question on waxing

A snowHead

I've been waxing my own skis for the better part of last decade. I noticed I never quite get the smooth finish that you get from a ski shop. (I still go to ski shops to have the edges sharpened, and very occasionally for a full service). No matter how hard or how much I scrap or brush I can still see un-uniform patterns of wax on my skis.

Granted this might have more to do with aesthetics rather than functions what are the keys to ensure a smooth finish?

A snowHead

Use a sharp flat perspex scraper tip to tail until all the wax is removed and all the structure can be seen. Followed by brass/bronze brush tip to tail. If the ski bases have a tad of 'acceptable' concavity then scrape in 15-20mm width stripes. The most efficient cut is achieved by pushing the scraper (as opposed to pulling) with the top edge of the scraper angled slightly forward away from you.

Scraping is hard work unless you're using a very soft wax.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Finish with a brush on the end of a drill.

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The full Brazilian should be avoided by the less experienced

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Well contrary to spyderjon suggestion, I would never ever suggest to touch waxed ptex with brass/bronze brush. Only brush for after wax is is nylon (or horsehair/wild boar for certain things). Brass and or bronze brush is for before waxing.
But as far as "seeing un-uniform patterns of wax on skis" goes, it's simply that you didn't scrap off wax good enough. When you scrape good enoug, you don't see any wax on ski anymore, even with no brushing. One thing is, scraper needs to be sharp, and with sharp scraper things are easy. Another thing is, state of your ptex. Normally ptex should be flat, but sometimes it's just not (for too many reasons). If you are using thick (5mm) scrapers it's quite challenging to get proper scraping done on not completely flat bases. For this thing (3mm) scrapers are better, as you can actually bend them. But if you don't really know what you are doing, you can actually shape ptex from flat or relatively flat into pretty concave one with this, so for normal people I suggest 5mm scrapers as they are safer for your ptex. After scraping there's brushing, and while scraping is actually easy not hard, brushing is not that easy, unless you have roto brushes. It's quite a bit of work to get everything brushed good enough.

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Really interested in this topic as I have 4 kids and do all the ski prep along with my daughter (who races),

I have always followed @spyderjon, approach. Once or twice lightly with the bronze brush, then several runs with the nylon seems to get a really good finish. Indeed although I do not know the man I view him as the demi-god on this subject. He did once take the time to talk to me on the phone about how to properly adjust one of my bindings, amazingly knowledgeable and generous as I was just looking for some advice.

Interesting to see an alternative opinion from @primoz, though. Could you elaborate on why to avoid the bronze brush after scraping.

Best other advice I have been given is to sharpen the scraper regularly, When I first started waxing I neglected this and suffered for it!

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thank you all.

@zikomo I also followed @spyderjon's advice but I don't use brass/bronze brush after waxing only Nylon brush - would be interested to understand why.

After all it is free

@zikomo, in short... it's too aggressive. Bronze/brass brushes are meant to clean and open ptex before waxing, and that's not something you want after waxing. With roto brushes it's just even more extreme.
I'm sure when it comes to ski selection, structure selection and grinding and then waxing, I never did, and I still don't (even if I'm out of this business personally for few years now) do things based on what some wax tutorials are teaching, but in my life (first as racer, then as ski technician in World Cup) I did probably several 10.000s ski, wax and structure tests so this what I write is based on my own experience and all sort of tests, and is, in majority of cases, quite different then what PR material from wax companies tells.
Main point of waxing, even if it's "just" for recreational skiing, is to have better/faster/more enjoyable skis. So if someone wants advice, I'm happy to share things I learned, as skiing, even after more then 30 years in pro sport (one way or the other) is still my passion. But I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone to do things my way. So take it as my advice only, and not as something you need to follow. Afterall, ski waxing is not really exact science, it's more like voodoo magic, which means there's many different ways to get to fast ski.

