 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi everyone. I am considering a trip to Grand Massif this XMas week. I know its not an ideal time but its the only time our family can make it.
We are all advanced skiers, like on piste and off (we will probably hire a guide), will want ski in/out or short walk lodging, and ideally a place with some nice restaurants to choose from. We are not very cost sensitive for this trip.
Last time we went to Verbier (we are very focused on places with short transfer times from a major airport) and had a very nice trip there. In fact we were thinking about going back but thought it would be nice to try somewhere new.
My questions
1 - is this a good alternative to Verbier given my overview?
2 - from what I have read Flaine sounds like where we would want to do a lot of our skiing (more snow sure? more advanced?) although the trees also sound nice around Les Carroz. I dont have a sense...is it easy to stay near Les Carroz which sounds like it may be prettier and have more restaurants, but still easily do our skiing at Flaine? Or is it better to just stay up there?
Its hard from my reading to totally figure out how this area works and how easy it is to get around to where we are likely to do our skiing, so thank you to those who can give us guidance on this!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@lirong,
1. IME, for xmas week Verbier is a lot more confident for snow. If you liked it, I'd suggest you go again. Also, Verbier is much better for near_lift accessed off piste.
2. Flaine easy for ski in /out, pretty sure you can find same in Les Carroz. Flaine more snow sure being higher but it's not enormous if the lower areas haven't opened (yet).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I like the Grand Massif a lot and think it has plenty to offer for your abilities. Flaine is certainly more snowsure than most of the rest of the area, but the other parts are worthwhile too, depending on how the snow is lower down. Usually I recommend staying in Les Carroz with local tree skiing for stormy days, and the option of skiing across to Flaine when the sun comes out. However at Xmas, Les Carroz is a bit low to guarantee a decent number of open slopes. So, probably better to stay in Flaine if you are booking in advance.
Out of all the resorts around Geneva (assuming you are flying into there), I think Avoriaz is a slightly safer option in terms of snow reliability at that time of year. Might be worth considering there too.
There is admittedly less high (= snowsure) off piste terrain in the Grand Massif or Avoriaz compared to Verbier.
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I’m a huge fan of Les Carroz and would recommend Les Chalets De Jouvence at the foot of the slopes there but it is a risk going there in Christmas week. there will most likely be enough snow in Flaine but bear in mind that some of the most interesting runs like Les cascades and the gers area probably won’t be open then. Off piste will also be limited until the snow depth has built up. In summary you would have enough skiing for a week in Flaine at Christmas but you might be better off waiting until you can go there later in the season eg first week of feb or mid March to experience the whole ski area.
I would suggest flying to Turin and going to Montgenevre which opens early and tends to get the best snow in the Milky Way ski area.
Alternatively if you are willing to travel a bit further from an airport Les Arcs would be a good option.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@lirong, p.s. not sure there'll be enough to warrant a guide in December (not sure there ever is?)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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One only needs to have a look at the Flaine webcams in the summer to realise that the bowl needs a LOT of snow to allow decent (and safe) off-piste skiing. I’ve never been a fun of Flaine or the GM other than its proximity to GVA (so good for a long weekend). My suggestion would be to head over to Avoriaz or return to Verbier. Another option would be Gressoney in the Aosta valley.
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Love the bashing of the off-piste on offer at the Grand Massif. Keep it going… It means there will be more fresh stuff for us. Have skied off-piste repeatedly a few places including Verbier, Nendaz, Davos, Andermatt, Avoriaz, Chamonix, Les Contamines, Courmayeur, Zermatt, La Grave, Monterosa, Marmolada to name but a few…. Grand Massif is probably one of the Alps best kept secrets when it comes to the off piste on offer. And yes, you do need a guide - there are quite a few no fall lines scattered around.
But yes, keep the bashing. While you guys are scrambling for fresh tracks 3 hours after it has stopped snowing somewhere like Grand Montets or Mont Fort, I get to ski fresh backside of Gers for a week 
P.S To the OP - Flaine would be the most snow sure and ski in, but as others have said - if it’s like last year, proper powder didn’t arrive till Feb.
P.S.1 If Budget isn’t an issue - Club Med at Samoens 1600 is worth the money and they offer ESF guides, who are top notch.
