Carte Vitale and insurance

A snowHead

Hi all,

Looking for some info from people who are familiar with the French health system. I am pretty new to skiing and also new to France. As a non-French resident in France with a Carte Vitale, if I buy rescue insurance in resort to cover helicopter and other rescues, do I still need ski insurance? Or would all medical costs be covered by Carte Vitale / Mutuelle? I have tried looking online and I am a bit confused.

Cheers!

A snowHead

@northernrookie, You (almost?) certainly need insurance. Your mutuelle (assuming you have one anyway) probably (defo?) won't cover on mountain rescue or transport to a medical centre.

I was blood wagoned off in January and ambulanced to the med centre. Cost about €500 which would have been my cost had I not been insured. Thereafter costs of medics//treatment/etc., covered as normal.

[[Bizarrely, had I been helicoptered off from off-piste, iirc it would have been free. (That's a Chamonix thing no idea elsewhere).]]

We use the Vieux Campeur "Club" insurance, I think it was €30 each for the year this year.

One point, should you need to claim - phone them. I reported online on the Europ-Assistance website, got an acknowledgement and it was promptly lost. Luckily I had that email as otherwise they'd have tried to wriggle out of it.

Also not helped that when they paid, Chamonix mairie reported it to the fisc as unpaid so a few weeks later I had threatening bailiffs letters arriving rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As @under a new name says you need some sort of rescue insurance...we also have Vieux Campeur Club insurance.... We've saved more than it costs in discounts in store!! Be aware though the medical cover is relatively small so if you hop over the border to enjoy other mountains you need to make sure you have your CEAM and that your mutuelle includes cover abroad.

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@northernrookie, Last year we used https://www.passeportmontagne.com/ and you can see from the site all that it covers etc

But this year I might look at the CAF as in the past I used to go with them on some of their organised tours.

After all it is free

Can anyone point out any major differences between the Vieux Campeur, Passeport Montagne and the Club Alpin Ile de France insurances? I have had a look at each of the small print and they seem similar but reading insurance small print is hard enough in English, let alone in French

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My friend (a non French resident) simply gets carte-neige insurance when buying his lift pass. This cover rescue from the hill, repatriation etc. When you buy your lift pass simply say "yes" when asked if you want insurance. He has no other travel or mountaineering insurance.

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Yes. I've used it. That would have been under a travel insurance policy. They refused to take me any further than La Tania when I was injured in the Maurienne Valley.

You know it makes sense.

It's not very well worded which is why I always clarify it. It uses the word "home" but then defines it in the small print as:

Transport & Repatriation
Actual expenses
First transport costs for the journey from the
medical premises to the insured’s vacation spot

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I see they have also re-written the main document to be clearer than it used to be:

Coverage of first transport costs to the nearest medical center
or hospital and return to the resort within 48 hours following the
accident.

A snowHead

@Je suis un Skieur, which document are you calling the "main document"? From the PID (https://carreneige.com/en/nos-offres/carre-neige/documents-contractuels/) it's clear that repatriation to home is covered (and I've heard of people utilising that cover).

What do you mean when you say "they" wouldn't take you beyond La Tania? Who is "they"?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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@sugarmoma666, No my first quote comes from the table at the beginning of section 4:
4.REPATRIATION ASSISTANCE (MUTUAIDE)
Transport & Repatriation
Actual expenses
First transport costs for the journey from the
medical premises to the insured’s vacation spot

The issue is the use of the word "home" in the wording in section 4.1. If you are a UK holidaymaker, you may consider your "home" to be your permanent residence in the UK. They (Mutuaide/Carre Neige) do not. Their definition of home is the place where you are staying, hence why it says "vacation spot" in the above table.

If you look at the wording in 4.4 for repatriation of a corpse, that says country of residence rather than home. In my experience, if you're still kicking, it's your job to get back to the UK.

I guess there might be some exceptional circumstances like a coma or brain death where they would cover transport to a UK hospital for permanent care but for the average skiing injury like a broken bone they will only cover you back to where you're staying.

In my particular case, I tried to get them to drive my hire car back to Geneva so I could catch my flight home and they basically said, "We've already transported you from hospital in St Jean back to your apartment in La Tania so that's the end of our obligation".

