?
Should also add, walkie talkies, it has been known for people to go over a ridge into a bowl, in effect taking a wrong turn and then loose the others in the group, not good when there's no phone signal, that said the off piste was so dire last season, we didn't use them.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 24-11-23 15:35; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is there a need for a new mnumonic? I know HAT has his checklist and I'm guessing there are others already. Whats practiced/taught on the avi training courses. Isn't this just reinventing the wheel?
Surely trying to stick to one well known system is better, as its more likely that any group you join will be singing from the same hymn sheet.
Either way, I'd agree with
@welshflyer, and @phil_w, that the rescue section is best kept separate. The first part you think of before each decent/pitch. The rescue bit perhaps only at the beginning of the day when doing transceiver/kit checks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Weathercam, the touring gear is an interesting point. I do tend to agree most guides should probably be on touring gear. It provides more options full stop, but going up to retrieve a lost ski or coach someone through a crux seem obvious examples.
In some cases I'm sure it can help with avalanche rescue. But you have to account for some time lost transitioning (perhaps a reason to take a guide on skis over a snowboard!). Then you have the issues of the slope potentially being too steep for skinning to be quicker than bootpacking and potential chunky avalanche debris being easier to get through without skis on.
I have considered it before when I've dropped in last. Even with touring gear it would have been potentially quite a slow and physically demanding to reach me if there was a slide.
Perhaps the best solution is to ski shorter pitches before finding a safe zone, so you are never that far away should something happen.
Absolute game changer for me. A lot of my backcountry has been chutes where you have no visibility of the person dropping in. Not only does it let the people above know the skier is down/in an area of safety and the next can drop, but it can provide some really nice info:
"Don't go too hard there's a patch of ice/rocks halfway down"
"At the crux stay skiers left for the easiest way down"
Etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@adithorp, Whatever works for you. if you have a different framework that works for you then that's brilliant.
The AM I ALIVE format covers all the bases, but deliberately briefly. It's pretty good btw, and soundly based - however you should make your own call of course. The point of the thread and checklist is to try to encourage and support safer group skiing off piste - especially in Snowheads group, which is all about all of us that do it - so thanks for adding your experience into the mix.
You can use the checklist as I do; as an aid memoire, to recognise where your skills are good, and where you would like to improve, and a quick reminder - It also helps I hope in understanding how you can best fit in and support a group - are you a leader, or a responsible member of the group? Are your skills thin in some areas, perhaps you need to make sure the leader is aware?
Its not an on the snow guide of course. Nor a training aid for specific skills such as search. That's all about training and practice.
HAT is excellent btw, as I am sure you've found. He tends to focus on the AM I (avoid, mitigate, personal responsibility) parts of the mix - which are the key to safety - . One of the dangers of this type of thread is it gets bogged down in how to do a search - this is after the event and only has a 50% success rate - even for experienced, well equipped groups. Good AMI involves good leadership, and a group that works well with the leader. (in groups of similar and higher levels of experience leadership can and is shared)
So perhaps we can drill down into the planning, snowpack, group management, observation etc parts of avoid and mitigate at some point later in this thread or elsewhere. There are a couple of good posts on this point already - do add your own thoughts
Hope this is helpful, but please do add your own experience.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Sharkymark wrote: |
| @pisteoff, as per @admin's comment; a great thread topic |
Thanks Sharky and @admin, much appreciated from you two!. I was sticking my neck out a little, however felt it was important. You can tell I was wrestling with how best to support this for Snowheads groups safely. It is all too easy to make assumptions / peer pressure or whatever which mean you can miss important things. The groups I have skied with on Snowheads have been great btw
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I’m not too concerned about what gear the guide is using. Often they are on touring skis, but it doesn’t seem to matter when they can run up a slope without skins in seconds to retrieve whatever/whoever needs help, then ski down and do it again. All the guides I’ve skied with have been super fit and strong.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yeah I think the civvies' use of touring gear to gain serious height while searching avy choss is a bit unrealistic. I guess you might skin up to the side and traverse in when you pick up a signal if terrain permits.
I've always thought one of the best educations is to inspect a slide path up front. It's hard to contextualise how that loose snow is churned into fast setting concrete until you see it up close. Dispels any notion that an airbag will automatically float you to the surface or that you can "swim" out readily.
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I suppose I should have stated the obvious, in that it depends on the snow-pack.
@Scarlet, have you ever tried walking up even a 20 ° slope in thigh deep powder.
I was with a guide in really deep fresh snow (Prali) and we were skiing under the chairlift and a friend ended up not too far away in a snow hole having issues getting to his ski that had come off, guide quickly assessed situation and it was out with the skins.
When I did my infamous cliff fall, mate had to ski down and around the face, then it was out with the skins to get to me.
If you're skiing a bowl you could be a good distance from the end of the slide or simply be in an area where you can lend assistance etc
In fact fortunately skiing off piste in fresh deep snow the vast % of us will encounter a group member with a lost ski / equipment issue rather than an avy related issue.
And re slides and paths etc take a look at that link I posted above when I was first on the scene having raced up to it by foot, it was however Spring snow.
Experience to-date has demonstrated to me at least that packing skins is a good option for possible what if scenarios, of which there can be many!
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I've always thought one of the best educations is to inspect a slide path up front. |
I agree - it's quite humbling.
| Quote: |
| It's hard to contextualise how that loose snow is churned into fast setting concrete until you see it up close. Dispels any notion that an airbag will automatically float you to the surface or that you can "swim" out readily. |
Yh but when the snow is moving, it's behaving as a fluid and so the airbag reduces the average density of you as an object and increase your tendency to drift towards the surface. It solidifies as it stops and you're obviously going to stand a better chance of being found and extracted quickly if you're near the surface.
But you know all that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Dispels any notion that an airbag will automatically float you to the surface or that you can "swim" out readily. |
Interested in this comment. Well aware that debris is impossible ... hence desire not to get buried. But the physics of airbags is that you tend to stay on the top of any slide because you are the biggest particle - like shaking muesli - do you think / know airbags don't work like they claim?
I am aware that the biggest problem with airbags is non-deployment - and have heard stories of people who have been caught and tried but simply could not deploy. (hence the remote deployment options)
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[quote="admin"]
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... it's behaving as a fluid and so the airbag reduces the average density of you as an object and increase your tendency to drift towards the surface. ... |
Yes - although perhaps surprisingly a different bit of physics - not floating (lower density), but particle theory. If you shake a bag of muesli the large particles will always rise to the surface ...
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FAQ
