Morning all. Just wondering which resorts are more Italian in feel and which resorts are more Austrian? We went to Selva last year and loved it so planning to go again to the dolomites but would like to try a more Italian feel. Any pointers much appreciated. Thank you.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Selva is S.Tirol
a mix of AUT und IT. I think they are more AUT as IT, except the food, wine and espresso
if you want more IT , then you have to go a little bit more south...
Try the dolomiti resorts in Trentino e.g. Canazei ?... or for more IT feeling in the Dolomites in Venedig Area (e.g. Alleghe)
Generally speaking i think they are also cheaper as selva.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Or drive a bit to the West, Madonna di Campiglio in the Brenta Dolomites.
With Marileva and Folgarida.
Totally Italian.
The resorts that are in Veneto rather than South Tyrol will be more Italian in feel – Arabba, Cortina d'Ampezzo, Alleghe, for example. Trentino is also more Italian than its norther neighbour – here you have San Pellegrino, Canazei and Val di Fassa, Cavalese etc. Search the region on a map and it will show you where the border lies.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The border between Austria and Italy wiggled abouta bit and these days is more easily identified by the presence of trenches and barbed wire on the ground. Yes they’re still there.
Simply put everything north of the falzerago pass was Austrian ( though not cortina) and south Italian (though not the adige valley south to lake Garda, including towns such as Bozen and Trent they were Austrian)
The League of Nations tried to preserve the culture and language of the German speakers, but this was severely curtailed during the 20’s and 30’s leading to many towns becoming bilingual and the renaming of some places.
This seems to intensified in recent years. When I first went to the dolomites in the 1970’s many places were referred to by their German names, now they have become referred to by their italian names, for example Gröden has now became Gardena and Wolkentstein is referred to as Selva di Gardena by many people on this forum. (As opposed to Selva di Cadore, another Selva)
So back to the original question; to choose a non Austrian influenced resort go to the south of the border, somewhere like Alleghe, or other resorts in the Civetta range, or look carefully at the map and check it doesn’t have an alternative name.
@johnE, I'm not sure it's anything other than marketing in English-speaking countries. German names are still used among German speakers, but may be harder to pronounce/sound less attractive to native English speakers than the Italian names.
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@Scarlet, The signpost have changed as well. In the 70's Wolkenstein was the prominent name with Selva di Gardena in small print if at all. Now it's the other way around.
After all it is free
After all it is free
All the German colleagues I know call it Wolkenstein.
I guess there is a slight tendency for the Veneto villages being more Italian compared to the Süd Tirol villages. Maybe Cortina, Alleghe, San Pellegrino etc. are more Italian?
On the Sella Ronda it is slightly moot anyway, since if you do stay in one that might be a little more Italian, then once you go out skiing for the day then you'll be skiing in to an area with a slightly more Austrian feel. So it's then down to which Rifugios you stop at for lunch. Some are pizza/pasta, and others schnitzel, regardless of which village you stay in or ski to.
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Quote:
Maybe Cortina, Alleghe, San Pellegrino etc. are more Italian?
Probably beacause they were all in Italy at the start of WWI, whereas the likes of Arraba were in the Austrian side.
Cortina always interests me because on some maps it is Austria and others Italy. IIRC the railway line from Cortina to Toblach is one guage and the one to Pieve di Cadore is another. I think one was Austrian and one Italian. The word Cortina means a "curtain" and is Italian. However only a short distance noth of Cortina we get to the Drei Zinnen, which is Austrian.