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@Je suis un Skieur, you seem to have had a different experience to the one described here:

https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=161812&start=320#5122324

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Well you can argue that that person's clearly immobile so the medical team has justified it on those grounds. It clearly says the medical team's decision is final on whether "full" repatriation is covered or not.

However, you might also note that when that person was dealt with, the repatriation cover was provided by Europ Assistance. It's now Mutuaide and the wording in the first box in Table 4 is not the same as it was under Europ Assistance, the difference being that the sentence I have referenced is new, "First transport costs for the journey from the medical premises to the insured’s vacation spot".

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Je suis un Skieur, you know that Carré and Carte Neige are very different things? And underwritten by different insurance companies? I don't really think you can refer to them as in any way interchangeable.

Also, that Carré Neige is only valid in the partner resorts in the Savoie and not anywhere else, Carte Neige is global (or at least it can be).

The annoyance with Carte Neige is that you have to join the FFS, which means joining a race club, which usually adds cost, and isn't always convenient.

In the past I have "represented" tha Annecienne Postal and Telecoms Workers Union Ski Club, the St Julien de Genevoise Cheesemakers' Society, Samoens Junior First Time Race Hopefuls and the Chamonix Old Folks Drinking Team.

You also have to get a medical certificate for the first one.

Whereas Vieux Campeur is cheap and instant. I would note that we have always had good general travel insurance cover and, of course, the CEAM.

After all it is free

@under a new name, yes I know. I am merely showing my age by remembering when you couldn't have carre neige on a season pass, only carte neige. I've had both. Who is the insurer for carte neige then? I'm pretty sure it was also Europ Assistance, has it changed? Do you have a copy of the repatriation policy for carte neige so we can see the differences?

@Je suis un Skieur, othehr way around, Carte Neige are underwritten by E-A, Carré Neige by Soc Gen and "Mutuaide" whoever they are. I don't have any details other than that but google on Happy

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@under a new name, no that's exactly the way round that I wrote. It's not my job to google it, you're the one claiming that they are very different. I suggest you provide the proof to back up your claims.

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This is a fascinating discussion and the more I look into it the trickier it seems to become. For example https://www.seelesarcs.com/ski-insurance says
"Ski insurance to help get you safely off the hill, Carré Neige and Carte Neige insurances are both types of French winter insurance cover that can be purchased by anyone living in the EU." Note the phrase "anyone living in the EU" guess which country is no longer in the EU. It also states
"Carte Neige and Carré Neige may give limited cover for some of the transportation costs back home."
The Carré Neige website says that is only for children and for a raplacement driver if you are unable to drive.

I cannot find anything on Carte Neige insurance. Except as @under a new name, says through a sports club. I supose you walk into the resort sport club and ask.

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@Je suis un Skieur, FFS rolling eyes

It's not my job to do anything.

I was told by the president of my previous French ski club that repatriation by Carte Neige was just to my vacation address in France, but there was an exception for French citizens resident in the UK who could be repatriated to the UK.

You know it makes sense.

To clarify, before Carre Neige was available on a season pass (which was introduced in either 2018 or 2019), you could only get season cover with Carte Neige from the ESF, tourist office or similar by allying yourself to the local Club des Sports. At least where I am. The cover at the time was near identical for both, you didn't need a medical certificate and I think they were both underwritten by Europ Assistance.

It looks like they have now gone their separate ways with different underwriters, along with season cover being introduced by Carre Neige. I remember the medical certificate part being introduced for Carte Neige around the same time. I'm going to surmise that E-A may well have dropped Carre Neige because it was too expensive to underwrite. Especially if they were being told by the medical teams to do Foreign repatriations. By only covering FFS associations under Carte Neige, I would expect repatriation claims to mostly be domestic for E-A and therefore much cheaper.

