 Poster: A snowHead
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I've decided to move over to a dedicated touring setup with tech bindings.
I've just bought some Salomon MTN Explore 88's. Need to decide which binding to use. Im considering the speed radicals - will I regret not having a brake?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Depends what sort of touring you're doing and where, really.
I used to use old brakeless TLT Speeds with leashes, and now use Kingpins. TLTs were certainly better uphill (but not that much better - Kingpins are still way better there than Dukes/etc) and skied fine in powder and nice snow, but sucked balls when trying to ski fast on anything inconsistent or hard (vibrations). Kingpins aren't perfect, but are much better (damper) in that regard and have a much better connection to the tail of the ski. Apparently the Beast is even better/damper, but also a lot more expensive and no flat touring mode.
Radicals will be better if you plan a lot of long tours though.
Personally not that fussed about brakes when touring, and in fact in some situations leashes are probably preferable.
If you do go the leash route, I like the BnD version (which you can by from spyderjon: http://www.thepisteoffice.com/index.php/the-piste-office-store/ski-leashes-traces-ties/b-d-ski-leash_55684bf72b3c5-detail.html). They extend far enough to be able to move around a bit when taking skis off for a break, and to stick the skis upright in the snow when transitioning, but coil up enough to not drag and flap around when skiing. They also have break points, so should release with big enough forces (i.e. in an avalanche).
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 19-04-16 18:28; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mattbell wrote: |
I've decided to move over to a dedicated touring setup with tech bindings.
I've just bought some Salomon MTN Explore 88's. Need to decide which binding to use. Im considering the speed radicals - will I regret not having a brake? |
Have a look at the SuperLite 2.0 which a) has an optional brake b) its is really dead easy to take on and off. very pleased with mine. There are now also plates available so you can move the mount point around should you change boots.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Depends what sort of touring you're doing and where, really.
I used to use old brakeless TLT Speeds with leashes, and now use Kingpins. TLTs were certainly better uphill (but not that much better - Kingpins are still way better there than Dukes/etc) and skied fine in powder and nice snow, but sucked balls when trying to ski fast on anything inconsistent or hard (vibrations). Kingpins aren't perfect, but are much better (damper) in that regard and have a much better connection to the tail of the ski. Apparently the Beast is even better/damper, but also a lot more expensive and no flat touring mode.
Radicals will be better if you plan a lot of long tours though.
Personally not that fussed about brakes when touring, and in fact in some situations leashes are probably preferable.
If you do go the leash route, I like the BnD version (which you can by from spyderjon: http://www.thepisteoffice.com/index.php/the-piste-office-store/ski-leashes-traces-ties/b-d-ski-leash_55684bf72b3c5-detail.html). They extend far enough to be able to move around a bit when taking skis off for a break, and to stick the skis upright in the snow when transitioning, but coil up enough to not drag and flap around when skiing. They also have break points, so should release with big enough forces (i.e. in an avalanche). |
I've just come back from a week long Silvretta tour. We all had variations on Marker Tours - they're really not unto repeated transitions between ski and walk mode. 2 of my friends managed to break the crampon attachment too. Everyone else (the Europeans) seem to be using v lightweight Dynafits with leashes. With long climbs i was thinking there is a significant benefit to a low weight, low complexity binding?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@mattbell, For sure, lighter the better going up! And I'd definitely want tech bindings for hut trips like the Silvretta!
It's not just about the weight though: any tech binding (inc. Kingpin, Beast, etc) allows the boot to simply pivot around the toe pin when you slide a ski forwards on each stride, whereas frame bindings like the Tours mean you need to lift almost the whole weight of the binding on each step. Basically means a tech binding would still be much better uphill than a frame binding even if they weigh the same. Equally a 200 gram difference in tech bindings is less noticeable than a 200g difference between frame bindings.
Obviously the longer and higher you climb, the more benefit you'll get from lighter bindings - all the way up to rando race bindings. Only problem is that often the lighter they get, the worse they ski (and at the more extreme end release, i.e.: http://www.dynafit.com/en/dna-binding.html).
To go back to your original question though, I wouldn't personally worry about not having brakes. Get the binding you think will work best for you, whether it has brakes or you need leashes.
