 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You'll have to get a job stacking shelves in the supermarket then Stanton!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So why is Tignes over 90% full and hotels are springing up in every gap in the village?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| So why is Tignes over 90% full and hotels are springing up in every gap in the village? |
Howay, don't be bringing facts into it
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| So why is Tignes over 90% full and hotels are springing up in every gap in the village? |
Because they're getting the business from lower resorts that are now unviable and are making the most of it before they also become unviable.
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It won't be a sudden "collapse" but a long, slow decline. At some point, it will be too expensive and environmentally undesirable to maintain even a 2 month long ski season, even at 2500 meters.
Sure, there will be "normal" snow years -- and plenty of people with the means to ski them -- but the trend is inexorable. I'm reading a history of early Alpine mountaineering, and the maps of the Mont Blanc massif from the mid/late 1800s are incredible -- Glacier de Bosson went all the way down to the valley floor; same with the Mer de Glace; you could step off the end of the cog railway right onto the glacier.
The question for those of us on this forum -- more accurately, our grandchildren -- is what will replace alpine ski-based tourism. I imagine it will be hiking/camping/some ski rando/mtb etc. Ultimately commercial skiing in the Alps will be seen as just a blip, maybe lasting 100 years or so...
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Hardly on the verge of collapse, but there isn't a ski resort out there who is not concerned about the future of tourism. It's all about the timeframe you want to look at: destinations are making investments that will take decades to pay off, so whether there will be enough snow for them in 2030/2040/2050 are fundamental. It's not hyperbole to say that thousands of jobs are at risk.
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| Kramer wrote: |
Because they're getting the business from lower resorts that are now unviable and are making the most of it before they also become unviable. |
probably around the 2050 or a bit later for places like Tignes and Val Thorens, assuming current trends but as you say, before there will be a bonanza for the big, high altitude resorts.
Already lower resorts can't invest in lift replacements as they (or the planning authorities) can't be sure a lift will operate in 20 years time.
The difficulty in the near term is that a lot of people will no longer be able to afford a ski holiday and no-one has a good idea of how to replace mass alpine skiing as a tourist attraction.
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@Pasigal, Chamonix (iirc) already seeing close to 50% revenues outside winter (although it was always a good summer place).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As far as winter sports is concerned, a collapse of lower-altitude skiing seems inevitable. But spring, summer and autumn tourism in the Alps can be expected to flourish, given higher temperatures at lower altitudes. People will go to the Alps instead of the Mediterranean. At present many Alpine stations are essentially "closed" during May, June, September and October - all lovely months to be in the mountains.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Alpine tourism doesn’t mean winter tourism. The PdS resorts for example thrive in the summer. What a pointless OP post by our resident troll.
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| franga wrote: |
| Alpine tourism doesn’t mean winter tourism. The PdS resorts for example thrive in the summer. What a pointless OP post by our resident troll. |
I don't think that they "thrive" they do, however keep ticking over. The economics of mountain biking are very different to skiing, not least due to the fact that you can't fit as many people on the mountain or the lifts.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I don't think that they "thrive" they do, however keep ticking over
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I think it's fair to say they "thrive" in the high summer weeks of the French school holidays. But there is potentially a much longer season. There is a lot of relevant infrastructure - accommodation, restaurants, swimming pools and other sports facilities, roads and driveable tracks into the mountains, lakes. Scottish tourism does well despite remarkably few good "skiing" days in most years and the Alps has infinitely better weather!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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For summer it's tricky, here in The Écrins it's always been a big summer destination, but could it survive with out skiing?
there are a few issues.
Most people who work with tourism work flat out in summer and winter and ether earn enough for the rest of the year or have subsidies from the government to cover these time. Take out the winter and it might not be possible to make the amounts needed or the government may not be willing to support it to that amount.
Summer tourist tend not to spend as much money compared to winter time, ski holiday are expensive but at the same time it seams people want to make the most of it for easting and drinking out etc. especially when you compare that to climbers and mountaineers in summer.
Extending the summer season would be good. I have most of my work in June and September is the best time to climb and see the mountain here. But a lot of tourists rely on school holidays, this is really the only time it's rammed in summer. The reality is that it's only really 4 or 5 weeks of really busy time. I am not sure you would get the numbers, there just aren't that many people looking to get away compared to school holiday time. So its hard for places to justify being open with the on cost etc.
