 Poster: A snowHead
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So on a recent trip to La Thuile in Aosta was surprised to find that despite it having snowed heavily the two days before (~80cm) the pistes weren't in great nick. The blacks were super hard ice pack and a long red that was in the shade was heavily hard packed.
Temperatures were super cold, -15 to -20 so I don't know was this factor.
Anyway, it got me wondering about what weather leads to ideal piste skiing conditions. I am usually focused on that question for off piste, where the variables are fairly simple - fresh snow and cold temps during and afterwards, wind not blowing it away.
But what leads to ideal piste conditions? In particular, what leads to that lovely squeaky snow we love to ski?
Some variables:-
- if its too cold will steeper pistes always end up hard packed?
- do the pistes always need a bit of sun to soften them up? We've all experienced this later in the season and after cold nights, is it a requirement even when there's been fresh snow?
- what is the role of piste bashing in creating / getting rid of hardpack?
- what about the quality of the piste bashing - i.e., I've skiied great pistes in Ischgl a long time after fresh snow - do we need to consider national stereotypes as to how well they manage pistes (Austria and the Dolomites often said to be better)?
- number of skiiers on the piste, is there always a layer of hardpark underneath that will be revealed with lots of traffic, mainly at places where people skid to slow down because of the slope?
Any thoughts appreciated. I have a sense this question gets relatively little attention as people more focused on the weather tend to be focused on off piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I get the impression that steeper pistes get scraped clean of soft snow due to snowboarders and skiers side slipping down. It is the same ski touring / off piste skiing on steep, narrow slopes like couloirs. All scralped these days unless you hit them right after fresh snowfall.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interesting question but really difficult to answer, since people have different ideas about what ideal piste conditions feel like. But for your specific situation, I reckon it was artificial snow in the mix, exacerbated by heavy skier traffic. Cold temperatures so they would likely have been running the snow cannons, which creates bulletproof, scrapey stuff. That then tends to be most obvious on shadier, steeper slopes, both of which apply in La Thuile.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 18-02-23 11:35; edited 2 times in total
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I'm surprised you encountered super cold temperatures and 80 cms of new snowfall "recently", @8611. When was that?
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people more focused on the weather tend to be focused on off piste.
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I don't get that impression. Although we have some people who post wonderful off-piste videos and make it look easy, most of us spend most of our time on piste. These days I spend ALL my time on piste! Yours is an interesting question. From my own observation I'd say that apart from snowfall, what makes the biggest difference is the number of people - crowded pistes suck, from all points of view.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w, 19th - 21st Jan, literally 40 - 80cm over the two days depending on wind accumulations and super super cold, down underjacket on for only the second time in my career! (although I'm getting old and complaining about draughts more).
Yeah I'd say a lot do spend their time on piste, and maybe its just my focus but I never got clear in my head what conditions made pistes great
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| davidof wrote: |
| I get the impression that steeper pistes get scraped clean of soft snow due to snowboarders and skiers side slipping down. It is the same ski touring / off piste skiing on steep, narrow slopes like couloirs. All scralped these days unless you hit them right after fresh snowfall. |
Yeah I should of said I did the blacks first thing after pisting and they were pure hard hardpack the whole way. So wasn't at that point due to other skiers. TNow maybe that's to be expected after a very cold night? Do we get that beautiful corduroy on steep slopes and or after very cold nights? This time of year I suspect those pistes are permanently in the shade too, north facing with trees.
Should also say the blacks down to La Thuile are proper blacks, sustained steep pitches, among the starker ones I've skied for sure
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| denfinella wrote: |
| for your specific situation, I reckon it was artificial snow in the mix, exacerbated by heavy skier traffic. Cold temperatures so they would likely have been running the snow cannons, which creates bulletproof, scrapey stuff. That then tends to be most obvious on shadier, steeper slopes, both of which apply in La Thuile. |
I think this is quite conceivably a big part of the explanation. I usually associate the artificial stuff with those patches of sugar snow lower down, encountered in warm temps towards the end of the season. It almost makes this shimmering sound when you go through it. But I think you're right, whenever you ski those patches of white through green fields in bad seasons, the times when most people download, its often scrape fest the whole way.
Can pistes with natural snow be nice and soft in -15 though or will they always go brittle?