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Thanks makes sense. I'm just going to have to give them a go and see how it goes!
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definitely get leashes... losing a ski deep off piste is no fun. I used Dukes before switching to pin bindings and the pin bindings stride better and are much easier to tour with. Consider ramp height (delta) when selecting pin bindings. Mine have a huge ramp and are very heel high which I hate...
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| To go back to your original question though, I wouldn't personally worry about not having brakes. Get the binding you think will work best for you, whether it has brakes or you need leashes. |
I wouldn't entirely agree with that. I have non-brake dynafits which I use for everything - touring, backcountry, slackcountry and resort. I use leashes for all those activities, but they're a pain in resort. Simply attaching and detaching the leases means that it always takes longer to clip in and out than my companions who have bindings with brakes. Yes, leashes and no brakes on the way up is definitely better, but I am about to buy a pair of dynafits with brakes (Radical ST 2.0) so that I can ski in bounds without leashes. I've come to the conclusion that the slight increase in weight is a price worth paying for the convenience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And I agree with skimottaret about definitely getting leashes when off piste, but you can, of course, still attach them to dynafits with brakes.
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The beauty of dynafit bindings is their minimalist simplicity.
To this end I reckon the classic TLT speed turn is their best binding for ski touring.
Brakes are dead-weight when touring (.... though useful in resort)
Reasons for TLT speed turn....
- no brakes means just 300g each.
- simple and robust.
- ski / release great even for big aggressive skiers.
- cheap (£150 each).
The extra weight saved by going brake-less can be used to justify a burlier & bigger ski when touring.
Speed Radical (as mentioned in 1st post) is also a good similar choice - though personally I prefer the older style rotating heel riser.
FWIW : Radical 2.0 look like best option for lift serviced / freeride (and to my mind better than kingpin, G3 ion or beast).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Chamcham wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| To go back to your original question though, I wouldn't personally worry about not having brakes. Get the binding you think will work best for you, whether it has brakes or you need leashes. |
I wouldn't entirely agree with that. I have non-brake dynafits which I use for everything - touring, backcountry, slackcountry and resort. I use leashes for all those activities, but they're a pain in resort. Simply attaching and detaching the leases means that it always takes longer to clip in and out than my companions who have bindings with brakes. Yes, leashes and no brakes on the way up is definitely better, but I am about to buy a pair of dynafits with brakes (Radical ST 2.0) so that I can ski in bounds without leashes. I've come to the conclusion that the slight increase in weight is a price worth paying for the convenience. |
Yeah for resort skiing I'd definitely prefer brakes too! But for pure touring, the BnD leashes stretch enough that you online to clip in/out once at the beginning/end of the day.
I used to own the Speed Turns mentioned above (but the old original version, before they were re-released as the Speed Turn). Certainly tour well, ski great in nice snow, and I had no issues with release, but they sucked outside of powder/corn/soft snow.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| ...but they sucked outside of powder/corn/soft snow. |
^ ski touring kit is all about compromise.
my personal argument is that weight saved by a TLT speed binding (300g) vs heavier pin binding (700-800g) can be used to justify a slightly burlier ski.
thus leading to better overall weight / performance ratio.
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@clarky999, @Haggis_Trap, I think broadly, we all agree! The answer for the OP will depend on his own priorities.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Haggis_Trap, definitely agree it's all about compromise, not sure I agree with the argument about heavier skis now though: with the improvements in carbon/carbon hybrid construction even a lot of lightweight skis ski really well these days (and not just the really expensive ones!). You can get a lot of ski for under 2kg now.
For the record, I had the Speeds on 4FRNT EHPs (something like 2.5kg a ski) and Lotus 120s (2.1kg a ski), so couldn't get much burlier! Current Down SD115 (2.1kg a ski) and Kingpins ski much better overall, but I would get lighter skis before a light binding if/when changing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Old Dynafiddles still can be a pain to change height on the rear.
I chopped my oldies in a couple of months ago for ST 2.0's with the pivoting toe piece and the heel is so much easier to use. I also use leashes even though they have brakes.
That said I've probably used my Vipec's far more this season as they are on a wider ski. But I'll probably be chopping the skis that the ST 2.0s are on next season.
