 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello all,
My first post here but I have been reading a lot. We have been looking at booking our second family ski trip, but really our first trip (first one to Borovets was cancelled due to positive COVID tests last year) to see how the family find it. My wife has skied many times but is not confident. I have skied once in Austria whilst in the military and really enjoyed it.
I have found a package which includes one room for the five us. This appeals as most trips will have to allocate us two rooms. I may be looking into it too much but the holiday is in Wagrain, Austria, and I'm looking on its suitability for beginners aged 8, 9 and 11? The plan would be to have a few day trips in the UK to some snow domes just to at least be familiar with the kit and hopefully moving. Lessons whilst away. And have fun. Any thoughts anyone?
Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Welcome to Snowheads @R0dge. Don't know Wagrain, but somebody soon will. Lessons in a snowdome are expensive but if you can book all three kids a couple of sessions it will make a big difference. You can't take them as beginners just to have a mess around without tuition.
Somebody will express horror at the thought of sharing a family room. But I'm not one of them. It will almost certainly be a lot bigger and more comfortable than the little Toyota camper van in which we with our three kids spent memorable weekends in Scotland, years ago! And it will make it more affordable, no doubt. The key question for any ski holiday with beginner kids is "how far is it EXACTLY from our accommodation to the ski school meeting place?" The answer to that question can make or break the experience.
Personally, with kids, I'd always go for a self-catered apartment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Personally, with kids, I'd always go for a self-catered apartment. |
Ditto. With 3 kids, you will also find it more cost effective if you're bothered about budget.
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@R0dge, many years ago my first ski trip was to St Johann im Pongau, which is a neighbouring village to Wagrain and part of the same ski area. Although life has moved on in the past 35+ years (including my skiing ability!) I would recommend the area to anyone who is starting out skiing, it is a typically friendly "Austrian" sort of place. There are a number of similar places but Wagrain is likely to be as good as any (not far from Salzburg for easy transfers). I would suggest you check the location of your accommodation. Given that most Austrian resorts are real villages (as opposed to the typical French purpose built resort) getting to the lifts often (usually) involves a ski bus. These are invariably well organised, punctual and cover pretty much the entire area and cause no issues. However you might find the occasional (often cheap) place that is a long way from the nearest ski bus stop which might be a pain especially with kids.
Long time ago before the days of snow domes but my trips to a dry slope certainly helped when I actually made it to real snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@R0dge, Wagrain is great for beginners on the Grafenberg lift side, which has Alpendorf over the other side of the mountain. Wagrain, being in a valley with mountains on each side, also shares a mountain with Flachau and that side - the Flying Mozart and Rote 8 lifts - is not at all suitable for beginners (red runs). Where is your accommodation and what is it called?
Definitely get lessons for the kids - snowdomes are useful but a real mountain with real and variable snow conditions is very different.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 1-08-23 14:36; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wagrain, Austria, beginners....you will have the time of your lives!!!!!
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Thanks for all the replies already!
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
@R0dge, Wagrain is great for beginners on the Grafenberg lift side, which has Alpendorf over the other side of the mountain. Wagrain, being in a valley with mountains on each side, also shares a mountain with Flachau and that side - the Flying Mozart and Rote 8 lifts - is not at all suitable for beginners (red runs). Where is your accommodation and what is it called?
Definitely get lessons for the kids - snowdomes are useful but a real mountain with real and variable snow conditions is very different. |
The accommodation is called Haus Hubertus. It sounds like it is part of a hotel across the road which will provide breakfast. The details on the booking site suggest it's 5 mins walk to the ski school meeting area. Now I'm not sure if that's a kids 5 mins in their ski boots carrying skis....
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| Quote: |
Now I'm not sure if that's a kids 5 mins in their ski boots and me carrying their skis....
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Slightly amended for you, to reflect the reality.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Temesvar,  One advantage of taking kids to a snowdome for a lesson is that you could drill them in how to carry skis. At 8, 9 and 11 they could probably manage it (they'll have no sticks).
The location sounds good, but don't underestimate the cost of having to pay at "hotel or café prices" for all your meals and drinks.
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@R0dge, good location. Fine for the grafenberg
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Personally, with kids, I'd always go for a self-catered apartment. |
i dont know you know, we self catered for a while. If its within budget theres a lot to be said about half board in a hotel. No cleaning/washing/cooking/sorting bed linen etc, booking tables on nights off of the above.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I dislike hotels, especially having to eat in the same place every night. Our lot always liked having space to lounge around in their base layers, grab drinks (at supermarket prices) from the fridge, snacks from the cupboard. And you can still eat out if the budget will run to it. Cooking a few steaks and opening a bag of salad and a bottle of really good wine for £10 is not a chore and the jobs were shaed. But obviously some people enjoy being waited on, and don't mind having to pay bar prices.
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Wagrain is fantastic. I’ve stayed there for winter and summer holidays. The place you are planning on staying is very close to the ski school HQ. I think they do beginner lessons at the bottom of the Grafenburg which is just across the road. We always took Jnr up the Grafenburg though because non beginner lessons met up the mountain. It’s a lovely village.