P.S.2 GM is a terrible place. Y’all should keep out
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One problem with off-piste in Flaine is the geology of the area which has many cracks and crevasses hidden under the snow, and possibly mine workings. Take care 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| welshskier wrote: |
| One problem with off-piste in Flaine is the geology of the area which has many cracks and crevasses hidden under the snow, and possibly mine workings. Take care |
This is really only true of the Lapiaz area within the Flaine bowl, and it's quite well signed as such. There are quite a few netted off holes, but no guarantee of safety, so yes, best to avoid that area especially in poor visibility. But that's only a fraction of the off-piste available, and the rest of is as 'safe' as any off-piste can be.
It's been a while since I skied there, given we've been in CH for the last 20-odd years, but I did a lot of SCGB leading there in the early 2000s, and would still rate it as one of my favourite ski areas overall, with a variety of difficulties and terrain to rival most places. Verbier has more of a 'hard-core' reputation, but I'd go for GM out of preference.
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@Chaletbeauroc, 100pct agree....and we have our own place in Verbier!
GM is superb, Gers remains my favourite lift accessed off piste spot anywhere.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Chaletbeauroc, @rungsp, don't you think Verbier gets more consistent snow? Always looks like it to me. But I can sit in Chamonix and only look in envy at the webcams because it's crap round here 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@under a new name, Not studied any comparisons, so couldn't really say. The 4V has a lot more higher terrain, sure. but IME the Grand Massif microclimate gives a very reliable (if there is such a thing) snow cover as low as Flaine village (1600m) for pretty much the whole season. It also, when I was going there a lot, had a superb late snow record, often with fresh powder in some quantity falling late into April.
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| rungsp wrote: |
@Chaletbeauroc, 100pct agree....and we have our own place in Verbier!
GM is superb, Gers remains my favourite lift accessed off piste spot anywhere. |
Used to be mine until I went to Engelberg.
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You know it makes sense.
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I am telling you. Stay away. It’s crap
Joking aside - I was looking at some photos today. We had kneed deep powder on the 1st Jan 2020 and lapping Gers, the back of it as well as Arbaron was amazing. Fresh tracks every day…
If ski in and out is a priority and budget isn’t really an impediment then Club Med at Samoens 1600 should be looked at too. Marmots and the link to Flaine is open more often than not. The ESF off-piste guides are thrown in as part of the overall deal and from what my tight ass budget eyes could see inside, the venue is actually worth every penny. Also, if you are bored of flunkies obeying every wish of yours, Samoens town is only 15mins away in one of Club Med’s shuttles and then you can see how the other half live…
Le Grand Massif Off-Piste is a bit like Keyser Soze. The greatest trick it ever pulled is convincing the general public it never existed…
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@cheburator, we liked the skiing in the GM, but were unlucky that the snowline was above Les Carroz, where we stayed ( and the less said about the sc accom we had the better, it really was shıt. Thankyou Crystal), but once we'd got up to Flaine it was great. Flaine itself is not at all pretty if that's important to anyone. Sort of like Keighley but in the Alps. We had a guide for two days and had our first real off piste adventures there.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rungsp,
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Gers remains my favourite lift accessed off piste spot anywhere
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Mont Gelé? Stairway? Back of Mont Fort? etc., etc., ?
Or indeed closer to my bunk, Flégère?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thank you - I have received a lot of great feedback here and its very helpful and appreciated.
One thing I am trying to understand....it sounds like Carroz may be better than Flaine when it comes to a pretty town, places to eat, etc. If there isnt that much snow and we are going to be spending our time skiing at Flaine, is it still worthwhile to consider staying at Carroz? Is it easy enough to get over to Flaine by lift even when there isnt much low snow? Or does that not really make sense?
The Gessoney/Aosta/Monte Rosa suggestion was interesting...I am doing more research and I am sure I will have a bunch of questions on that region and best place to stay!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@lirong, my vague recollections (vague because I don't pay much attention to it) is that the run down to Les C is pretty well cannoned (?) and I don't recall in many visits 2004-2019 (and at all times of the season - an early retired mate had a house in Samoens, we visited often enough that it was usually marginal as to whether we should have a season pass there too) ever having an impassible issue. But prior performance, etc., ...
Last year may have been different but we are all of course rather hoping not for a repeat.