There are other impacts as well, with less snow there is less water in the summer, I run kayaking courses and at one time the kayak season was June till August, last few years August has become not worth it really the rivers are two low. There is also the effect on the mountains in summer with some of them loosen the perma-frost so not being stable or in condition to climb in summer, the alpine climbing season is starting earlier and ending earlier.
Over all its going to be interesting times ahead.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Kramer wrote: |
| franga wrote: |
| Alpine tourism doesn’t mean winter tourism. The PdS resorts for example thrive in the summer. What a pointless OP post by our resident troll. |
I don't think that they "thrive" they do, however keep ticking over. |
You'd have to get some detailed breakdown but I think it can be said they thrive during the 6 week winter holiday period in France. They do well at Christmas and New Year (2 weeks) and do okay at Easter. The rest of the time they are "ticking over" in the winter. In the summer I bet takings are pretty marginal.
I heard that for French glacier resorts the whole summer is equivalent to two days at peak season.
Who wants to go to the average French blot on the landscape in summer anyway? Austria/CH may be different or lower impact French mountain areas, like the Ecrins mentioned above.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 8-03-23 14:45; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The reports of the death of snow sports are greatly exaggerated.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
the whole summer is equivalent to two days at peak season.
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This is why they have to change. If you look at the Canadian model, a place like Banff (which yes, is very different from the traditional European model) Sees many times more visitors in Summer than Winter through the National Park. The Alps is a different model of course, its still very much a working landscape during the summer, but if, as expected, the Winter season becomes increasingly unreliable, then changing up to a more Activity Holiday approach is probably a good course. High Alpine camping, walking and biking trails, wild swimming etc.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
| I heard that for French glacier resorts the whole summer is equivalent to two days at peak season. |
I've heard that too for Tignes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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these reports are from ZDF and BR
in GER there is at present a klima - hysterie
Someone can see that with the protest in the airports, streets where they stick their hands on the pavement etc etc
This way are the most state owned Channels (ZDF, ARD etc)
Every second day, a new report, in TV or radio or Internet something about artificial snow, and how bad it is etc
Of course they dont mention that the 4 Week Oktoberfest need so much energie , strom etc as the Oberstdorf ski resort needs for three months in Winter but thats another story
btw @davidof
i have booked a week exactly in this place in summer
usually we go in AUT but we make a change and go for two weeks in FR and only one week in AUT
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 8-03-23 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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| turms2 wrote: |
btw @davidof
i have booked a week exactly in this place in summer
usually we go in AUT but we make a change and go for two weeks in FR and only one week in AUT |
Val Claret?
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| iainm wrote: |
| Hardly on the verge of collapse, but there isn't a ski resort out there who is not concerned about the future of tourism. It's all about the timeframe you want to look at: destinations are making investments that will take decades to pay off, so whether there will be enough snow for them in 2030/2040/2050 are fundamental. It's not hyperbole to say that thousands of jobs are at risk. |
No, they actually don't. Lift system investments are calculated to turn profitable within ten years max.
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A big problem for the French resorts is the typical French attitude to when to go on holiday. Winter is Christmas/New Year, plus four weeks in February, and summer is early July to mid/late August. This has nothing to do with weather, it's just when the holidays are, and makes tourist provision very costly when it unused or under-used most of the time. We have all encountered it in ski resorts, but I have been in a med beach resort in September, fine sunshine, 28c temperatures, then on the Sunday night everything shut! Season was over. There is massive scope to extend the (non-winter) season to go from May to October, but when we have been in France in May/June and September/October, in excellent weather the problem has been finding anything open.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Tristero wrote: |
| iainm wrote: |
| Hardly on the verge of collapse, but there isn't a ski resort out there who is not concerned about the future of tourism. It's all about the timeframe you want to look at: destinations are making investments that will take decades to pay off, so whether there will be enough snow for them in 2030/2040/2050 are fundamental. It's not hyperbole to say that thousands of jobs are at risk. |
No, they actually don't. Lift system investments are calculated to turn profitable within ten years max. |
How do they even do the business cases? I model companies for a living and it is pretty tough to come up with assumptions for a new lift investment.
For example, Les Contamines just replaced a slow old 3 man with a fast new 6 man chair. Great.
But how many extra lift tickets will they sell as a result?
My guess is that the old lift needed quite a lot spending on it and they decided that it made more sense to build new rather than spend good money after bad. But what is the payback on that investment? They will never know.