Having stumbled across lots of barbed wire, trenches, remains of tin cans etc in the Dolomites I have perhaps an unhealth interest in the "white war" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_War
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@johnE, Cortina was part of Austria Hungary prior to 1918 and was often known by its Ladin name Ampez. I believe some of the other districts with a significant Ladin speaking population now in the Veneto such as Arraba were also in Austria Hungary but might be wrong about that. Cortina had been part of the Veneto for some of its history and part of the Habsburg Empire for other parts, so probably less "Tirolean" than say Bruneck. Over the later part of the 20th Century there was a certain resurgence of Ladin and Ladin culture so somewhere like Wolkenstein which has a majority Ladin speaking population would be more widely known by its Ladin name Selva (which is the same in this case as the Italian) rather than the German name. Ladin speakers were often marginalised under the Habsburgs (and also under Mussolini) so place names were often German or Italian not the name used by the local inhabitants. There does seem a tendency for English speakers to use the Italian version of the names whatever the local practice eg Merano when practically all the locals would use Meran
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Thank you so much for all your replies. Really really helpful. Now its time to get lost in piste maps and openskimap.org
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
munich_irish wrote:
@johnE, Cortina was part of Austria Hungary prior to 1918 and was often known by its Ladin name Ampez. I believe some of the other districts with a significant Ladin speaking population now in the Veneto such as Arraba were also in Austria Hungary but might be wrong about that. Cortina had been part of the Veneto for some of its history and part of the Habsburg Empire for other parts, so probably less "Tirolean" than say Bruneck. Over the later part of the 20th Century there was a certain resurgence of Ladin and Ladin culture so somewhere like Wolkenstein which has a majority Ladin speaking population would be more widely known by its Ladin name Selva (which is the same in this case as the Italian) rather than the German name. Ladin speakers were often marginalised under the Habsburgs (and also under Mussolini) so place names were often German or Italian not the name used by the local inhabitants. There does seem a tendency for English speakers to use the Italian version of the names whatever the local practice eg Merano when practically all the locals would use Meran
Yes, it's a complex and fascinating history in the Dolomites with overlapping Germanic and Italian language & culture with the Ladin speakers in the high valleys into the mix too, hence some places having 3 different names.
South Tyrol (the current province of Bolzano) has been in the Germanic sphere for centuries, firstly under the Bishop-Princes of Brixen, then in the County of Tyrol, then under the Habsburg monarchy of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Ladins of Val Gardena and Val Badia are small remnant pockets of a wider Rhaeto-Romanic culture, they maintained their own Latin-based language due to their isolation in inaccessible high valleys, but the food and culture was later heavily influenced by the Tyrolean traditions that encroached along with immigration from the north in the early middle ages. Areas close to the Austrian border, such as Pustertal (Val Pusteria) and the Vinschgau (Val Venosta) are still firmly German-speaking (or the local dialect thereof). The towns of Bozen (Bolzano) & to a lesser extent, Meran (Merano), had significant immigration from other parts of Italy since WW1 which has made them more Italian and bilingual.
Most of the Trentino was also part of Austria until WW1, it was known as Welschtirol (Welsch is a germanic word for non-germanic speakers, cognate with the word Welsh in English). It has Tyrolean traditions, but was never German-speaking except for a few pockets. Val di Fassa is another Ladin-speaking high valley in the Trentino. Interestingly, the Austrians maintained a small naval fleet based in Riva on Lake Garda as they controlled the northern part of the lake. Val Rendena and Val di Sole (where Madonna di Campiglio and its linked resorts are located were also part of Tyrolean Trentino)
A 1788 map of the County of Tyrol incorporating the Bishoprics of Brixen and Trent shows the extent of the enduring Tyrolean/Austrian influence in this region:
From the map you will note that although now incorporated into the current Veneto, the Fodom/Livinallongo valley where Arabba (Buchenstein) is located and the Ampezzo basin where Cortina (Hayden) is located were also Tyrolean/Austrian until WW1. The native languages here are also dialects of Ladin. Nowadays, the locals are generally bilingual with Italian and many people from other parts of Italy have settled or maintain holiday homes there. The Ampezzans still maintain many Tyrolean traditions like the 'Schutzen' civil defence groupings.
The rest of the Veneto was also briefly ruled by Austria after the defeat of Napoleon from the the Congress of Vienna in 1815 until 1866 when it joined Italian Republic.
So nowhere in the Dolomites has a history completely without Austrian rule at some point, but the areas of the Veneto which have been part of Italy since 1866 will currently be the most 'Italian', so maybe Falcade, Alleghe, Val Fiorentina and Val di Zoldo in the SE quadrant of the Dolomites, if you are looking at ski destinations.
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Yes, lots of First World War stuff at Cinque Torri (trenches and gun emplacements) and Lagazuoi and even a museum by the end of the dam below Marmolada.
