With hourly, daily, multi day, 5-in-7, season passes, age restrictions, duo / tribu / family, transferable, points systems, dynamic prices etc., I though there were enough different types of ski pass out there. But here's another one: at the ski resort of Hohsaas (near Saas-Fee) you can buy lift passes per metre of height gain: the "hoehenmeter" card.
You buy height credits at quantities of 3750m, 7500m or 15000m, and the height of each lift (or lift section) is subtracted from your remaining height balance each time you use it. You can also buy an "altitude map" which presumably depicts the vertical height change of each lift.
It helps that this is a small area with a handful of lifts, but the hoehenmeter still seems like an unnecessarily confusing version of the non-time-limited points system used in many resorts as an alternative to buying fixed duration ski passes. They can also only be used on specific dates in January and March.
Any other bizarre lift passes you've come across?
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denfinella wrote:
Any other bizarre lift passes you've come across?
ones where you buy a ticket at the bottom of the lift - usually a drag life
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@denfinella, I can see a modification based on this, with it being less expensive if you get on a full chair and more expensive if you're on your own. And different rates for t bars. Or even dynamic pricing
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I don't know that this is that unusual, but roving tickets as in the Haute Maurienne. You get as many of the days as you like in your own resort and a day each in any of the others.
@denfinella, I can see a modification based on this, with it being less expensive if you get on a full chair and more expensive if you're on your own. And different rates for t bars. Or even dynamic pricing
I like that, but you’d have to modify it based on the business if the lift at that time. Would be harsh to be penalised for getting on a lift on your own if there was no one else in the queue
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davidof wrote:
usually a drag life
So THAT'S what you do at weekends
After all it is free
After all it is free
If a ski station launches a new type of liftpass, it usually means they've put the price up and are trying to cloak it
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Quote:
the "hoehenmeter" card
Functions much like a points pass - they've been around for ages and the number of points you need for any single lift depends a lot on the vertical attained.
One way and another, the day of paying one price for a week, no matter which week it is, and how many lifts you take, must be numbered.
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I'd have a lift pass based on snow time, like this...
The assumption is, you need a lift at least once in order to enjoy time on the snow, but according to this rather alien principle, you are paying for time on the snow (not uplift). Therefore, if you spent 100% of your time on the lifts you'd not pay anything. And theoretically, upon getting the first lift, you'd pay say 70€ per 7 hour day on the snow, but that first lift of 15 mins would reduce that by 2€50, to 67€50.
In other words, the more time you spend on the lifts, the cheaper it is - and this includes queuing (advance gates) and lift breakdowns. Slopeside lunch & coffee stops would also have gated entrances and exits to refund time not on the snow. There would also be pass-stop units at the base station.
So, beginners would tend to pay more than expert skiers. And folk who just got a lift up to spend most of the day on a restaurant deckchair would pay very little indeed.
It also solves the issue of late risers vs early risers - no need for half day passes, etc.
The thing is, sometimes, especially in the Pyrénées, I think I've gone chairlifting, rather than skiing...
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@pam w, yes, I compared it to the points system in my original post.
I agree that a single fixed price makes little economic sense.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I must say I'm a bit of fan of the timed 3hr passes and the like. Means you can get a leisurely start go hard for the few hours then make sure you just squeeze in for last lift to the summit restaurant, have a leisurely lunch and ski down.
There should be more free passes for dressing like Elvis etc.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Snowbird used to have a morning half-day ticket. That was a sweet way to get the goods and control costs. They got wise of course.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
My favourites are one up tickets.
20 bux for a ride to the top and walk from there.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Dave of the Marmottes, similar idea to you, I quite like the idea of the morning pass (til 1pm). Lift to the highest point at 12.59pm, long lunch on the way down. By the time you've done that it's approaching closing time anyway.
@Scooter in Seattle, almost all Alpine ski areas still have these (as well as an afternoon only one). Though they are not half the price of a full day unfortunately
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Quote:
There should be more free passes for dressing like Elvis etc.
No no no. Along with animal onsies and men in dresses and wigs you shoud have to pay a surcharge.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Some bits in Dolomites could cost a bit. Unless you get a credit for going down a lift? And would a 2-way lift be free?