There's quite a lot of Monterosa chat in this thread https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=166026#5190030 and of course much more to find with a little search.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Les Carroz is a year round village so much more traditional, Flaine is purpose built for skiing and the architecture isn’t to everyone’s taste. LC has very few options for ski in ski out and anything near the village centre for the restaurants etc you are after is a long walk or a bus ride to the main lifts. The links to Flaine in my experience are rarely closed due to snow but can be for wind. Flaine has lots of good restaurants and is snow sure and has stunning views….
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Stay in Les Carroz, much prettier.
Flaine is essentially a council estate in the mountains.
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It can take a bit of up and down to get to Flaine from Les Carroz, so keep that in mind. (Kedeuze from Les Carroz, then down to the Tete de Saix, then down to the Flaine border/Vernant lift. I'm guessing 20-30 minutes? There are buses which we have taken once and recall also taking about the same amount of time, but could be remembering wrong, too...
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Grand Massif is absolutely one of my favourite places, but I would not go in December or January for that matter. Gers bowl is one of best off piste areas anywhere, but the lifts serving it aren't open till February.
Go somewhere high altitude. Tignes you ate guaranteed good off piste even in December
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There aren’t regular buses from Les carroz to Flaine. I think the Les carroz ski bus only goes to the Tete de Saix / molliets carpark.
We have always driven to Les carroz so had our car available in resort. This has meant we have sometimes skied over to Flaine and back but had the option of driving there if we want to spend the whole day in Flaine or the weather conditions haven’t been ideal for skiing there and back.
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| snowymum wrote: |
There aren’t regular buses from Les carroz to Flaine. I think the Les carroz ski bus only goes to the Tete de Saix / molliets carpark.
We have always driven to Les carroz so had our car available in resort. This has meant we have sometimes skied over to Flaine and back but had the option of driving there if we want to spend the whole day in Flaine or the weather conditions haven’t been ideal for skiing there and back. |
The Les Carroz/Flaine express goes to the Flaine forum (terminus) from Les Carroz in 30 minutes, but I just checked the site and it runs only during the vacances scolaires. But I did take it! (last Christmas). I actually took it from Araches where my wife dropped off my son and I. I guess it wouldn't help if you weren't going during the vacations.
https://www.lescarroz.com/content/uploads/2022/12/Fh-Carroz-Flaine-Express2022-3volets-1.pdf
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We were in Flaine the week leading up to Christmas last year with a few other SnowHeads and OMFG for the last 2 days it's the wettest I've ever been when skiing. We were taking gondolas to stay out of the rain and wring out our gloves. On the Friday you could almost see the snow being washed away in the rain. I know, it possibly wasn't much better in other higher places as it was warm for the time of year but as most of the lifts go bottom to top, there was no option to stay high and do a middle lift to summit and stay in the snow. For most of the following fortnight, the whole area was closed for the holiday period.
Good luck and pray for snow!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@jd_evans, last year was extremely unusual! (And hopefully not to be repeated any time soon either!!)
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@under a new name, yup granted and it can happen any year. Sadly these events are seeming to become more frequent as things warm up. With the lower and smaller ski areas it's becoming more miss than hit. The converse is when we went at Easter to La Plagne, it was probably the best ever snow conditions on-piste I can remember but Paradiski is generally higher than GM and has more lifts higher up.
Maybe this season, Christmas will have massive amounts of snow and Easter will be a slush-fest, who knows?
As with everything else in life, you balance the risk you're happy with.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have an apartment is Terrasses d'Eos, Flaine Montsoleil, where I am at the moment. It is snowing, there is decent snow cover all around and there were skiers out yesterday on the Serpentine run, I guess they must have hijacked a skidoo to get up the hill. Last Christmas was a disaster in many French resorts, Flaine included, but that was unusual. The new block Belambra was mentioned above, my block is just below that and is also ski in ski out. The off piste is very good but it would be very unusual for the Gers bowl and its lift to be open that early in the season. If there is sufficient snow a guide can get you into the Gers bowl if you don't mind a bit of walking or skinning but getting out again could be a problem if Cascades isn't open. There is a good (but quite expensive) restaurant in my block and there is a free shuttle service in the evening to get you down to Foret where there are many restaurants. If you want more info PM me.
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