Cairngorm says Coire na Ciste chairlift is "obsolete"

A snowHead

The operators of Cairngorm ski area - Aviemore's mountain - have conceded that the two-stage Coire na Ciste chairlift is now "obsolete". The lift was built in the early 1970s and accesses the most challenging piste terrain on the mountain - the 'West Wall' - along with the gun barrel-style Coire na Ciste gulley.

In notes attached to a customer feedback survey published on its website, Cairngorm Mountain state:

A snowHead

I have never skied there but if they decommission the lifts and stops access to the most challenging part on the mountain wont that reduce the numbers on the slopes even more so ?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Chris, you don't have to use that chair to access the West Wall etc. - there are surface lifts, including the West Wall Poma.

Cairngorm's lift and piste map. [zoom button bottom right]

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Thanks David.

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I thought they had a fire down in the base station of that chairlift and all the electrics were shot?
Perhaps the cost of repairing is prohibitive due to the financial situation they have to run under.
When I was there last winter when that area probably had good cover it was either closed due to avalanche risk or the lift just was not running due to lack of demand midweek.

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The avalanche risk is controllable, and has always been controllable. Lack of demand has become a chicken/egg situation, but in understanding of the management of the mountain ...

In the winters I primarily skied Cairngorm - 1974-7 - there was lots of demand and snow, and use of the lift. Cairngorm's primary problem has been the extraordinary unreliability of snowcover over the past 15 years. It's almost impossible to see how things can improve unless the climate re-changes.

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David Goldsmith, and when was the snow holding ever reliable? I learned/skied in Cairngorm 1970-1987 and the ability to hold on to the snow was/is always very variable. Had some great days (e.g. BUSC 1985 IIRC) and some dreadful ones...

AFAIK, the problrm isn't snowfall but wind. It snows plenty well, but then all blows off.

Regarding the chairlift? It seemed obsolete in 1987 never mind today. If you can still access the skiing - which it seems you can - then what's all the fuss about? OK, I admit we used to used the Ciste carpark and lift because the main one was busy, but isn't it always busy up there when it's open?

After all it is free

David, I think if you look at the records between 1961 (when the first lifts were installed) and the late 1980s Cairngorm enjoyed many many long winters with great snowcover that survived wash-outs. I was hired as a ski instructor in early December 1974 and skied through to mid-May that year. This wasn't unusual. The past 15 years have been exceptionally poor. The lift system was built and expanded for 20 years from profitable winters.

The fuss is really about the declining appeal of the lift system, relative to the standards people are getting used to in the Alps. At one time T-bars and Pomas were the predominant lifts in most resorts. The irony, of course, is that the £20 million Cairngorm funicular could have been at least 5 quad detachable chairlifts (I think - not certain of pricing) but this technical solution was determined to be the only acceptable one in replacing the Car Park-White Lady chairlifts.

The advantages of the funiclular to Cairngorm mountain are that it runs in a lot windier conditions than most chairs would run at. Last couple of years the funicular has been running in conditions when the top bowl was virtually unskiiable due to the wind strength. Its is/was thought tat the funicular would be a more popular attraction for none skiers particularly in the summer and would bring in more none skier money.

I think getting rid of the ciste and west wall chairs are a mistake and cairngorm should look to make better use of them. I'm not sure whether it would be possible to replace them with more modern equipment, perhaps keeping the present towers and chairs, but replacing the guts of the machinery. Two new chairs would be nice, but I'm sure the cost would be prohibitive for Cairngorm. Perhaps they could at least canibilise the ciste chair to keep the west wall chair going as this would be usefull to back up the WW poma on busy days.

Cairngorm have not been making proper use of the ciste and WW chairs for several years. When Cairngorm is busy (and it can still be busy) the funicular can't cope with the number of people and you get big queues particular first thing in the morning. This is not so bad if the Faical Ridge poma and Car park T-bar are running, but if the snow is not good enough to run these or they are broken it can be a real pain. The ciste and WW chairs give an alternative route to the top for experienced skiers. The off ramps are matted so snow cover isn't required and Alan on winter highland suggests little work would be needed so they could load for taking you down aswell. If Cairngorm had been willing to do this pressure would have been taken off the funicular on busy weekends allowing it to be used for less experienced skiers and non skiing tourists and providing an allround better customer experience.