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| RobinS wrote: |
| A big problem for the French resorts is the typical French attitude to when to go on holiday. |
Thats the french... Packed restaurants between 12 & 2, then quiet. Really like to stick to their windows of timings.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| RobinS wrote: |
| There is massive scope to extend the (non-winter) season to go from May to October, but when we have been in France in May/June and September/October, in excellent weather the problem has been finding anything open. |
And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've been in the French Alps in September when loads of things are closing, and because loads of things are closed, many people don't bother going.
And that's before you even get me started on the French attitude to making shoulder season opening times generally available in advance on the internet.
In the UK, bike parks open all year round. In France, it's the summer holiday and a couple of weekends either side.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
| turms2 wrote: |
btw @davidof
i have booked a week exactly in this place in summer
usually we go in AUT but we make a change and go for two weeks in FR and only one week in AUT |
Val Claret? |
yeap
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| RobinS wrote: |
| A big problem for the French resorts is the typical French attitude to when to go on holiday. |
yeah, it is an inconvenient thing called school holidays - already France extends the winter holidays to 6 staggered weeks as opposed to the UK's 1 or 2 plus 2 weeks at Christmas and 2 weeks at Easter.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Wed 8-03-23 16:36; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| turms2 wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| turms2 wrote: |
btw @davidof
i have booked a week exactly in this place in summer
usually we go in AUT but we make a change and go for two weeks in FR and only one week in AUT |
Val Claret? |
yeap |
it will make a change from twee German alpine villages and the locals prattling on about "Gemütlichkeit"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Kramer wrote: |
| RobinS wrote: |
| There is massive scope to extend the (non-winter) season to go from May to October, but when we have been in France in May/June and September/October, in excellent weather the problem has been finding anything open. |
And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've been in the French Alps in September when loads of things are closing, and because loads of things are closed, many people don't bother going.
And that's before you even get me started on the French attitude to making shoulder season opening times generally available in advance on the internet.
In the UK, bike parks open all year round. In France, it's the summer holiday and a couple of weekends either side. |
Is this a problem created by the rigid behaviour of their domestic market e.g. corporate France essentially takes all of August off and is back at their desks/factories 1 September? Though I have noticed it in Austria as well, swimming pools and lifts start to shut down as soon as September comes around.
School holidays can't be the only explanation. There must be people in France without kids or post kids as well. In the UK such people tend to holiday off peak but is that even a thing in France?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
| RobinS wrote: |
| There is massive scope to extend the (non-winter) season to go from May to October, but when we have been in France in May/June and September/October, in excellent weather the problem has been finding anything open. |
And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've been in the French Alps in September when loads of things are closing, and because loads of things are closed, many people don't bother going.
And that's before you even get me started on the French attitude to making shoulder season opening times generally available in advance on the internet.
In the UK, bike parks open all year round. In France, it's the summer holiday and a couple of weekends either side. |
Is this a problem created by the rigid behaviour of their domestic market e.g. corporate France essentially takes all of August off and is back at their desks/factories 1 September? Though I have noticed it in Austria as well, swimming pools and lifts start to shut down as soon as September comes around.
School holidays can't be the only explanation. There must be people in France without kids or post kids as well. In the UK such people tend to holiday off peak but is that even a thing in France? |
it is almost everywhere in the south so...
Greece, Italy, South France etc
Especially from 01 till 15 August if you are not in holidays the town are like the town in "the legend"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| But spring, summer and autumn tourism in the Alps can be expected to flourish, given higher temperatures at lower altitudes. People will go to the Alps instead of the Mediterranean. |
Yep, 45°C in the Med in August is no fun. Much better to be in the mountains.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If the French resorts (winter and summer) find they can make an adequate living slaving for the peak holiday weeks and loafing around the rest of the time, why not? In the winter in the Alps, traditionally, and in much of the rest of rural France, a good deal of loafing around was done through the winter, with long days of working in the growing season. When the winter season no longer provides a good living, habits can change.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Tristero wrote: |
| iainm wrote: |
| Hardly on the verge of collapse, but there isn't a ski resort out there who is not concerned about the future of tourism. It's all about the timeframe you want to look at: destinations are making investments that will take decades to pay off, so whether there will be enough snow for them in 2030/2040/2050 are fundamental. It's not hyperbole to say that thousands of jobs are at risk. |
No, they actually don't. Lift system investments are calculated to turn profitable within ten years max. |
How do they even do the business cases? I model companies for a living and it is pretty tough to come up with assumptions for a new lift investment.
For example, Les Contamines just replaced a slow old 3 man with a fast new 6 man chair. Great.