Borest-Sodlisia-Plans/Frara is quite a bit of lift time, and about 30 seconds of sliding, but not a massive altitude change, especially given the first is basically flat.
Canazei-Alba is 3 lifts, no skiing and quite an altitude change. They should refund you for going down 1 lift to the valley.
I'd charge double for people in fancy dress.
And triple for anyone that lets a chair go empty when busy.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I don't know how the running costs of a typical resort split, but would have thought that uplift (installing and running) is significantly more than piste operation (snow-making, overnight bashing, patrollers), so charging for uplift is the more sensible approach - and much easier to do
Points per lift seems fairest, and with most resorts now using electronic passes straightforward to implement. Slower / less active skiers (such as the over 65 / over 75s) automatically pay less, as do those parents who end up spending half their time on childcare. Either buy points in advance, and top-up when necessary, or link it to a credit card and bill automatically. Cap the cost for season users. And use it to proactively reduce bottlenecks: fewer points for using old / slow little used drag-lifts that get you to a similar place as a fast gondola, to help reduce queues.
But, people are there to ski, not to spend time on ski lifts as if fairground rides. While you encourage the notion that people buy lift passes to enjoy lifts, you will create the adverse incentive for lift operators to maximise the use of their lifts.
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Quote:
Points per lift seems fairest, and with most resorts now using electronic passes straightforward to implement.
As the capital cost of installing the lift is a major cost to the lift operator I assume that this means the first use of a lift costs, say 20€ and subsequent uses, say 2€, for a big demountable chair.
I am buying a paradiski season pass at 624€. I will probably ski for 20 days and use 10 lifts a day that means it costs me €3.08 per lift wether it is the Varet or the Vezaille.
As the capital cost of installing the lift is a major cost to the lift operator I assume that this means the first use of a lift costs, say 20€ and subsequent uses, say 2€, for a big demountable chair.
Wouldn't the cost would be amortized over the expected life of the lift?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w wrote:
One way and another, the day of paying one price for a week, no matter which week it is, and how many lifts you take, must be numbered.
Yes I feel like this is the direction we're heading - there's been a few threads/posts about the new model put in place by Les Arcs and La Plagne where non peak weeks have up to 40% reduction on the standard price - whereas other areas such as the 3V's are still on the old standard pricing model. They'll all be pouring over the weekly numbers to work out who's winning. If numbers are up enough for Les Arc/La Plagne, and down enough for other areas then they'll be under pressure to follow suit. Obviously 40% is a big cut - so they'll need a big swing of incremental skiers to make up for the lost revenue on the passes that they would have sold at full price.
My fear is that the either the 40% off will become more like 10-20% at most, or they'll have to fund the discount by increasing the peak week prices like the airlines do, which would then make a expensive holiday even more so.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@denfinella, yes, very true over there; rare or nonexistent over here (there are PM ones).
I sort of reflexively get a multi-day pass when I'm over there, but my spring days are often done by noon-ish, so I should consider @Dave of the Marmottes strategy as well. But I probably won't do it, as for me skiing is sort of about not caring what time it is.
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denfinella wrote:
... Any other bizarre lift passes you've come across?
The Epic Pass?
Well not bizarre exactly, but it's a business model which isn't based on lift usage at all. I mean, you can use the lifts for free in any of their resorts, having paid the up front amount. So that's a massive early season capital injection for them... and then ongoing profits from the lock in which means you use their accommodation and food service. That model has been turned around about as far as you can get from "lift usage".
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So it's a multi-resort season pass?
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pam w wrote:
So it's a multi-resort season pass?
Yes but priced aggressively with a low breakeven point (vs day tickets). This enables them to artificially inflate day tickets which then make the season pass look great value (as little as 3 days might pass breakeven) or catches the unwary in an extremely high margin trap. The point is converting more of the skiing population (including those far from local) to annual passes (=guaranteed cashflow) and locking in their future travel.
Can see that as weekly passes increase in Europe there may be more of a trend to make them quasi season passes for not much more if they can target the right people (a bit like the Theme parks where it is only a small uplift for an annual pass over the full day ticket : they know people like the idea of the deal but the reality is few who aren't immediately local will use those extra visits)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Le Semnoz near Annecy has another unusual one. 2 hour lift pass = €11, then €1 for each additional hour up to €16 for a full day (or 7 hours). Subtract €3 for under-16s. Usefully flexible!
