I like to flex my ankles and rest a fair proportion of my weight on the front of the boots when skiing on piste because I like the feeling of control it gives.
Is there a downside to this and are there any benefits to skiing with less ankle flex?
I weigh 75kg and am about 175cm tall. I tend to prefer to ski smoothly rather than aggressively. I my current boots have a flex of about 110.
I'll ask the next instructor I ski with but that's a while off so I thought I'd ask here.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Speaking as someone who isn't an Instructor, there could be a "problem" (of a more advanced nature).
"Resting" your knees on the front of your boots will likely have your weight on the balls of your feet. The result will be to pressure the front of the skis, but leave the backs of the skis light.
This is not a problem at the start of the turn - in fact it's advisable/helpful, as it gets the tips to "bite" which pulls you into the turn....but....as you get towards the end of the turn, it can leave the tails a bit light, which can see them "washing out".
Ideally, your weight should travel along your feet as the turn progresses. Depending on your level, these videos may help:
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks makes sense thanks, in the past I have tended to avoid the tails biting because of the feeling of being back seat. I'll have a go at trying to vary my balance to improve the end of my turns.
Thanks makes sense thanks, in the past I have tended to avoid the tails biting because of the feeling of being back seat. I'll have a go at trying to vary my balance to improve the end of my turns.
As always - it's best done via an Instructor.
What I will say, is that it is much quicker and more effective to move your feet back and forth, by sucking them back or letting them slide forwards, than moving the whole body back and forth - explained here (as it applies to moguls, but it's the same thing):
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 24-05-23 18:59; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Henwc wrote:
Thanks makes sense thanks, in the past I have tended to avoid the tails biting because of the feeling of being back seat. I'll have a go at trying to vary my balance to improve the end of my turns.
I spent some time training this year, and in particular in my short turns, I now feel as though I have pressure going through my heel at the end of the turn. Shins pressing the tongue of the boot at the start of the turn, then feeling my heel at the end.
You might feel like you get pinged out the turn through the forces if you over do it, but it's a case of experimenting and playing with it to perfect it.
Most people don't flex their ankles anywhere near enough. It's a curse.
Don't worry about it. You can always weight back a bit if you have to but you're starting in a good place.
If you are flattening your boots at any point, they're too soft, otherwise they are fine for you.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Klamm Franzer wrote:
Most people don't flex their ankles anywhere near enough. It's a curse.
Agree with that so much. You can see it from the chair lifts all the time
After all it is free
After all it is free
That Tom Gellie guy is a bit good, I had to watch his video a few times to understand exactly what he is trying to get over.
I can't get much flexion out of my left ankle so I have to bluff it quite a lot.
I've been particularly working last season on feeling my foot action, not so much fore and aft but rolling around the whole souls of my feet.
i.e. Little Toe across to Big Toe and back via the Arch (I do this at every occasion when I should be standing still)
This is instead of cranking my knees over, which was my focus in previous seasons.
I dont know if it is improving my skiing, but I feel that I'm steering my feet around more rather than just balancing on them.
If any of that makes sense? I find it hard to put into words.
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Thanks all, the main thing I'll take away from this is that when I feel the tails gripping more than the tips at the end of my short turns it's a good thing, tbh I tend to fight against it so if I stop fighting it should come in without too much effort
Also should I be varying my fore-aft balance during long carved turns? I assume the answer is a bit but not that much
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DrLawn wrote:
That Tom Gellie guy is a bit good, I had to watch his video a few times to understand exactly what he is trying to get over.
I can't get much flexion out of my left ankle so I have to bluff it quite a lot.
I've been particularly working last season on feeling my foot action, not so much fore and aft but rolling around the whole souls of my feet.
i.e. Little Toe across to Big Toe and back via the Arch (I do this at every occasion when I should be standing still)
This is instead of cranking my knees over, which was my focus in previous seasons.
I dont know if it is improving my skiing, but I feel that I'm steering my feet around more rather than just balancing on them.
If any of that makes sense? I find it hard to put into words.
I think Deb Armstrong calls it "Stroking the Ski" - which is a good description....and also talks a lot about BTE/LTE and the benefit of steering the skis.
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Henwc wrote:
Also should I be varying my fore-aft balance during long carved turns? I assume the answer is a bit but not that much
In my (unprofessional) view - a similar thing should happen in Long Turns - but it doesn't have to happen as quickly and is thus not as pronounced.
As was said above, in Short Turns, due to the fast rhythm and pressuring the tails - you can get pinged out of the turn. You have to be prepared for this and retract the skis very quickly back underneath you - or you will be left behind and thrown off balance as you enter the next turn.
It is well worth experimenting with this - preferably under the watchful eye of a Professional. A lot may depend on your speed, the steepness of the slope and how icy it is. It all begins with becoming more aware of the sensations that you feel on the soles of your feet. Where do you feel the pressure and at what part of the turn? ie. The pad under your big toe (or little toe on the u/hill ski) -> Arch -> Front of the heel. It is subtle and shouldn't be overdone.
