 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What about heading accross the Atlantic? Namely to Eastern Canada and the Humber Valley Resort. An article in the Home section of the Sunday Times reckons flights from Gatwick to Deer Lake take 5 and a half hours from where the transfer is a mere 20 mins. Charter flights are available from £394, something started up by the residents that already include a high number of Brit investors.
Certainly price wise it's attractive with 3 bed chalets (2,200 sq ft) standing in an acre starting at £275,000. The reports goes on to explain that the resorts have year round appeal with plenty of spring and summer activities.
There might not be the challenging skiing of Europe, but one can see the attraction - more space, more year round income, English spoken etc etc.
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For UK types, the U.S. is probably a better bet. For starters, you can buy a ski property in the US for not much more money than some of the better properties in Slovakia. Some of the newer areas in Montana, and Idaho offer great deals on units, but even places in Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire aren't that bad of a deal for someone from the UK.
Second of all, the property market is more rational and settled in the US. If you have a title search conducted and then buy title insurance (that protects you and the bank), it's pretty hard to get screwed in America. I've know people to buy properties site unseen in the U.S. with no major problems. You do not even have to attend the closing (just hire an attorney and give him power of attorney to sign papers).
In Slovakia, it's a different story. Expect to spend weeks doing title seaches and getting all the necessary stamps for a real estate transaction. There's also a huge title risk (something I mentioned in the article). Still, Slovakia is a much quicker hop from London (1 hour from Stanstead), so that it has its advantages. It's also marvelous in the summer: lots of epic hiking. The scarcity of property in Europe may also mean that there's more upside potential to real estate investment on the Continent, and once SK transitions to the Euro, there's 0 currency risk. For someone from the UK, there's a huge currency risk in buying a property in the US in dollars.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Johnfmh
Do you know if there will be an article on Poland? Or have I missed it?
thanks
MM
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Have they done France yet ?
Rich
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Have a look at " Buying property abroad " by Ben West - Cadogen Guide - most main bookshops. In depth profile of 45 countries. There are in addition separate books on the bigger countries - France, Spain, etc....
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In Slovakia, the process can be more complicated with lengthy title searches and transaction requirements. However, the proximity to London and the amazing summer activities, like hiking, make it an attractive choice. And with the scarcity of property in Europe, there may be great potential for real estate investment on the continent. Just keep in mind the currency risk when buying property abroad. For UK buyers, investing in the US involves currency fluctuations, while transitioning to the Euro in Slovakia eliminates that risk. If you want to explore more about real estate investment, I recently discovered some useful information at https://www.decosta.group/
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 26-05-23 11:49; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Holy thread resurrection !
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| davidof wrote: |
| Holy thread resurrection ! |
No wonder those links from the OP are broken !
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well, at least one person who posted did buy...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I love that, apparently, one of Slovakia's main selling points is its proximity to London 
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I think buying ski property at the end of a long haul flight is nuts.
Any holiday home only makes sense if you use it a lot. Otherwise you are better off renting.
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You know it makes sense.
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I have to confess I found this resurrected topic very funny. Let's ignore the fact that someone with an interest in selling property in Slovakia found it by doing an internet search.
We learn that in 2005 a 200m2 (I crudely converted US to British units) chalet in Humber Valley resort could be bought for £275,000. I'd never heard of the place, but apparently it has 4 ski lifts. It is, however, only 20 minutes from the airport which is really good news after a 5 hour flight.
Slovakia is close to London.
Buying a property in Slovakia can be long and complicated. And why not. It's not something you do on a whim.
Has time told on the development of ski resorts in Slovakia?
@jedster, "I think buying ski property at the end of a long haul flight is nuts." I had a collegue who bought a property in Florida. He sold it when he realised he was flying over the Atlantic just to mow the lawn.
And of course the brilliant "... it's pretty hard to get screwed in America." Clearly a pre Trump comment
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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When I travelled back from Ponte di legno to Bergamo airport I stopped in one of small towns (30-40min from Ponte di Legno) and checked the prices at one of real estate agencies. Lots of flats/houses very reasonably priced (£80-150k) and a better warranty of snow than in Slovakia or Poland.
Buying a ski property requires quite complex math. Does it make sense buying one for weekend trips or is it for staying there for a month or two? For weekend trips I prefer flexibility of choosing were to go depending on conditions. For a longer trip it doesn't make a huge difference if it's Tignes or Argentina.
I did the math some time ago and decided I prefer going where snow is.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
For weekend trips I prefer flexibility of choosing were to go depending on conditions. For a longer trip it doesn't make a huge difference if it's Tignes or Argentina.