It's notable that the Repatriation part of the latest Carre Neige is a separate insurer, so they can drop it or re-insure that part of the policy as may be necessary. In short, Carre Neige is now aimed very much at recreational skiers of all origin, Carte Neige is now aimed primarily at French residents who live local to a ski hill and are probably in a race club. Just my theory.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Because I am an extremely lovely person however, https://carreneige.com/en/ =>

The «Carré Neige Saison» policy, contracts nos CNS2101 and 9410 et 9411 (valid as
from 01.11.2023) is a group insurance policy, subscribed by:
- SAVOIE SKI PERFORMANCES, registered association, governed by the law of 1 July
1901 amended, with headquarters located 53 Avenue des XVIème J.O d’Hiver 73
200 ALBERTVILLE - FRANCE, for the benefit of Policyholders who wish to be covered
for all the guarantees described below;
- with SOGESSUR – a Limited Company governed by the French Insurance Code,
a Limited Company with share capital of €33,825,000, which is registered on
the Nanterre Trade and Companies Register under No. 379 846 637, and has its
registered office at Tour D2 – 17bis Place des Reflets – 92919 Paris La Défense Cedex
9, adresse de correspondance SOGESSUR – TSA 91102 – 92894 Nanterre Cedex 9,
France, in the capacity of Insurer;
- And from MUTUAIDE ASSISTANCE, located at 126, rue de la Piazza - CS 20010
– 93196 Noisy le Grand CEDEX. SA with capital of €12,558,240. Company
governed by the Insurance Code, subject to the control of the Prudential
Resolution Authority – 4 Place de Budapest, CS 92459, 75436 Paris Cedex 09 –
383 974 086 RCS Bobigny – VAT FR 31 383 974 086, as a ‘Insurer of Repatriation
Assistance guarantees and the First Transport Costs guarantee
- via the Ski Resort clubs and Ski lift Centers, heving the status of Insurance
Intermediary Agents (MIA in French) on an ancillary basis,
- mandated by the insurance broker GBC MONTAGNE , Résidence le Grand Coeur -
Bâtiment B - 298 Avenue du Maréchal Leclerc, 73700 BOURG ST MAURICE - FRANCE,
SAS, with a capital of €2,800,000 – RCS Chambéry No. 832 805 444, registered with
ORIAS (www.orias.fr) under the number 17 007 353.

And for Carte Neige, https://ffs.fr/garanties-dassurance/

"Nos collaborateurs référence: Verspieren, Europ-Assistance, Allianz" more details here, http://bao.ffs.fr/content/uploads/2022/09/DispositionsGeneralesContratIndividuelleAccident-Assistance2021-2022.pdf which is also rather more specific about,

"Si vous résidez en Europe géographique et qu’au cours d’un Déplacement, vous êtes malade ou blessé(e),
nos médecins se mettent en relation avec le médecin local qui vous a reçu à la suite de la Maladie ou de
l’Accident.
Les informations recueillies, auprès du médecin local et éventuellement du médecin traitant habituel, nous
permettent, après décision de nos médecins, de déclencher et d'organiser en fonction des seules exigences
médicales :
- soit votre retour à votre Domicile (That would be home then).
- soit votre transport, le cas échéant sous surveillance médicale, vers un service hospitalier approprié proche
de votre Domicile,
par véhicule sanitaire léger, par ambulance, par train (place assise en 1re classe, couchette 1re classe ou
wagon-lit), par avion de ligne ou par avion sanitaire."

A snowHead

^^ and that is exactly the issue I have been highlighting! That is the same wording as in the Carre Neige section 4.1. They use the French word domicile, translated into English as home, without ever actually defining in the small print what "home" is.

Except in the table in section 4 in the Carre Neige document which states it is your vacation spot.

A snowHead

And actually, now that I think back, my injury was in 2017 I think so it was under a Carte Neige policy that they refused to transport me any further than my vacation apartment.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

There are also multiple levels of Carte Neige.

You can join a club as a "supporter" and get recreational insurance. Or be also insured as a race official, for nordic or for alpine racing.

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@under a new name, I don't disagree with your general definition of domicile but it's irrelevant. What will matter in terms of the policy cover will be the policy's definition of domicile, not yours nor mine. However, it's good that you brought up the Carre Neige season policy because I've just been looking at the links for that and it has a further extended definition of domicile. https://carreneige.com/en/nos-offres/carre-neige-saison/

This is what it says en Francais:

Est considéré comme domicile, le lieu d’habitation principal et habituel de l’assuré et
figurant comme domicile sur son dernier avis d’imposition sur le revenu, au jour de son
adhésion. Pour les travailleurs saisonniers, pourra être également considéré comme
domicile le lieu d’habitation temporaire pendant la durée du contrat de travail saisonnier.