This was near Cortina I found on a summer walk;
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Facing the Cinque Torri is Hexenstein, a dramatic looking peak that was the Austrian positions. The easy footpath up to the summit is basically a line of trenches. The other side of the Valparola pass road at the foot of the Lagazuoi there are the remains of the more fortifications with tunnels, trenches barbed wire etc. The Kaiserjäger path is part of the network of via ferrata that were used to move between these fortified positions and starts at the Valparola pass
The remains of the Valparola fort also houses a museum (which I've never been in!). This fort was the front line of the Austrian defences at the start of the war but was blown up almost at the start of hostilities.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
There is an excellent book on this topic called White War by Mark Thompson. I read it last year whilst in Alleghe on the PBBWUW and it gave me a new perspective on the area, particularly Cinque Torri and Marmolada.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Anybody know of something along the lines of a Ladin phrasebook? The web doesn't betray much, and the tourism office in "San Ciascian" has a one-page cheat-sheet, pretty limited. One day the liftie handed me the poma and I said "giulan" and he lit up like a Christmas tree, made me want to know a bit more.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@luigi, @luigi, You are using the phrase "Tyrolean/Austrian influence in the region"
I think that wording is not really accurate. South Tyrol in fact is the core, the heartland of the original, larger Tyrol: The village (!) of Tirol, and Tirol-Castle, the home of the Counts of Tirol is located in South-Tyrol, near Meran.
Later the title of Counts of Tirol was acquired by the Habsburgers themselves
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
As a rule of thumb and in my experience, the Val Gardena valley leans more towards the Ladin/Austrian, likewise Alta Badia. Val Di Fassa and beyond have a slightly more Italian bounce about them. Re. learning a bit of Ladin. There are distinct dialect changes across the valleys, so have fun with that.
I remember staying in a chalet in Cervinia a few years back, where the lovely english manager had previously spent 4 years working in La Villa. From my perspective, she was butchering the pronunciation of place names around Selva. She accused me of doing the same until the penny dropped. She was using the La Villa/Alta Badia dialect and I'd only ever heard/used the local Selva dialect.
@Scooter in Seattle, From what little I understand "Ladin" is somewhat of a misnomer as there are different versions / dialects in each of the valleys, so a phrase book might be challenging though I believe there has been some attempts to define a standardised version (much like Hochdeutsch is a standardised version of the language spoken by those who might fall under the umbrella term "Germans"). There is also a debate as to whether Friulian (language spoken in Friuli which is the area south east of the Dolomites and to the west of (what is now) Slovenia) is a "Ladin" language or part of the wider group of Rhaeto-Romance languages.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@munich_irish, thanks and yeah I knew about the various dialects. I think I'll corner my hotelier in March and see what he thinks. I was hoping, perhaps foolishly, that basic skiing-context stuff like north/south or left/right might be uniform or thereabouts.
@Scooter in Seattle, Stick with 'holiday' Italian. That's what I've always done and it's done me fine.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The traditional Christmas tree for Vienna's Rathausplatz this year comes from Süd-Tirol.
Check the subtle message in the picture "Tradition unites.....South Tyrol greats Vienna" https://wien.orf.at/stories/3229557/
After all it is free
After all it is free
In my admittedly limited experience of the Dolomite towns around and just off the Sellaronda circuit, being able to speak Ladin is not necessary and neither is Italian or Austrian for that matter. As @Mollerski, says, holiday Italian and English will be enough.
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Scooter in Seattle wrote:
One day the liftie handed me the poma and I said "giulan" and he lit up like a Christmas tree
While holiday Italian and English will get you by, it would be nice to at least be able to say thank you.
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NeddySkiGoon wrote:
Scooter in Seattle wrote:
One day the liftie handed me the poma and I said "giulan" and he lit up like a Christmas tree
While holiday Italian and English will get you by, it would be nice to at least be able to say thank you.
In the Kronplatz / San Vigilio area it is pronounced “YOLAN” and where I have seen it written it has been “Jolan”
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@halfhand, In most of Süd-Tirol you will get (much) more sympathy if you try holiday-German rather than holiday Italian! The majority of the South-Tyroleans still would prefer to be Austrian.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Langerzug, Personally, I don't have any holiday german. I've become pretty friendly with a few Val Gardena residents over the years and yes I agree, german is definitely next after Ladin with Italian a shaky third. However, my dodgy Italian is generally received well and I feel it's preferable to the lameness of sticking with english and not trying at all.
I was once told by true Italian, from the west of the Trentino region, that the Sud Tyrol locals completely butcher Italian. The strong germanic accent doesn't work so well with the rolling rhythmic beauty of spoken Italian.
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Poster: A snowHead
I've become pretty friendly with a few Val Gardena residents over the years and yes I agree, german is definitely next after Ladin with Italian a shaky third. However, my dodgy Italian is generally received well and I feel it's preferable to the lameness of sticking with english and not trying at all.