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I guess your point about long trips is right although being able to go away for a month or two is pretty niche I think. And personally I am getting increasingly uncomfortable about the carbon footprint of long haul flying. For a month or two in Europe I'd take a car too.
I don't agree about weekend trips. Having your own place close to an airport allows you to go there at the drop of a hat when conditions are good. You can travel hand luggage and all your gear is ready to go as is your ski pass and you need zero time to orientate yourself to make the most of your time and the conditions. You maximise your time. I don't want to suggest that ski weekends to new places aren't fun - I did those for twenty years before I bought a place.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe in 10years time I'll have a different pov. My issue is getting out of the UK when snow falls and this year I travelled to a few different countries/places due to the cost of tickets and snow conditions.
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@snowyc, At the end of April we were looking at the Les Arcs livecams on a Sunday. The snow looked good. We saw that we were free from Tuesday morning so just booked flights at about £75 return and car hire for a respecable price so went off to our apartment for 4 days skiing coming back on the Sunday the day after the resort shut for the winter. OK we probably could have arranged it with booking a hotel nearish the resort (the resort hotel had already closed for the season) buying lift passes, carting ski gear etc. but probably wouldn't bother. We only did it because we had the partment with most of our gear in the cave. We had a lovely time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@johnE, what happens with the apartment when you are not there? some sort of airbnb?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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As ever, people looking for a definitive answer, when I would argue there isn't one.
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@snowyc, rented out by the immobiliere. Airbnb takes far to much effort to manage, clean, maintain. It doesn't over the running costs but I like the idea that it is in use rather than siting empty.
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@snowyc We similarly rent out through a local rental agency. They have links to Airbnb but that’s only a minor proportions of the rentals. Our rentals cover the apartment’s routine running costs, but being older, we never go in school holidays, so those weeks give us a good core income.
We just did a long weekend, just as a break from a load of domestic events the previous couple of months. As mentioned, having everything out there makes for much more relaxed travel. The shortest notice trip was us deciding to go when we woke up, booked the flights/car before we were dressed, and got there late afternoon the same day (we're about 90 minutes from GVA). In recent years, we’ve used the train/télépherique/PostBus more instead of car rental. This illustrates the ‘near to a major airport with a public transport option’ factor however - places may look attractive but if you’re distant from GVA or similar, and there’s no public transport option, it can be limiting.
People ask us if we don’t get bored going to the same place, but since buying in 2003, we haven’t found this to be the case. As mentioned, knowing a large ski area well saves a load of time in terms of orientation and uncertainty. But then we’re in the Swiss 4 Vallées so in a Domaine that totals 400Kms of ski runs. Which illustrates another factor, which is accessible skiing from your property: it needn’t be all in the nearest ski area, but you do want a reasonable diversity of choice nearby. Notably, there are a lot of ‘satellite’ locations that are much cheaper than the hub to which they are connected, albeit you ski the same pistes. Big Domaines like the Swiss 4V and French 3V have such satellites - where you trade-off a degree of convenience for much less €/CHF per square meter.
Nearness to a big airport; public transport access; size of the ski area; having other ski areas nearby etc are all things you need to factor into your equation along with stuff like whether the apartment management model includes a ‘war chest’ for big ticket renovation items; management fees; rental agency charges and so on. Plus whether the property includes covered parking; how heating and hot water is supplied (ours is central, so we never run out of hot water, unlike apartments with a teeny immersion); good wired broadband (increasingly important); m²; walking vs driving to shops and lifts etc. And all this is before you look at the ski area itself.
Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 6-06-23 9:52; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
whether the apartment management model includes a ‘war chest’ for big ticket renovation items
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If you are looking in France, you really do need to do some investigation of the "co-pro" set up. In ours, with 112 apartments, it worked reasonably well. The French law on this is very bureaucratic which is a Very Good Thing, especially if your French is not brilliant. A professional management company (the "syndic") will sort things out. Takes a while, the meetings can be long, tedious and repetitive (even if your French is limited by the third time around the block you'll be getting the gist) and decisions are made democratically. So if one of the owners of the 112 flats is a PITA, he gets outvoted. If you are the only "outsider" in a building where three French owners have been in residence for years, you could struggle, especially if they are permanent residents who will have different interests. A friend with a flat in Chamonix was always outvoted by the three long-term resident old ladies who wanted the communal heating running at tropical intensity all year round. The garage was always toasty, which at least meant you could leave your ski boots in the car!