If you get it right, you should really feel the skis working as the they were designed to do ie. initially pulling you into the turn, using their shape to "cut" a turn, while feeling very grippy and making turn to turn more effortless.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Talking of Tom Gellie, I listened to his podcast last night about binding delta angle. Tom's podcast is excellent for any one into the technical aspects of skiing.
Fascinating stuff and something I hadn't considered when swapping between skis and it can effect ankle flexion and balance. Particularly if you have small feet and hence a larger delta angle.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@NoMapNoCompass, I watched it recently - and it's a complete minefield. I think most people only get it right by chance - unless they do a complete alignment (which is a tiny percentage of skiers).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Henwc wrote:
Also should I be varying my fore-aft balance during long carved turns? I assume the answer is a bit but not that much
Agree with @Old Fartbag on this, yes you should be doing it in long turns and that it's a much more gradual change from fore to aft. Again it's something you need to play around with.
If you can get some decent footage of yourself skiing, that'll really aid you, as you'll be able to see if you're engaging your tails or not.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
When I first switched from skis with full camber, full side cut and plenty of shape to the tails to ones with very straight, flat tails I found my tails were washing out crazily at the end of the turn. Much head scratching!
Essentially the amount that you can allow your weight to move over the tails at the end of the turn depends on the ski design - it's quite different between for example a true slalom ski and free ride ski built to be able pivot and drift easily.
Once you realise what's going on it is quite a fun challenge to tweak your movement to the different designs and styles of skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
jedster wrote:
When I first switched from skis with full camber, full side cut and plenty of shape to the tails to ones with very straight, flat tails I found my tails were washing out crazily at the end of the turn. Much head scratching!
Essentially the amount that you can allow your weight to move over the tails at the end of the turn depends on the ski design - it's quite different between for example a true slalom ski and free ride ski built to be able pivot and drift easily.
Once you realise what's going on it is quite a fun challenge to tweak your movement to the different designs and styles of skiing.
It's a good point....and I certainly find it's a similar thing when it comes to getting the Tips to engage as effectively, on skis with a Front Rocker. Scott The Ski (unsurprisingly) behaves differently in this respect, to Dynastar SZ 12
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I don't normally look at the Bend ze Knees section and it is many decades since I had a ski lesson, so reading this has been very interesting. I am not sure how much the fore-aft movement applies outside racing (where I can intuitively see it makes some sense). For example for me. I am almost entirely an off-piste skier and doing connecting bits on piste now and then. On my off piste, semi-fat skis I find I can carve on most red runs and anything with softer snow but when it gets a bit icy and steep I am mostly skidding or sometimes juddering (catching and releasing). It would be interesting to try a slalom or giant slalom ski like I used to use 30 or 40 years ago (only now it would be quite different!) to see if I could carve more consistently. And even have a lesson or two. The trouble is we hire a guide for a week each holiday so I don't know when I could fit it in.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@snowball, Pressuring the tips and putting most of the weight on the D/Hill ski, when Off Piste, would not go well!
I think you would find it interesting to hire some Piste/Slalom/GS skis and have a lesson - because, as you say, things have changed since the introduction of shaped skis.
Carving on steep icy Pistes is the preserve of the very best.
@snowball, "juddering" can be inadequate edge angle (and thus too much pressure). As you are mostly hors piste, it's easy to get into teh habit of not applying enough edge angle. An exercise that might help is to keep your "outside" pole on the snow as you go round.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Incidentally (I am not sure if this should be a new thread), as an off piste skier I find I like more cant on my boots than most seem to provide, so in my current boots I often stuff something between the shell and the lining behind my ankle. This is particularly useful when skiing quick changes of direction in deep snow between more densely packed trees. I can have my knees more bent for quick direction changes while keeping my weight centred. I don't know if anyone else finds this.
@snowball, (lean not cant) - oddly enough, the stock liners in the Tecnica 0G (for me) were too upright. I'm much happier with more of a race boot forward lean. For exactly that reason.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@under a new name, OK, I used the wrong word. I thought it was forward cant.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@snowball, Without seeing you ski, it's impossible to judge, but yes, there is a downside to having the weight too far forward. It's much less common (than leaning back) but it can affect your ability to do nice controlled turns as the back of the ski isn't sufficiently pressured and can wash out in the latter phase of the turn. Ideally your weight wants to be balanced above the centre of the ski most of the time.
Off-piste technique can generally be much improved by learning better on-piste technique, although of course there are additional factors in deep snow, breakable crust and other variable conditions. But fundamentally the same basic rules still apply, and we often find that improving someone's off-piste skiing is most easily done by working on problem areas on piste before trying to apply them in more difficult conditions.
Juddering is generally a result of insufficient lateral separation, resulting in much reduced edge angles. Ideally the upper body should be much more upright than the lower half, so the legs are extended outwards more parallel with the snow surface, allowing the edges to really grip into the snow. You can see this in some of the videos already linked, even if that's not the point they're trying to make.