The Ciste gulley was never open when I was there this year supposedly because of avalanche risk, but I'm not so sure.

Cairngorm say they are to make some welcome changes next (coming) year. They plan to speed up the carpark T bar which will help the morning queues if there is a enough snow to run it. Also the daylodge poma will be maintained and runnable so if there is enough snow again (this year when it wasn't runnable the run had the best snow cover it had had for several years and was a really nice run) it will provide a quick route to the WW poma. There should also be two new beginner tows in the Ptarmigan bowl if the EU cable directive and HSE/government interpretation of said directive doesn't screw us up!

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I had a really good look at the website and the current piste maps. I suppose that with fewer skiers and bigger car parks at the day lodge, the Ciste car park is no longer really needed, and consequently neither is the ciste chair most of the time. I do think it's a big shame to get rid of any sort of lift from that side though. I know it hasn't been possible to ski down to the bottom of the Ciste very often recently, but it's a really nice run! In addition I noticed that Corrie Laogh Mor is now in a protected zone - does this mean it's out of bounds in good conditions? That was always my favourite run.

I can understand their problems with costs and so on, but I wouldn't have thought reducing the service to the loyal skiers there was a practical long term option.

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Come on people I think we have to face reality here, the ciste and west wall chairs are really old and hardly ever used. In fact I can’t remember the last time I was on them. Ok so they do help move people up the mountain in busy periods but as an engineer I know as a fact that everything has a life span, it’s just a sad fact of life that these chairlifts are done. The cost of replacing them would be extortionate and a complete waste of time when the money could be spend else where.

I for one would like to see them make better use of the area above the Fiacill T-bar. They built a boarder cross up there about four or five years ago. An extension of the current t-bar further up the hill would be great.

brian

easiski, they still use the Ciste car park when it's busy but you have to get a shuttle bus round to wait in the funicular queue !

David Goldsmith, the problem is not so much snow reliability as snow accessibility. In the 80s, the lower car park used to be full of coaches every weekend bringing skiers from the South. These days they hop on an easyjet to the alps, and who can blame them ?

Cairngorm suffers disproportionately to the other Scottish centres because Strathspey is more of a holiday base. Glenshee and Glencoe have always catered more to the Scottish daytrip market. The funicular wasn't really built as a ski lift, it's an attempt to make the place a year round attraction. Arguably that's their main focus these days. It's put them massively in debt, hence the "core lift" policy that's seen them more or less abandon everything except the Funicular, WW poma, Lady, Cas, Ciste and Ptarmigan t-bars.

David Goldsmith, interesting. I haven't skied in Scotland since a particularly memorable day in Glenshee in 1998 (blue skies, 10cm of powder) but I will absolutely take your word on snow conditions.

You know it makes sense.

brian, Sounds grim! Sad

I do sympathise with the Cairngorm management, and they have (or had) Bob Kinnaird who's great, but the best ski-ing was always on the Ciste side (including the Aonach), so it's a pity to hear that it's more or less finito. Crying or Very sad

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

macphee70,

Of course the Ciste and WW chairs are never used - they are never open! You have a chicken and egg situation. Though I do sympathise with the Cairngorm as they are/were in a difficult financial situation. The debt from building the funicular has been combined with a couple of poor snow years. Also they had two good snow years one coincided with foot and mouth which reduced skier numbers and one coincided with starting building the funicular which was poorly managed as AFAIR they closed early to remove the lady and car park chairs when there was plenty of snow. It would have been possible to stay open using the Ciste and WW wall chairs which AFAIR were in working order that year, but they decided not to. I think that was before Bob Kinaird joined the management, who has been doing a better job than the previous management.

So where would you spend spare money if they had any? I'd like a lift up Marquises Well (for which they have/had outline planning permission). The WW chair replaced/extended so it comes further up the Ptarmigan bowl as two possibilities.

easiski,

Ciste car park has been full on a number of weekends this last season and as Brian mentioned you get bused around to the Cas. That is the situation where the Ciste and WW chairs would be really good, even if they didn't have a full ticket office there they could advertise it as open and ask season ticket holders to park in the Ciste car park and use the chairs - would take some pressure of the funicular.