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Also there were cannons on those blacks. Didn't see them firing but season had been very poor up to that dump so maybe they were being sustained by artificial.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| 8611 wrote: |
| @pam w, 19th - 21st Jan, literally 40 - 80cm over the two days |
Yep, we were in the Portes du Soleil on those dates with similar temperatures / preceding weather. There was plenty of squeaky snow and generally great conditions, but the scrapey stuff you mention was exclusively on high-traffic runs with snow cannons. So 90% sure that was the reason.
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Interesting and worth noting. Are we thus saying that the trade off for artificial snow is that you will be stuck with (potentially) poor quality pistes where it is deployed for the rest of the season? I don't actually know how piste bashers work, I thought they might plough up the whole piste and start again, maybe they only do the top 5cm. I mean what the hell happened to all the fresh snow that fell on those pistes then!
I mean the off-piste was incredible, like skiing through goose down even after it had been tracked to pieces!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Zero wind when it’s snowing, ideally heavy enough snow so the close they lifts for a day OR for the heavy snow to fall AFTER last lifts, then stop snowing about 3am so it can be bashed. Get yourself on first lifts. Zero wind is most important once ice/canon snow takes hold.
Actually a little bit of rain helps if it’s not snowed in quite a while, but you don’t want the temp to drop too far too fast, a nice gradual drop to -10 - imagine feathers on glass, you need some moisture so it sticks.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Interesting. As in the wind will strip the new snow off the hardpack?
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| 8611 wrote: |
| Interesting. As in the wind will strip the new snow off the hardpack? |
Yes, even the tiniest breath If it’s hard pack. If snowfall is normal then a small amount of wind is ok, not great, but if snowfall is consistent enough small amounts of wind are ok. Once it gets to this stage every flake counts.
You need bashing to maintain good piste condition but if snowfall is well below average like this year the constant driving of heavy machinery over saturated or freeze thaw snow makes a hard pack base, this is of course compounded with canon snow.
Bashers push snow around with those big things on front of their rig, which breaks it up and smooths it out, the thing on the back is what gives it that nice corduroy pattern to pistes. Of course there are times when the freeze thaw get so bad this whole process creates death cookies - piles of snow that have thawed through the day, frozen, and have not been bashed in quickly enough, so when basher does come along it makes those rock hard fist sized balls that when skiing over actually shakes your brain and eyeballs… death cookies are the worst.
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You know it makes sense.
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What's wrong with hardpack?
Those blacks into la thule are excellent.
But back to the original question, to me the best pistes are sooth hardback that is just softening on a spring morning. The worst uneven icy, lumps and ice cookies.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Extremophile wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
| Interesting. As in the wind will strip the new snow off the hardpack? |
You need bashing to maintain good piste condition but if snowfall is well below average like this year the constant driving of heavy machinery over saturated or freeze thaw snow makes a hard pack base, this is of course compounded with canon snow.
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Probably another good overarching explanation. Might be reduced to - in a bad snow year pistes may be bad, particularly at steep points, whether there is fresh snow or not.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnE wrote: |
What's wrong with hardpack?
Those blacks into la thule are excellent.
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Fair enough, hardpack is at least predictable and quite easy to ski by just skidding it, and I often enjoy it particularly if feeling confident
But it isn't as pleasant as the soft squeaky snow, it makes beginners and intermediates more nervous and it probably encourages bad habits, i.e., just skidding down the slope
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Remember that the decision to groom or not groom a slope considers not just how much we'll enjoy skiing on it, but how long it will survive. Sometimes they have to leave it alone lest they groom it into mud.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The icy layer was probably caused by the heavy rain in December. The snow that fell after that probably didn’t bond to the hard pack and may have been quickly skied off.
The southern Alps were sheltered from the rain and the snow there (mostly artificial) has remained dry so far. Dry snow holds an edge much better than hard pack. Nightly grooming will have also maintained the quality of the pistes and prevented them from getting too compacted.
New snow can actually spoil a well prepared piste because it tends to be wetter and clumps together making for trippy skiing until it is either skied off or mixed into the surface layer.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| 8611 wrote: |
| Extremophile wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
| Interesting. As in the wind will strip the new snow off the hardpack? |
You need bashing to maintain good piste condition but if snowfall is well below average like this year the constant driving of heavy machinery over saturated or freeze thaw snow makes a hard pack base, this is of course compounded with canon snow.