But how many extra lift tickets will they sell as a result?
My guess is that the old lift needed quite a lot spending on it and they decided that it made more sense to build new rather than spend good money after bad. But what is the payback on that investment? They will never know. |
Doubt many people change their resort choice based on the upgrade of a single lift. Although over time those that upgrade distance themselves from those that don’t. In Western CH, Verbier and Zermatt for example, that invest the most, continue to get more and more popular while the rest fight over Magic Pass scraps and can’t afford to.
However they would have no chance of sustaining the lift infrastructure purely based on Summer business. A short season with a fraction of the traffic and much lower lift pass prices.
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Even with the extreme low snowfall this year a few of the Innsbruck resorts are actually extending their season (only 'til shortly after easter though). And the last I heard bookings are back up to 2019 levels or better in the Innsbruck region. But I do wonder if the last few winters - this is the third in a row with sustained <20°C temps in February - will help some finally cotton on to the need to to improve their summer/bike offerings...
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Is this a problem created by the rigid behaviour of their domestic market e.g. corporate France essentially takes all of August off and is back at their desks/factories 1 September? Though I have noticed it in Austria as well, swimming pools and lifts start to shut down as soon as September comes around.
School holidays can't be the only explanation. There must be people in France without kids or post kids as well. In the UK such people tend to holiday off peak but is that even a thing in France? |
Most of the bike parks here stay open 'til mid/late October; some like Sölden have to close earlier because they should normally be in ski season by then! Demand definitely does drop off after the holidays, but at least in the past the weather was also a factor. Still now (ie also in Sept 2022) it's pretty usual to get significant snow in September - obviously doesn't last until the winter but can still shut down any bike parks or lift-accessed hiking for a week or so (by which point there's little point doing the work to open again).
I've also heard somewhere - so quite possibly completely wrong - that there are/were issues with how long seasonal contracts can be without becoming permanent contracts/employee not qualifying for government support in the closed season.
I think biking has to be part of any solution because it's the only sport that really keeps lifts and service shops in business too, plus the logistics of keeping bikes safe lends itself too hotels with bike rooms; climbers and kayakers (IME) tend to prefer to dirtbag as much as possible and would rather wild camp than pay for a hotel or restaurant (though the German MTBers still love their 100k converted camper vans too). I don't know anyone who's actually paid to go on a hiking holiday, but beyond possibly a hotel room and possibly buying a new pair of hiking boots I can't imagine the economic contribution gets anywhere close to the typical skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Pasigal, Chamonix (iirc) already seeing close to 50% revenues outside winter (although it was always a good summer place). |
Yes I think it’s busier in the summer than the winter based on my observations. The TMB starting officially from Les Houches probably helps plus the summer mountaineering.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Doubt many people change their resort choice based on the upgrade of a single lift. Although over time those that upgrade distance themselves from those that don’t. |
There is a small area about 15min from here called Glungezer. When we first visited a few years ago, it was a 2-seat chair from the carpark to the mid station, and then a loooooong T-bar to the top. All the other lifts up there were (still are) T-bars and ancient 2-seaters, but the most interesting part was the download, as there is sometimes a piste down, but it's closed more often that it's open (I suspect politics rather than snowfall). At the top, you removed your skis and handed them to the liftie, who hooked them on to the empty chair in front. At the bottom, the skis would be already leaning against the wall while you jumped off the chair into the arms of two large men 
The chair has now been replaced by a shiny new bubble, and the T-bar with a hybrid chair/bubble. As well as customers retaining their dignity, this now means you can take your bike up in summer. I suspect visitor numbers have increased quite a lot, and while many of those will be season pass holders, the huts probably do a lot better out of it.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| I don't know anyone who's actually paid to go on a hiking holiday, but beyond possibly a hotel room and possibly buying a new pair of hiking boots I can't imagine the economic contribution gets anywhere close to the typical skier. |
I saw some research on this earlier this year. I can't remember where it was from, but I recall that while resorts that have invested well in summer tourism have now got their overnight stays equalling winter ones (so 50%/50% summer/winter split), the financial split is more like 40%/60% because winter visitors spend more. I guess more people hire skis than bikes, have ski lessons, buy lift passes etc. in winter.
Personally, I think that the bike offering can and should be a LOT better than it currently is. Places like Saalbach already have a good mix of activities in summer, but it feels like the scope for expanding trails is still huge. I expect there's a lot of politics in the way, but they need to sort that out really.
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FAQ