Which in English is:

Domicile is considered to be the main and usual place of residence of the insured person and
appearing as his domicile on his last income tax notice, on the day of his
membership. For seasonal workers, may also be considered as
domicile the place of temporary residence during the duration of the seasonal employment contract.

The Repatriation assistance, now section 5 says:
Transport & Repatriation
Actual expenses
First transport costs for the journey from the medical premises
to the insured’s vacation spot

I'm sure these things are open to interpretation but to me that says you're getting transported back to your French apartment, not the UK.

At the end of the day, it's €49 for a full season's cover, would you even get UK winter sports cover for a fortnight for that? It's very good value for helicopter evacuation cover (even off-piste with effectively no restrictions) for maybe 20+ weeks but there's got to be limit to what else people can realistically expect for that price. I've never bought it but season cover including repatriation purchased in the UK is what, £300? and off-piste eligibility is usually very tightly defined (must be with a guide etc.)

After all it is free

@Je suis un Skieur, I'm just curious where you get the "vacation spot" bit from as I see, (English version)

"5.1 Transport/repatriation
Following a guaranteed event, we organize and take care of your repatriation to your home or to a hospital near you.
Only medical requirements are taken into consideration to decide on the date of repatriation, the choice of means of transport or place of hospitalization.
The decision to repatriate is taken by our medical advisor, after consulting the occasional attending physician and possibly the family doctor.
During your repatriation, and upon prescription from our medical advisor, we organize and cover the transport of an accompanying person by your side.
Any refusal of the solution proposed by our medical team results in the cancellation of the personal assistance guarantee."

Puzzled

Anyhoo, it's nice that they so clearly define domicile, but I wasn't quoting my definition, just the one that I've always been defined by in numerous notarial meetings and contract signings.

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So, a bit more investigation suggests that repatriation to the UK is covered if you buy the daily carre neige as opposed to the season carre neige as long as it's a serious injury. The difference is in the "So what does that actually mean in real terms ?" section of the two policies, which are different.

Daily https://carreneige.com/en/nos-offres/carre-neige/:
*Accident while skiing or doing other winter sports in the ski area including the off-piste ski area that is accessible via ski-lift
*Accident while doing sledge
*Sickness during your stay
*You being immobilised as a result of an accident while skiing or doing other winter sports. « Carré Neige » will cover your repatriation.

Season https://carreneige.com/en/nos-offres/carre-neige-saison/:
*An insurance and an assistance in case of accident during skiing or the practice of snow sports as an amateur in all ski areas in Savoie (including the linked ski area).
*The off-piste ski area that is accessible via ski-lifts is covered.
*An insurance and an assistance in case of accident during touring skiing in mainland France and in neighbouring countries
*An insurance and an assistance in case of serious illness
*An insurance and an assistance in case of accident during the amateur practice of summer sports in all ski areas in Savoie

This makes sense as 14 days at the daily rate of €3.30 is nearly as much as the full season cover price.

So my conclusion is if, as in the example quoted by @sugarmoma666, you're on holiday with a one week pass plus insurance and have something happen that puts you in a wheelchair or stretcher, they will cover you. If you're walking wounded, they will only take you back to your vacation accomodation. If you have season cover, they will only take you back to your season accomodation whatever the injury. I didn't get any further assistance in my case because I had a season policy. The operative word is "immobilised", it's only mentioned on the daily policy and the medical team's opinion as to whether you're immobilised or not is final.

I think a fair few (non-working) UK seasonaires rely on season carre neige plus GHIC for their cover so it's both illuminating and a bit disappointing, as there's obviously a gap in the cover. Most ex-pat season workers will have employers' insurance so it's not so relevant to them. I think I'd rather pay more for the season cover and know that if something season ending happens, I'm covered for transport back to my permanent domicile rather than my temporary one. Maybe €99 or even €149 instead of €49 for that bit extra cover.

Ah well, every day's a school day...

Help!!

Carte Vitale and insurance

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