(Also a good example of how small French ski areas are much cheaper then their equivalents in much of the rest of the Alps.)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Whistler a bargain C$300 + tax for day tix peak season this year. No shame from the VR comms guy either.
It covers several resorts and keeps a track of where you've been and when and applies the cheapest tariff that covers your travels each day. For example, it knows the difference between Courchevel local lifts and the full 3-Valleys.
It's great if you want a day off or a day to go touring 'cos you've not wasted money on a weekly pass that you're not using.
Yes we like a similar scheme through skiogrande.com…allows us to ski where we choose out of 17 resorts at discounted daily prices and a free day every 8. Any bad weather days or we are just knackered and fancy a day off means we don’t lose out on part of a weekly pass.
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Les Arcs and La Plagne have had a huge array of obscure passes available for a quite a few years now. 1600 only 1600+1800, 3/4/5hr, Coolski, Samedi ski etc, meaning that you have been able to ski, with some limitations for €30-40 ish or so a day, sometimes having to jump through some hoops.
The cheaper passes this year have always been available to tour operators but I guess quite often discount not passed on to punters, cutting out the middle man is probably a smart move for Les Arcs, makes them look better and will probably encourage more to book accom direct with them as well. Sunweb often sell a weeks holiday in including 6 day pass for less than the cost of the 6 day pass so they must get passes for nothing or very close to nothing I would have thought.
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Quote:
Well not bizarre exactly, but it's a business model which isn't based on lift usage at all. I mean, you can use the lifts for free in any of their resorts, having paid the up front amount. So that's a massive early season capital injection for them... and then ongoing profits from the lock in which means you use their accommodation and food service. That model has been turned around about as far as you can get from "lift usage".
Do they charge the accommodation providers, restaurants, bars etc a fee. How does that work?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
There was me thinking someone else had a Swatch Access watch-based skipass! I never got to use mine as it was intended.
You subscribe to it - if you expect to ski in one or more of the umpteen covered Pyrenean ski resorts in the coming season.
There's an annual fee, but a discount on lift passes is obtained - with bonus free days accruing if you ski a certain amount.
You break even if you ski 3 days a season. If you ski more than 3, then it's cheaper than buying day lift passes.[url=][/url]
The subscription commitment to the following season occurs around May. The subscription payment occurs around October. The charges for days skied are collected and charged about 2 weeks later.
However, from experience, if you break your leg in September, they really, really don't want to let you off the hook...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Crosbie, that looks excellent! Makes a multi-resort trip to the Pyrenees much more tempting.
@denfinella, yup, even UK based friends of mine have realised it's worth it just for a weeks' visit. In some Pyrenean ski stations you can ski from the car park down to a chair or drag lift, and thus avoid the queues in the ski station centre. Already being in possession of an N'Py card from the get go makes this possible.
I must admit, for the very first encounter with a ski pass barrier at the start of a season, it can sometimes take 30 seconds or so for the system to recognise your pass. Every encounter thereafter that season, you are recognised immediately.
The downside is that non-participating resorts then appear a tad more expensive, e.g. St.Lary, Superbagnères, or Le Mourtis.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Are one up tickets a thing in Europe or USA? I use them a fair bit here, $10 - $20 for a quick bump to the top on the rope tow, throw skins on, head off touring.
Way cheaper than a one up on a heli, which cost me $3k a few weeks ago
After all it is free
After all it is free
johnE wrote:
Quote:
Well not bizarre exactly, but it's a business model which isn't based on lift usage at all. I mean, you can use the lifts for free in any of their resorts, having paid the up front amount. So that's a massive early season capital injection for them... and then ongoing profits from the lock in which means you use their accommodation and food service. That model has been turned around about as far as you can get from "lift usage".
Do they charge the accommodation providers, restaurants, bars etc a fee. How does that work?
I believe Epic own all the restaurants and bars on their mountains, and many of the hotels in 'their' villages.
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@azza2110, correct.
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@hang11, randonneur passes are usually available when appropriate.
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