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Probably another good overarching explanation. Might be reduced to - in a bad snow year pistes may be bad, particularly at steep points, whether there is fresh snow or not. |
Maybe, but as you said you didn’t know ‘x, y, z’ I thought I’d be helpful and dare to explain in a little extra detail. Saying ‘in a bad year pistes are bad’ is just stating the obvious.
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No it's helpful thanks. I guess I thought fresh snow would "solve" the problem but perhaps not if conditions poor beforehand.
I had hoped to identify something meteorological that I could look to and say "that will lead to good pistes", in the same way as I would for off piste, but that may be less possible if coming after two poor months.
@Toadman, yep, that looks about right, maybe even slightly too much snow as it'd bunch into bumps
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@8611,
I think the meteorological difference is that the western alps get a lot more snow and rain (on average) than the eastern and southern alps because they are more exposed to the prevailing weather off the Atlantic.
The southern alps are drier and often slightly cooler. Dry air is more suitable for snow making and tends to preserve the snow. Drier snow makes for easier piste skiing than saturated snow.
I think that might explain why the east of Austria and the Dolomites tend to hold onto good piste skiing conditions for longer. I suspect that the Austrians or East Italians do not side slip any less than the French or west Italians 
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| 8611 wrote: |
No it's helpful thanks. I guess I thought fresh snow would "solve" the problem but perhaps not if conditions poor beforehand.
I had hoped to identify something meteorological that I could look to and say "that will lead to good pistes", in the same way as I would for off piste, but that may be less possible if coming after two poor months.
@Toadman, yep, that looks about right, maybe even slightly too much snow as it'd bunch into bumps |
Only a snowmaggedon (with zero wind) event followed by regular top up dumps will bring it back to any kind of good conditions. Persistent dry air too. Snow acts like a sponge so extended periods of high humidity aren’t great, the snow sucks the humidity out the air.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| 8611 wrote: |
But what leads to ideal piste conditions? In particular, what leads to that lovely squeaky snow we love to ski? |
Reasonably recent snow fall on top of a well-consolidated base, well pisted by the bashers, with a little freeze/thaw to help it to consolidate.
Or just pot luck, really.
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I think it partly depends on the resort. Was recently in Zermatt and it was pretty cold but hardly any icy pistes. It wasn’t super busy on most pistes which I think helps. Too many skiers and the top layer of snow quickly gets scraped off during the day.
Personally I’d rather it was colder rather than warmer as I hate spring slush and freeze thaw conditions can also lead to icy pistes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Peter S, interesting take, I'd heard the Dolomites is colder alright, hence them opening 1000km+ with very little snowfall some years. Didn't realise that the humidity was a factor though. Certainly I've skied them twice in relatively poor snow years and I remember they were pretty good, certainly not the hardpack fest I've experienced elsewhere.
I'll pay more attention the next time. Gotta get back to the Dolomites to be honest, just so beautiful.
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| johnE wrote: |
What's wrong with hardpack?
Those blacks into la thule are excellent.
But back to the original question, to me the best pistes are sooth hardback that is just softening on a spring morning. The worst uneven icy, lumps and ice cookies. |
The blacks are indeed excellent but by choice I wouldn't like to ski either black 3 or black 5 when they're very hard packed - I would imagine theyre like concrete currently like so many pistes. It is much more enjoyable to have full edge control and the choice to make those edges bite.
And concrete pistes bloody well hurt if you stack as my cracked ribs on ice from ADH a week ago testify
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You know it makes sense.
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| Yellow Snow wrote: |
| johnE wrote: |
What's wrong with hardpack?
Those blacks into la thule are excellent.
But back to the original question, to me the best pistes are sooth hardback that is just softening on a spring morning. The worst uneven icy, lumps and ice cookies. |
The blacks are indeed excellent but by choice I wouldn't like to ski either black 3 or black 5 when they're very hard packed - I would imagine theyre like concrete currently like so many pistes. It is much more enjoyable to have full edge control and the choice to make those edges bite.
And concrete pistes bloody well hurt if you stack as my cracked ribs on ice from ADH a week ago testify |
Entirely possible (and enjoyable) to ski hardback with full edge control. The problem is usually a lack of confidence along with dull edges. Conditions that you don't enjoy/struggle with are great opportunities for learning, so when you find them book an instructor and take best advantage.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ideal piste skiing conditions? Saturdays mid-January when nearly everyone is transferring.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sunshine. Skiing up to empty lifts.
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