We had some good snow for about three weeks last season, including some nice powder scattered in among breakable crust conditions. The Ciste side isn't closed, I had some nice runs through the Anoach bowl and down beside the WW poma. What never opened whilst I was there was the Ciste Gulley - supposedly due to avalanche conditions. The East Lady off piste was also really nice, mainly breakable crust first thing with odd patches of powder, but nice once the crust wa broken up/softened during the day.

A snowHead

Background Info:

At present the Coire Na Ciste chair is operable and though most carriers are lying in the Ciste Carpark, the lift is used to take staff in and out of the Ciste, but the West Wall Chair is not operable.

Late in the autumn 2003 a fire badly damaged the Coire Na Ciste Chairlift bottom Station, but the load ramp was repaired, and a new hut and control system was installed prior to the start of the 2003/04 winter season. Subsequently during the later part of that season the top of the West Wall Chairlift was destroyed by fire. The West Wall Chair has not been run since 2003 when it was the only open uplift in the Ciste after the West Wall Poma's bull wheel structure collapsed, thus the carriers have been on the haul rope in a stationary position for pretty much 2 years.

With regards to the Ciste Chairlifts being obsolete, both lifts are GMD Muller lifts opened in 1974 (along with the Ciste Tow), if they are obsolete, where does that leave the all the T-Bars which are all GMD Muller lifts installed prior to 1974? The Meall Odhar T-bar at Glenshee is also a GMD Muller lift, and next season will be it's 50th in service.

The Carriers on both the Ciste Chairs are relatively modern Poma doubles, about 6-7years old, having been installed in the late 90's, as phase 1 of a Ciste Upgrade, however operational decisions has seen the decline of the Ciste accelerate since then, and just about the only time the Ciste Chair has been open to the public in recent times was periods during 2001 when road access to Coire Cas wasn't possible.

The late 90's Phased Ciste Upgrade Proposal:

For those who may be interested, the Ciste upgrade proposals were:

1. Replacement of Carriers. (Completed late 90s)
2. Alterations to mid station and top station for regular usage of West Wall Chair for Downloading. (Ciste Chair has always had download capability, with matted ski on and ski off ramps on both upline and downline.)
3. Enhancements to drive and control system to allow variable speed operation. Easier loading for less experienced, while allowing higher line speed for normal operation. Would also have reduced stoppages when miss-haps occur (which stresses the lifts due to the way the breaking load is taken), and enable operation in marginal high wind situations.

The feasibility of possible future work that would be phase 4 would be undertaken - Extension of West Wall Chair to the Ptarmigan and possible conversion to detachable grip load stations.

Unless the Pylons themselves are shot, given the haul ropes and carriers are relatively new, if the drive and control systems are obsolete and they can't repair them, installing modern drive and control systems would be very low capital expenditure compared to the installation of a new lift.

The future – Possible Options and Lift Conversions

The Aonach Poma is little more than a shell, having been canabolised to keep the Fiacaill Ridge Poma running. Thus there is no lift served exit possible in the event of mechanical failure or weather related stoppage of the West Wall Poma.

In semi-decent snow conditions, with the Daylodge Poma operating, the West Wall Poma will become a horrendous bottleneck further putting off more advanced customers, the chicken and egg situation referred to by several above. In the event of a violent storm closing in, you would be in the situation of trying to evacuate a large number of people via the top of the mountain on the most exposed surface lift line on the mountain. When the inevitable happens those left behind would be forced to walk out.

The Ciste Chairlift provides both an escape option in the event of failure of the West Wall Poma and provides an alternative route in regardless of snow conditions. If the West Wall Chair is beyond cost effective repair, strip it down and stockpile spares for the Ciste Chair.

I would also like to see the Aonach Poma brought back into operable state of repair, it is counter productive to have low level access to the Ciste from the Cas, if the only way out is the West Wall Poma, esp as though there are a range of blue runs of these lifts, yet a mishap on the WW Poma would dump skiers on the most challenging terrain on the mountain.

The Aonach Poma has the capability to be controlled and loaded from the OverYonder Crossover, however this has rarely been done since the WW Poma was installed, and hasn't been done at all in recent time. However alterations were made to the West Wall Poma prior to last season, which saw mid-line loading on it for the first time in probably a decade. Reinstating this capacity on the Aonach would give an excellent directly lift served run in the Aonach Bowl, and allow the lift to operate on many many more days than it could from the bottom.