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You know it makes sense.
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The ski school office is in the valley opposite to the Grafenberg gondola lift, but the lessons take place at the top of this lift.
https://www.rot-weiss-rot.at
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| R0dge wrote: |
Thanks for all the replies already!
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
@R0dge, Wagrain is great for beginners on the Grafenberg lift side, which has Alpendorf over the other side of the mountain. Wagrain, being in a valley with mountains on each side, also shares a mountain with Flachau and that side - the Flying Mozart and Rote 8 lifts - is not at all suitable for beginners (red runs). Where is your accommodation and what is it called?
Definitely get lessons for the kids - snowdomes are useful but a real mountain with real and variable snow conditions is very different. |
The accommodation is called Haus Hubertus. It sounds like it is part of a hotel across the road which will provide breakfast. The details on the booking site suggest it's 5 mins walk to the ski school meeting area. Now I'm not sure if that's a kids 5 mins in their ski boots carrying skis.... |
I stayed at Haus Hubertus 11 years ago. The owner family seem to have sold the the owners of the Wagrainerhof. Back then it was tired and you could smoke in the bar. It had it's own dining room and kitchen, but perhaps not now. Everything was tired apart from the 2 new apartment that hat been retro built. They looked fab. The Wagrainerhof is right net door and we went in for a drink and it was typical 4 star Austrian - Lovely. We had a big party with kids and they had a great time. We always got the bus in to the lifts and the stop was just the other side of the Wagrainerhof. There is a great beginner area at the top of the Grafenberg, with very child friendly lift. There is also a good area for nervous skiers from the top of the Flying Mozart down to the top of the first lift out of Flachau, but don't go further down. In both cases get the lift back down from the top. It is possible to ski to the Mid station of Grafenberg, but the last short section is quite steep, but this can be mitigated by staying right and taking a big loop around a copse of trees. You can also get the new link to Kleinarl-Falchauwinkle and again, staying above the base stations, there is some lovely, gentle skiing.
It's not very british orientated, but we loved it. The mountain food is great and usually good value. The bus service is free, and excellent. We didn't walk it, but some did. Look on Google maps and you can see how far from the Wagrainerhof to the lift. It's a decent walk in boots
We had lovely time in Wagrain
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Poster: A snowHead
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We always stayed in a half board gasthof the first few years we skied with the kids and it really worked for us not being self catered. It was dead cheap too back in the day so we used to stay for ten days. We tend to book self catering accommodation nowadays, but that gets us able to stay for six weeks or so over the winter. Mind you I think one week staying with two of our grown up children and their kids, in Le Lac Tignes just before Easter this year probably blew our budget. They did give us the huge en suite bedroom, and I think often scooped up the lunch bills, as they like to enjoy and indulge themselves.
We love skiing in Austria.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You'll love it. Perfect place to start. That's why we have our apartments there. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Levi215, probably best that the OP listens to people who have been multiple times. The wagrain reds, on the Grafenberg side, and those further over on the alpendorf side are really easy. There is also a blue motorway from the top of the Grafenberg to mid station and a nursery slope at the top of the Grafenberg.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
@R0dge, many years ago my first ski trip was to St Johann im Pongau, which is a neighbouring village to Wagrain and part of the same ski area. Although life has moved on in the past 35+ years (including my skiing ability!) I would recommend the area to anyone who is starting out skiing, it is a typically friendly "Austrian" sort of place. There are a number of similar places but Wagrain is likely to be as good as any (not far from Salzburg for easy transfers). I would suggest you check the location of your accommodation. Given that most Austrian resorts are real villages (as opposed to the typical French purpose built resort) getting to the lifts often (usually) involves a ski bus. These are invariably well organised, punctual and cover pretty much the entire area and cause no issues. However you might find the occasional (often cheap) place that is a long way from the nearest ski bus stop which might be a pain especially with kids.
Long time ago before the days of snow domes but my trips to a dry slope certainly helped when I actually made it to real snow. |
I endorse all of that - from experience about the same time ago!
I also stayed at St Johann im Pongau, I suspect that, like me, you were with Ziggy Tours 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@achilles, No a long departed company called Skilovers, the rep was a real character called Gen (Gern?)
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1. Smoking is no longer an issue inside Austrian restaurants and Hotels, though shared outside tables can be an issue.
2. Wagrain would be a great choice for early intermediates, with plenty of blues to go at.
3. The Flachau side has plenty of nice blues too (despite previous post!) and the red valley runs down to Flachau are at the easy end. The exception is the Roter8, download to the midstation if you want to give the blue from the midstation to bottom a try.
4. The valley runs both sides of Wagrain can be challenging, especially the bottom of the Grafenberg side on warm afternoons. Plan to download on the gondolas, especially early in your trip. That said in good conditions the run to mid station on the Grafenberg is a good choice for first red run, and (again in good conditions) the run from Flachau to Wagrain is a fantastic wide true red-run, flattering and moderately steep for a red.