Did a tour yesterday with a lot of traversing on my Scott Cascades (108) mounted with the Scott Guardians, what a PITA that was compared to my other setups.
The Scott setup is great for steep deep powder touring but not Spring touring etc
Looks like only a few more possible tours before we go back middle of next week, that's if we're lucky with the predicted cold snap at the weekend.
Was looking at my Strava earlier, and on 39* tours for the season so far!
*and that's not including the eight or so didi tours I did at the SIGB when I was trying out various touring skis, but all the skis I tried all had to have pin tech.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Weathercam, would be interested in your thoughts on how the Rad 2.0s ski (in terms of feel and dampening rather than burliness) on compared to trad Dynas and Vipecs, particularly on hard snow!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I realise what will happen next time I get a powder day (!) but on the topic of leashes, how many people have had a long search for a modern off piste ski? The reason I ask is that in days of yore with 2m skinny skis I did have a couple of painful incidents when a ski travelled a long way under the powder and it took ages gridding out a big area to find it. But in the last 10+ years it has always been very quick to find a ski - the width and perhaps more importantly big shovels means they just don't seem to go that far. As a result I haven't used traces or leashes for years.
Is this just me?
BTW, I do appreciate that if you are backcountry touring in powder conditions then even a very low risk of losing a ski may be intolerable. I'd have thought in traditional touring conditions (neve / springsnow) the risk was fairly minimal anyway?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This blog post is worth reading...
http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/tech-bindings-aka-dynafit-bindings-part.html
I accept that the author's preference for using lightweight Dynafit bindings for lift served skiing will be contrary to the opinion of many, but he is certainly not alone. I was in Val Thoren a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised to see a few ESF instructors teaching on Dynafit Radical bindings, both with and without brakes.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 21-04-16 11:01; edited 1 time in total
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@clarky999, I switched from Vertical ST to Radical 2.0 ST in January, for my new touring skis. There's no question in my mind that the new Radical is a lot less uncomfortable on hard snow than the older style. They feel plenty precise and offer excellent control of the ski, but with a much less harsh ride.
I'm plotting a new pair of skis for lift-assisted days on- and off-piste, and am seriously considering whether to go for Marker Lord SP (which would work with my AT boots), or quiver killer the Radicals onto them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jedster wrote: |
| I realise what will happen next time I get a powder day (!) but on the topic of leashes, how many people have had a long search for a modern off piste ski? The reason I ask is that in days of yore with 2m skinny skis I did have a couple of painful incidents when a ski travelled a long way under the powder and it took ages gridding out a big area to find it. But in the last 10+ years it has always been very quick to find a ski - the width and perhaps more importantly big shovels means they just don't seem to go that far. As a result I haven't used traces or leashes for years. |
^ Fair point.
My personal reasons for using leashes when touring is that
1) Dynafit brakes are cr@p and only work when heel is certain position. so better not to have them...
2) Skis with skins fitted don't run away.
3) Leashes are useful when clicking into skis on steep slopes.
Brakes are useful for resort skiing - less useful for touring.
On the downside leashes could be a hazard in avalanche or a big crash (tomahwak)
So some people attach the leash to boot via a cable tie (which should break if large force applied).
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I had a 90mm underfoot ski travel several hundred metres down a steep wooded slope in Japan and it was a nightmare finding it and skiing down one footed on a +40 deg slope was "interesting"...
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@jedster, not often. Only really once personally, skiing early season and a ski hit a buried tree stump in deep really light blower. It hadn't gone far, but there was really no sign of where it had gone - took maybe 30 mins to find. Another time a friend crashed on a double stage pillow line, pretty deep but starting to cook snow. He was on Praxis Protests, but they went easily 50m under the snow form where he crashed, and it wasn't even steep terrain. Only found them as we gave up looking and skied downhill after an hour or so.
But the reason for leashes when touring IMO isn't so much about losing skis in crashes, but skis (without brakes) running away in transitions and when clicking in at the top etc.