CairnGorm needs to be more flexible in usage of the lifts it has, to make the most out of them. Setting up the Lady Tow to have various load points would allow it be used far more, again increasing uplift capacity in marginal cover, when snow is lacking lower down.

brian

Winterhighland, good to have you crossing over here ! You haven't plugged your own site, but I will.

www.winterhighland.com is the badger's nadgers of a Scottish ski site. Loads of up to date weather, snow reports, pics, etc. An absolute credit to you, Alan. Are you over 10 years now ?

Some very good points above. I wouldn't be distraught to see the WW chair go but the option of a lift pass hut at the Ciste car park and the Ciste chair running would be excellent on busy days, used to be my preferred route.

Variable loading points would get much more use out of the lifts. The cas loading at the top of the gunbarrel means it's very reliable. Same for the Goose t-bar at Nevis.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Winterhighland, yes, a warm welcome to snowHeads!

Thanks for all that interesting info.

I ought to be asking you this on www.winterhighland.com - you're very welcome to answer it there with a thread if you prefer - is there any news from the new owners of Glencoe? They were planning new accommodation by the lift station, as I recall. Are they holding fire on lift developments/upgrades?

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Winterhighland, Thanks for the very interesting info. As someone who worked on Cairngorm for a number of years until coming here in 90-92 I find it very sad. All my favourite runs/lifts are now either out of commission or soon will be. I'm sorry that they're in such a mess after building the funicular, but surely (effectively) closing some of the best runs on the mountain isn't the answer? I used to use the Aonach poma a lot with my clients, and the run is just lovely - holds good quality snow, not too wind affected etc. Crying or Very sad

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Some Pictures of the Ciste:

Ciste Chairlift doing it's stuff in late March 2001, the only way in and out from the 'Gorm that week!

Ciste Base Station summer 2004, rapidly falling into disrepair.

Finally, West Wall Chair in operation on 7th March 2004, only day of operation after 2003. Shortly afterwards the lift was badly damaged by a fire.

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Winterhighland, that last picture of course taken from highland-instinct.co.uk. Razz

I reckon I was one of the last up that chair, as the only people behind me was a couple and then the liftie. You have your facts slightly mixed up though, because the West Wall Chair operated on more days than just 7th March 2004. It operated 6 days in total in the 2004 season.

brian

easiski, they put fences down the shoulder between the White Lady and Ciste t-bars to create a run called M2 that leads to the top of the Aonach bowl. So you can still ski it as far as the bottom of the West Wall chair. Nice run, not exactly sheltered mind you rolling eyes

I don't think Cairngorm's actually lost any skiing, it's just a bit more awkward. tbh, given the choice I go to Aonach Mor these days.

After all it is free

Yes, should have been last day of operation in 2004 for the West Wall Chair!

easiski,

Aonach bowl is most definitley still skiiable - had some nice runs down it last season. You can get to it by skiing down the M2 which goes off left from about half waydown the Ciste Fairway in the Ptarmigan bowl and runs along the top of the ridge looking down into Coire Cas. It can get wind scoured on occasion, but usually fills well in most places. It drops you to the top of the Daylodge run and lift and has a link over to the bottom of the WW poma (and chair) across the bottom of the Aonach bowl. You can get into the top of the Aonach bowl from about half way down the M2. I skied the Aonach bowl on a couple of occasions last season. It was totally unpisted, windsculpted snow. The top flatter area was deep breakable crust wich was a bit tricky to ski, but in the bowl itself there was some nice untracked powder - very enjoyable. Providing all the core lifts are running you can access almost all the Cairngorm terrain. I think the one exception might be skiing down beyond the bottom of the WW poma. If there was enough snow (which I think there was last season but i didn't try it) you'd end up in the Ciste Car park and have to catch the shuttle bus back around to the Cas base.

Winterhighland, has just posted up a list of how often the lifts ran at Cairngorm last season which can be found here.
http://www.winterhighland.info/forums/read.php?2,55273

WW poma ran 26days though I'm sure the Aonach bowl wasn't skiable on all those days.