As for "big ticket items" when it came round to time to have the exterior painting (actually sanding and re-varnishing) done the relevant building owners shared the cost between them according to the "tantiemes" (the pre-ordained share of each owner for all expenses relating to that building, based on the size of the apartments, which were not all the same). There was no "sinking fund" for big ticket items and it would have been very difficult to organise such a thing given the nature of the development. If the roof of one of the buildings had sprung an expensive leak owners of the other 9 would NOT have been happy to have "their money" used to fix it. Though if that had happened in the early years the syndic would have been expected to pursue the builder (MGM).
It's complicated.....
As for the syndic's accounts, we had a French neighbour who had a lot of accountancy experience and he declared himself baffled by their endless spreadsheets. I just set up a direct debit and didn't worry my pretty little head about it! You just have to take it on trust, really - and that's easier to do if a professional company, however inept, is managing it and you have a whole load of canny French neighbours keeping an eye on them and waving their hands about in despair. The co-proprietaires can always vote to change the syndic, if they are dissatisfied. There's normally very little choice and it's a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.
If you're the sort of person who keeps careful written records of all their bills and knows exactly how much they paid for utilities last autumn it might just drive you mad. 
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| Layne wrote: |
| As ever, people looking for a definitive answer, when I would argue there isn't one. |
I'm not even sure I know what the question is.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We’re lucky that our Swiss «co-proprietaire» arrangement included provision for annual charges for a renovation fund which it would be difficult to rescind. It makes the annual fees more, but as a place gets older, it’s preferable to being regularly asked for lump sum additional payments for the Big Ticket items. So far, we’ve had to renew the garage roller doors (£12K) and repair them when someone anonymous bashed them in (£5K); replacing the two central boilers (£40K); new water tank (£10K); re-surfacing of the garage access road (£40K); new lifts (£280K); and next will be re-coppering the roofs. This covers 80 apartments, so the individual cost isn’t huge, but it just smooths-out such irregular expenses.
We had some owners complaining about the renovation fund getting excessive at £300K (couldn’t we have some of it back?) just as they found that the lifts were way over their replacement date (£280K). Rather proving the point about the value of having it.
This underlines that another thing to factor in is maintenance, both of the building and your own place. Developers of a new build, or agents selling relatively new property never make much mention of this, of course. But like your own primary residence, you need to be realistic about ongoing refurb’ costs like the above. And if you rent out, then again, you need to be realistic and make provision to invest in internal refurb’ and maintenance to keep the place up to spec.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 6-06-23 9:54; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My apartment is in Austria. We have the usual problems with upkeep of the co-owned property, particularly the Renovations Fund. When it started to reach a level that the majority of owners thought was "excessive" they voted to reduce the monthly payments into the fund by €10 a month. So after 10 years, the fund received about €170,000 less than it would have done had we continued paying the €10 each month - i.e. the equivalent of 3 coffees or 2 beers a month.
And of course, now some big ticket items need attention - roof, guttering, wooden balcony frontages, cladding to improve the energy efficiency rating, ditto 40-year-old windows ... and the same owners are bleating that there is not sufficient in the Fund and they might have to pay an extra one-off €5,000 per apartment, and wasting hours in meetings trying to argue against these vital repairs and improvements or suggesting nonsensical work-arounds in an attempt to "save" money.
One recent change in Austrian legislation has been brought in to address this issue in these types of co-owned properties. From 2023 there is now a statutory minimum monthly amount that must be paid into a Renovation Fund, based on the size of each apartment. This is higher than we were paying, and even higher than the old rate before this was reduced, so hopefully the fund will now grow and keep pace with the necessary repairs and with inflation.
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| pam w wrote: |
If you are looking in France, you really do need to do some investigation of the "co-pro" set up. In ours, with 112 apartments, it worked reasonably well. The French law on this is very bureaucratic which is a Very Good Thing, especially if your French is not brilliant. : |
I'm always amazed at the copro charges on some places, I'm sure the syndic must be rinsing the owners in a number of cases. As for maintenance, my poor parents in law have just had to stump up 18 grand to repaint the front of their building which looks in perfect nick because they were outvoted on this. The joys of communal living.
Again, I've said this a number of times, be careful about DPE F and G properties, unless the other owners want to invest in bringing them up to scratch they will get harder and harder to resell and rent (even holiday lets are being looked at now although no law has been passed). Personally I wouldn't buy anything less than D unless I could see an easy way to bring it up to standard. The DPE thing isn't really on the horizon of French owners at the moment but it will become increasingly important. Taxes are also going to get a lot more expensive for second home owners baring a gammon government coming to power.
Actually I'd dump my money in shares and just use airbnbs etc when I want to go on holiday unless I was living somewhere as my main residence.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Actually I'd dump my money in shares and just use airbnbs etc when I want to go on holiday unless I was living somewhere as my main residence.