5. There is more blue skiing from Flachauwinkl too, with access possible via a blue run to and from the PanoramaBahn - but be careful to find the right piste at the top of Flachau, the reds there are easy enough at the top heading to Flachau (effectively blues), but at the challenging end once off the top.
6. The G link (2013), Flying Motzart (2021), Panorama Link (2021), and Winkl Link (due to open this year) pulls what were effectively four areas into one very large area.
I've not stayed in Wagrain, but have started ski days there a few times, and have also stayed in Flachau - so plenty of experience of the slopes, if not the town!
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@BigJin, Flacahu does not have plenty of nice blues. There's one from the top, criss crossing the carnage then through the trees, and one small nursery slope and thats it. The reds are at the easy end but again can be carnage in school hols - not at all suitable for beginners.
When you say the run from Flachau to Wagrain - assume you man the flying mozart - tricky entry, people joining from all directions, usually very bumpy before late morning, again not at all suitable for beginner (trust me, I've had beginners on there more than once - never again)
I have a flat in Flachau and have hosted groups like the OP, I have skied Flachau and Wagrain probably 50+ times
Winkl Link?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
@BigJin, Flacahu does not have plenty of nice blues. There's one from the top, criss crossing the carnage then through the trees, and one small nursery slope and thats it. The reds are at the easy end but again can be carnage in school hols - not at all suitable for beginners.
When you say the run from Flachau to Wagrain - assume you man the flying mozart - tricky entry, people joining from all directions, usually very bumpy before late morning, again not at all suitable for beginner (trust me, I've had beginners on there more than once - never again)
I have a flat in Flachau and have hosted groups like the OP, I have skied Flachau and Wagrain probably 50+ times
Winkl Link? |
OK plenty is maybe an exaggeration! But they do represent a nice addition. My experience of skiing above Flachau is of wide easygoing slopes, this contributed to the impression of 'plenty of blues', albeit these are badged as reds, though might have been blues in other areas.
I don't recognise the picture of 'carnage' any more than other areas in peak weeks. I think it does struggle a bit more than other areas in warmer weather, and soft conditions.
Winkl Link - the lift replacing the shuttlebus or walk across the valley at Flachauwinkl, linking Zauchensee and Kleinarl sectors. Although it again seem to have been delayed ...
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@BigJin, OK, I get it.
I agree wide slopes, easy going for someone who is experienced and/or not nervous - that's not the OP's family. I've seen plenty of people out of control (and been taken out) and beginners clinging onto others in bad vis to ski down. It is mad busy then - much more so than other places in the area (loads of day trippers); that's why Wagrain is the better option
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@R0dge, Wagrain .. the home of Silent Night... Stille Nacht! Heilige Nacht!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@BigJin, @holidayloverxx, What you need is a Flachau based instructor who can cater to all levels of skier and guide them around the Snowspace!
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@RedandWhiteFlachau,
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You know it makes sense.
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There is a snow garden for beginner children at the base of the Grafenberg. From the top (that is quite flat) there are quite a few blue runs towards St Johann. Coming back you can download to Wagrain with the gondola. IMV Wagrain is better for beginners than many other places
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| @BigJin, @holidayloverxx, What you need is a Flachau based instructor who can cater to all levels of skier and guide them around the Snowspace! |
Or just some knowledge of the slopes. Most of the reds down to Flachau really would be blues elsewhere. The FIS run to the Star Jet gondola is an exception, a middling red. The Roter8 is a challenging red at the top. But the one that catches people out is the Starjet3 slope, it has a variant that is effectively blue, but a variant with a short section that would be black in some resorts, and right under one of the chairlifts, so the cause for amusement from onlookers!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@BigJin, yeah, we know. The OP doesn't have knowledge of the slopes.
The reds are reds because of these short sections of steep (also a tricky steep off the space jet 3) and the camber (e.g. to skiers left of the purzelbaum) in some places.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@BigJin, "Most of the reds down to Flachau really would be blues elsewhere."
Not correct, at least not in Germany and Austria, they have rules you know. 
Piste markings are defined in the German standard DIN 32912 and the corresponding Austrian ÖNORM S 4610. A blue piste should have a gradient of not more than 25% (ca. 14°) anywhere on it's length, A red piste has a gradient of not more than 40% (ca. 22°). In both cases there can be short steeper sections on open slopes (Where you can traverse to "lower" the slope angle). Any Piste with a gradient anywhere on it's length of over 40% is graded black. In addition to those norms, slopes may be left ungroomed and still be graded red. Slopes may also receive a higher marking if they are narrow or have significant exposure, where not being in control could lead to accidents.
Still happy to introduce newcomers to the best ways to get around the Snowspace. Here all year.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, how interesting, I didn't know that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Skis and boots; will you rent? Try to rent near (or at) the ski school, so you can leave skis and boots there overnight and not schlep back tired and blistered while trying to reassure/block out a wailing 8 year old.
Strongly suggest you and wife also take lessons; not sure about together (can test a marriage).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Orange200, I've lost track of which advice thread this is, bit I would highly recommend rot weiss rot ski schule at the grafenberg car park, and for ski hire. No idea if you can leave kit, but if you are on a bus there's no real schlep
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FAQ