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My experience is that most nylon/horsehair hand brushes aren't stiff enough to properly clean out the structure grooves after scraping, especially with firmer waxes like Dominator Zoom, and that a few light passes with brass/bronze brush will do that and are certainly not too aggressive. I'd never roto brush with a brass/bronze brush which is why I only sell horsehair and nylon roto brushes and I don't stock the brass version.

I sell a low cost 90 degree plastic side edge angle guide with a b&stard file for use as a scraper sharpener - just put the scraper in the vice and sharpen it like a ski side edge - it's way easier to do than with the file on the bench and gives a guaranteed square corner. I agree with Primoz in that you'll only get two pairs of skis out of the four edges of a scraper before it needs resharpening.

Or, use a milling machine Cool

There’s an excellent Holmenkol scraper sharpener which screws onto your bench/work surface - not expensive and works very well.

Jon C taught me in 2003 and I have applied his brilliant tuition on literally hundreds of edge tunes, repairs, and base preps. The one thing I would add is different wax behaves very differently and requires different finishing - and the final thing: while I do ‘sweat the small stuff’ I also am quite relaxed. So I don’t worry about a bit of a concave base (go on, just give it an extra polish….) or a wax which rips off too quickly (oh well…just apply a harder wax tonight)….

I’ve got ‘best day’ Volkls, everyday Salomons and Scotts, and delaminating rock skis. And a large set of family skis and friends’ ski to repair and service. I’m always trying this and that, and not over thinking it or stressing…. Always good to exchange insights but don’t fret …

You know it makes sense.

I normally only see wax patterns if I'm using a hard wax like CH4. To help get that off, I'll rewarm the ski somewhat after its cooldown to help get that wax off more easily. For the initial scraper passes, I'll use my older scrapers, which are never as sharp as my brand new scrapers, even after sharpening. This helps preserve my new scrapers, which I've started buying a couple at the start of each season during sales. It's cheaper than buying an electric sharpener.. I also don't use metal brushes on waxed skis. They are strictly used prior to waxing to clean out the structure. Once the wax dust quantity is minimal (because really you don't want to load up your brushes with old wax because you're too lazy to scrape), I'll use alternating rotobrushes and hand brushes (moving from stiffer to softer) until the bases gleam like satin. Rotobrushes are lifesavers when it comes to brushing.

There are few hard and fast rules for tuning. Everyone starts out believing there must be, but in the end it's a personal journey. I don't have Primoz's credentials, just been tuning for 17 years and learning based on how my skis run on the flats. I actually keep records of which ski was tuned on what date and the steps taken. Silly, of course, but I do refer back on occasion.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Blimey, some of you guys are really serious about your ski prep.

@euanovsky, why don't you your own basic ptex repairs and edges. I'm not particularly practical and I do ours. Don't need to much gear. Certainly not if already waxing.

A snowHead

@Layne, oh I do ptex repairs too. I had done the edges myself previously. Just that I don't sharpen them as often as I wax or ptex I'm not as confident. Plus I don't have the tool to measure the side edge angle (having said that do I actually need that?). I take the skis for servicing occasionally so I just let the pro do it.

A snowHead

@euanovsky, I service - base repair if required (occasionally), edge sharpen, wax - only between each week of we go (6-8 days skiing). It would be better to wax more frequently but it's not easy on a practical level (I did a balcony job once!). But they just about make it.

You do need a side edge angle but they are not that expensive. spyderjon's guide can help if you are not sure.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Really interesting responses. Thanks @spyderjon, @primoz, and @valais2,

One thing I am much more nervous of is edge sharpening. My daughter us uber confident and sharpens her skis daily on holiday, I think mostly because she has done quite a bot of dry slope racing where frequent sharpening is required. I am always worried that hand tuning I will get something wrong!

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Where it can go badly wrong is doing the base edge.

Doing the side edge's with a guide isn't a big deal IME.

I do all our edges at 87 or 3 degrees (depending which way you look it!). It took me a while to figure a sidewall remover is very useful. And I was more worried about using that than the edge guide but I think I've got the hang of it.