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This is a rational approach. We spent four months a year in our French place and because of "swaps" with other owners who wanted the four French school holiday weeks we always avoided, had additional spillover space for friends and relatives. It did make financial sense too, but only because of major exchange rate movements (we bought newborn and sickly euros at 1.62 to the pound and I sold the apartment when the rate was nearer 1.15.......). For just a few weeks a year, a "ski apartment" is unlikely to make financial sense. It could, of course, make other sorts of sense, just like buying a brand new car costing £50K could. But you need to do the kind of "project appraisal" which does not make heroic assumptions about net profit on rentals covering mortgage costs (or the opportunity cost of the capital if you don't need a mortgage).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| It could, of course, make other sorts of sense, just like buying a brand new car costing £50K could. |
yes or a boat, plenty of good reasons why you might want to do it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I guess one approach might be to think of a Safe Withdrawal Rate type approach when appraising property purchases for leisure. If SWR for a pension pot might be 3 percent, a property costing £100k would give you £3k pa plus annual inflation plus your net costs of property ownership to spend on holiday accomodation. That might still easily work for a family of four occupying for 10+ weeks pa but far more marginal for a couple using say 4 weeks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Depreciation rates on boats are generally far less than on new cars - depending on the boat and your canniness in buying it. As with camper vans, or vans suitable for conversion, it's more plausible to persuade yourself it's an investment. But it remains true that if it flies, floats or fucks it's cheaper to rent.
That's because most boats, like most ski properties, sit empty for much of the year but continue to cost £££. These decisions are driven essentially by considerations other than finance - which is absolutely fine, provided people don't kid themselves! People contemplating buying a beautiful dress or getting their highlights done, don't try to convince themselves it makes financial sense, they just say "what the hell, I want it and I'm worth it".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Our coprop survey reported that the roof of our apartment building needed replacing. It was a flat roof that had last been replaced 25 years ago so of course it was up for replacement. I checked their quotes and they were in line with the UK costs for the same type of work. In fact when I check all the quotes for major work they are in line with UK costs. The bill for our apartment came to £4.5k spread over two months. If you didn't have the cash the Coprop had arranged loan facilities. I was expecting it.
At least the apartment offers lots more enjoyment than shares. IMHO it is also a much better way to spend my money than replacing my car. £50k seams an awful lot to spend on a car £20k is perhaps too much. At the moment the cost of running the place is better than you mention. It breaks even at Christmas/NewYear + one more week in March or April. Other weeks + summer are a bonus.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnE wrote: |
IMHO it is also a much better way to spend my money than replacing my car.
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Not if you enjoy driving on tight twisty roads fast. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| People contemplating buying a beautiful dress or getting their highlights done, don't try to convince themselves it makes financial sense, they just say "what the hell, I want it and I'm worth it". |
Fortunately I avoid expenditure on both of the former (although never say never when it comes to inclusiveness  ) which gives me more disposable income to spend on ski trips.
I think the real confusion is that it is easy to conflate 2 objectives : 1) somewhere nice to spend my holidays/ extended periods in retirement and 2) real estate investment. There are probably better real estate investments than e.g. a French ski appt but they aren't necessarily going to give you much skiing or mountain walking.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Indeed, but the thing is, a French ski apartment whilst being a lovely thing to have might not be any kind of an investment at all - just a cost, like the highlights (you might really like them, DotM). It's when people talk about "investment" that the delusions can set in.
Some apartments have appreciated a lot in price in the last few years, as it happens, but the past is no guide to the future and people accustomed to the gravy train which British property has been (despite current glitch......) can come unstuck if they assume France is the same.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
I think the real confusion is that it is easy to conflate 2 objectives : 1) somewhere nice to spend my holidays/ extended periods in retirement and 2) real estate investment. There are probably better real estate investments than e.g. a French ski appt but they aren't necessarily going to give you much skiing or mountain walking. |
It’s “easy to conflate” because real estate is both.
You don’t get to enjoy shares. But you can with real estate. Some people buy property to enjoy while hoping it will also have some investment potential. That’s fine as long as the enjoyment is worth it even without the investment potential.
Buying property for investment is just that, investment. They number need to be estimated. If you get that wrong, you lose part of your investment. It’s much harder to justify the lose of funds by saying “but I enjoy spending time in it”.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@davidof, "In short the Maurienne is a bit of dump which competes on price with good, but not exceptional skiing."
When will you be taking on the tourist office contract? 
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| snowdave wrote: |
@davidof, "In short the Maurienne is a bit of dump which competes on price with good, but not exceptional skiing."
When will you be taking on the tourist office contract? |
They've not called ! I've no idea why not.
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FAQ