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snowball wrote:
... I am not sure how much the fore-aft movement applies outside racing (where I can intuitively see it makes some sense). For example for me. I am almost entirely an off-piste skier and doing connecting bits on piste now and then. On my off piste ... when it gets a bit icy and steep I am mostly skidding or sometimes juddering (catching and releasing). It would be interesting to try a slalom or giant slalom ski like I used to use 30 or 40 years ago (only now it would be quite different!) to see if I could carve more consistently. ..
I'm a snowboarder, and the fore-aft thing is very definitively a general technique, not confined to race snowboards at least. The amount used depends on the design of the board [ski]. You automatically adjust, based on the feel. Typically snowboard sidecuts are different front to back. The sidecut changes through the length, and that works with the weight shift.
Skidding etc... well you'd have to post a video, but I doubt that's related to weight shift specifically. I did ski on old slalom (j-turn) skis, but I can't remember if the same technique worked on those. That said, the whole deal was different then, and those weren't designed for round carved turns.
I think that the piste is the best place to learn back-country skills. I mean: if your basic technique isn't good, then you'll find off piste hard. Piste skiers with good technique just ski bottomless powder, adjusting immediately. The ones with weak basic technique (poor stance, back seat riders...) get taken apart quickly. Off piste conditions can show up faults which people are able to hide on piste.
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@Chaletbeauroc, or upper body in some respects angulated downhill.
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@under a new name, Struggling to make much sense of that, TBH. There may be a crossover point where you try to project the body over the skis towards the fall line, depending on what sort of turn you're making, but it's not really about angulation. Indeed, the crossover/under is where the body and legs would be in line with each other, in a lateral sense, the most extreme angulation being when the skis are furthest away (laterally) from the body at the mid point of the turn.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Chaletbeauroc, I’m reasonably sure I’ve had my torso pointing a bit downhill, although maybe in combo with a bit of anticipation/pre-rotation
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@under a new name, sounds painful
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think there is a misapprehension: I am not having any problems off-piste were I am fairly expert. However, since I hardly ever ski pistes, except to make a connection (usually travelling very fast), I almost never get to practice carving properly on steep, very hard pistes and never on piste skis. I think my last proper lesson was about 63 years ago, so I effectively taught myself carving.
My question was about the subject of the thread: varying from slight forward weight at the start of the turn to more backward at the end and whether this was mostly for racers or aided all piste skiing.
photo by markymark
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
under a new name wrote:
@snowball, "juddering" can be inadequate edge angle (and thus too much pressure). As you are mostly hors piste, it's easy to get into teh habit of not applying enough edge angle. An exercise that might help is to keep your "outside" pole on the snow as you go round.
Did you just mean keeping it touching the snow (ie keeping the hand down, and therefore the upper body more vertical)?
I'll have to see if I can have an extra day at the start of a holiday to have a lesson. Perhaps a race lesson? I have only been down between poles a handful of times in my life when I did the race bit of the Ski Club of GB gold test about 30 years ago (failed the first time, and then didn't really deserve it the second time, the only section I had problems with, except perhaps the moguls, which I had to practice for a day or two before the test and scraped through). A shame they gave up the Gold test which took 4 days, in effect (piste including moguls, powder, variable snow including breakable crust, and race).
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Poster: A snowHead
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@snowball, What a good photo - and to my eye, you look really well balanced.
You have the opposite problem to most people, who go from mostly Piste skiing, to trying Off Piste. They suddenly find balance is more difficult, can't turn as quickly or easily, so have to be more patient and have to ski more 2 footed and have to change edges at the same time and by the same amount....and control by finishing the turn (rather than skidding).
I suspect you have to go in the other direction - as in Early weight transfer; Balancing on the outside ski; Getting tip pressure at the top of the turn; Getting forward and across in Longer Turns; Having more of a C-Shape; Allowing your weight to travel along your feet through the turn, to stop the tails washing out.
IMV. (Which could be wrong) - A lot of the basics are the same, but adaptions should to be made for control "On top" of the snow, rather than "In" the snow (where the snow itself acts as a brake).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
You are probably right. It is very easy to carve in soft (or nice, grippy) snow, since the snow helps to hold you in the tramline. I don't like rockers which encourage skidding (I have Head Kore skis with Shift bindings).
But you have to be really accurate (and forceful and confident) in breakable crust, which I find more challenging now I am getting older. Very heavy snow, though, I rather like.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
NoMapNoCompass wrote:
Talking of Tom Gellie, I listened to his podcast last night about binding delta angle. Tom's podcast is excellent for any one into the technical aspects of skiing.
Fascinating stuff and something I hadn't considered when swapping between skis and it can effect ankle flexion and balance. Particularly if you have small feet and hence a larger delta angle.
didnt listen to all of the 25 minutes as too long but the key take away in the summary is both Lou and Tom set all their skis to a flat delta... Pretty much like every other person who has played with Delta angles. If I have advanced or expert clients always in the back seat I recommend looking at delta on their skis and if over 4-6mm try to get em shimmed to flat. Never does any harm and most times is a huge benefit.
Only problem is that for lots of mid range skis have integrated rail bindings and shimming those can be problematic. If they aren't easily shimmed then the clients get all worried about their gear and forgets about technique
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