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Useful comments guys. I'll try speed radicals. Go minimalist and have a leightweight leashed touring setup. Then consider some beefier pin bindings for other skis it I want to use dynafit in resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| mattbell wrote: |
| I'll try speed radicals.. |
If (as I suspect you will) you find that the Speed Radicals have too much ramp angle, the neatest solution is to buy a pair of Radical ST toe plates and 8 x 19mm Torx Screws to shim the toes. I suspect that The Piste Office would be able to supply those parts, but if not they are available from...
http://skimo.co/dynafit-binding-parts
You can also use B&D parts to shim the toes, but the Dynafit shims look better and possibly work better.
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Fair enough - good cautionary tales!
I know they are much heavier than the options people have been discussing here but I've found the brakes on my beast 14s work very well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The brakes on the newer Dynafit bindings look a load better than the old ones. I use Speed Radicals with a shim under the toe and B & D leashes. They're mounted with Quiver Killers and no brakes means it's easy to move them between skis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Oceanic, Bear in mind though if you have to put 15mm toe piece shims in to get zero or low ramp then crampons won't work well. I found that out the hard way 
If I had to do it over I would prioritise low ramp bindings at the expense of weight.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
@Oceanic, Bear in mind though if you have to put 15mm toe piece shims in to get zero or low ramp then crampons won't work well. I found that out the hard way
If I had to do it over I would prioritise low ramp bindings at the expense of weight. |
ramp angle is a matter of personal preference....
many people wont notice or be bothered by it.
personally I much prefer having my boot closer to the ski (pin binding) than raised up on a bar (frame binding).
FWIW : it is also possible put a shim under the footbed to have same effect as a shim under binding.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
@Oceanic, Bear in mind though if you have to put 15mm toe piece shims in to get zero or low ramp then crampons won't work well. I found that out the hard way
If I had to do it over I would prioritise low ramp bindings at the expense of weight. |
The Dynafit own brand parts I suggested would raise the toe by 6mm. Crampon penetration would be the same as on the Dynafit Radical ST 1.0 binding.
My advice to the OP would be try the bindings as supplied first, but bear in mind that it is easy to raise the toe of the Speed Radical binding by 6mm if you don't like the ramp angle.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Oceanic, your lucky it is only 6mm on your setup, mine are 15mm and a mare... couldn't agree more with you more on trying em out but before purchase bear in mind ramp angle may be a big deal...
@Haggis_Trap, shimming under the footbed (zeppa angle) has a very, very different effect than under the boot (ramp angle) In mine and many clients experience who have had their boots aligned it is very rare for anyone to prefer high ramp angles. Typically neutral or +-2mm is normal.
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Poster: A snowHead
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^ yip - but you are probably used to skinny pisten-carven skis and stiff alpine boots ?
IMHO it really is personal preference.
certainly *some* people don't like the +ve ramp angle (....as you observe) but most would agree it is better than the stack height + weight of a marker binding.
as mentioned above the shim is an easy fix if it bothers you on descent.
though if you shim the toe of a touring binding up then you reduce climbing lift / angle on the way up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I switched to brakeless Dynafit a few years ago. I tour with a couple of friends; and ski in resort with my family. I have one set of skis I use for everything.
I love the lightweight of my set-up but not so sure about the brakeless angle. Actually made the switch after some high touring and thinking that if you lost your ski on a steep icy slope - for what ever reason - then a brake wasn't going to help whereas a leash would keep it with you. I got the coiled leashes from piste shop I think. Seem really good, with the attachment that is supposed to break in an avalanche.
BUT - putting skis on without a brake can be difficult as they slide around. If your skicomes off on a steepslope you are going to really struggle getting it back on without help. You have to be ultra careful when they are not attached to you. In resort they can be a bit of a pain. Finally, I was mucking around with the kids in the trees in Norway and wrapped myself around a small tree. Ski released but leash stretched. Next day the binding pulled clean out of the ski on a turn. I need a new set of skis.
Still trying to decide whether to reuse my bindings (which are fine); or to buy technical touring bindings with brakes
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Significant shimming of a tech binding is possible but causes problems. Messes with heel risers and crampons. Much better to go for something like a plum pika or marker alpinist with less delta.
Obvious exception is Vipecs if you want something with lateral release at the toe.
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FAQ