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i was thinking. since the alps are replacing there old chairlifts pomas etc. couldnt cairngorm buy 2nd hand equipment it would be a lot cheaper than new and because they are sourced from the alps then there is a higher knowledge on how to repair them Very Happy

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smithers94, bizarre that you posted that just as I was writing a Cairngorm report! Cairngorm's problem is rooted in unreliability of snow. The Scottish resorts are well aware of the availability of secondhand lifts - Nevis Range has installed them - but there is very little lift construction now. As the snowline gradually creeps upwards (though the past two winters have been a bit more promising), the tendency is to move existing lifts upwards, but it's a stop-gap measure.

We need to reduce global air temperatures.

snow reports

i see your point david. this seasons been decent, but this is rare i recon it could be another 2-5 years before we have snow this good again and whether cairngorm can keep it is another question Crying or Very sad

You know it makes sense.

Or install snowmaking.

If you check out www.winterhighland.info you'll see that Alan and Alan have set up a couple of AWS's to monitor temperature etc. with a view to determining the viabilty of snowmaking. They are also looking to setup a project with the cooperation of CML and a local uni to study the feasibilty of snowmaking in more detail.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

smithers94,

Of the top of my head:

00/01, 04/5, 07/08 and so far 08/09 were all very good seasons this decade. The only really duff season was 06/07. So your wrong to suggest we will have long to wait for another good season,

A snowHead

Ive never understood why they have never considered snowmaking, unless the conditions there arent suitable for it.

If they reduced the size of the resorts and focused more detail on less slopes and also consider fun parks etc i think that would be good for Scotland.

Do they have bashers?

A snowHead

Re: snowmaking. Has the technology not allowed snowmaking at higher temperatures? I don't know that's why I ask. Gt to be a Nobel prize for chemistry for someone.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Since this thread was first started in 2005, here's the story of the "obsolete" chairs.

During summer 2006 the electrics and control system for the West Wall Chairlift was patched up and the lift was run in order to remove the bulk of the chairs from the line. These carriers were then hoisted onto the lower Coire Na Ciste chair for transport down to the Ciste Carpark. During that summer both lifts were used to move materials and staff in and out of Coire Na Ciste for major repairs of snow fencing on the WWP track.

Since then the Ciste Chair has not been used to carry passengers including staff and staff are not permitted to ride it. I believe the West Wall Chair was used during 2007 to carry lifties into the base of the West Wall Poma when the poma was being used with mid-line loading to double up the Ciste T-bar.

In the autumn of 2006 all grips were removed from the chairs (except 12 still on the lines, 6 per chairlift, 3 at each "end"), they were subjected to NDT then put in storage and are ready to be used.

Both chairlifts remain mechanically operable but neither have been maintained in any way for years. In the last couple of weeks CML has come up with a figure of £200,000 to fully service the Ciste Chairlifts and bring them back into a condition for sustained public service, however the amount of outstanding work means that CML would need to increase the numbers of fitters employed to get the West Wall Chair ready for next season and with current staffing the outstanding work would take 2 summers to complete.

Keep up the snow dances, the West Wall Chairlift is not history, but it might just be part of the future on CairnGorm Mountain. snowHead

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

In 2005 CML wrote:

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Coire na Ciste Chairlift on Tuesday 15th May 2012:

The Coire na Ciste Chairlift's lower pylons devoid of sheave assemblies which have been lowered for servicing. All journeys start with a first step and this is the first on the journey to a refurbishment of facilities in Coire na Ciste and subject to planning the beginning of lift served mountain biking on CairnGorm Mountain. Several lift towers need new bases so there is a lot of work to do even before work starts on the projects requiring planning permission, but we have begun the journey to seeing the Coire na Ciste Chairlift spin again on CairnGorm Mountain.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

From a purely nostalgic point of view, great news!

After all it is free

I have enjoyed reading this thread. Great news, especially as I am a mountian biker!

Will it be run for skiers as well, or just mountain bikers?

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Was speaking to the operations manager on the T bar earlier this season and the impression I got was that it is primarily for skiers, he just said they hope to have the ability to bring up mountain bikers too.

Help!!

Cairngorm says Coire na Ciste chairlift is "obsolete"

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