One thing I've never really figured to well is all this getting burrs out or dealing with the overhang and the various "stones" used.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@zikomo, Once your base edge is set and your side edge angle is dialed in, it's pretty hard to do too much damage to your edge with hand tuning kit without REALLY going for it with the heavy files as you're using a guide. Beyond knocking off any obvious dings, burrs or rust, don't worry too much about the base edge once its done, just polish up the side edge with steel or diamond in a set guide... WARNING: Diamond files are like Pokémon - you gotta get 'em all, whether you need them or not.

All this reminds me, my new K2 board hasn't been setup yet, must see what angles its at...

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Layne - using a sidewall plane was a key part of the morning’s training with Jon Coster. By using one on his skis prior to an edge tune, I terrified a friend who wanted to learn how to use the huge TOKO workshop box his father had bought. No sidewall plane in there, and I needed to strip them on his sidewall-built HEADS. After I explained why you needed to remove the plastic/rubber he understood, but was still alarmed at the spirals of materials coming off…but he swiftly got the hang of it.

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To dig up an old topic, is there any one electrical tool that could up my game in getting that smooth finish? At the moment all the tools I have are powered mechanically (i.e. by me). I use a plastic scraper (which I sharpen regularly) to scrap till no more wax is coming out then finish with brass and nylon brushes (as spyderjon suggested).

Also very conscious it might have more to do with my technique rather than the tools!

After all it is free

@euanovsky, Other than aesthetics I am not sure overly smooth finish is necessary.

Certainly I feel I get a good enough finish using the brush manually.

Rotobrushes all the way.

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@sibhusky, seems like overkill Puzzled

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Brushing is one of most annoying things with waxing and it takes quite some time to have it done properly, so yes roto all the way. It's not overkill, even if you have just a pair or two.

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Maybe I am doing it wrong. Couple of scrapes with the plastic and 5 or 6 passes by hand (section by section) with the brush seems to work fine for me.

I don't find it annoying.

You know it makes sense.

@Layne, different standard what is good brushing Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I know there are all sorts of other environmental and pollution-related considerations that have to be made when we travel to and enjoy snowsports but please don't do as @pam w suggests and leave excess wax on your bases. It will come off but it just leaves even more pollution and rubbish on the mountains. When certain types of waxes are already being banned for the damage they cause, let us try to minimise what we leave behind, eh?

I really wouldn't want to leave the equivalent pile of wax that ends up in the bin post-scraping on the mountains instead, just for the sake of laziness/ignorance.

A snowHead

Hahaha yeah with single pisten bully spending more then 20L of diesel per every single hour it operates, badly scrapped and brushed wax (even if c8 fluoro) is really biggest issue when it comes to environment. I'm sure we are all now full in eco mode, but please try to keep things in perspective.

A snowHead

@primoz, I agree with you 100% but that doesn't negate what @jd_evans says

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

If anyone is THAT environmentally obsessed, then he or she should never go skiing in first place. All the travel, all the sh**t resorts do to environment to make skiing possible, all the crap environment gets when all skiing equipment is made. With that in mind, and if badly brushed skis are issue, someone this ecologically obsessed and worried what he will leave behind, should never be on skis in first place.

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@primoz, question for you...I was at a prep course run by the guy who was the Head prep guy for Svindal and co in Norway. You probably know him as "Smitty". Anyways, he actually suggested for race kids under 16 the following proceedure after each training session: a quick brush with steel (to clean), then a layer of the old CH8 (when it was around), leave overnight. On the day of training, scrape fully, then ski. No final brushing.

I am pretty sure that most race kids are doing this in Norway.

Smitty was adamant that kids under 16 do not need anything more advanced than that.

So, is final brushing really neccessary?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Lilledonmarco, well he's alpine guy, my main background is xc, which is where real waxing is done Laughing

Yeah I know him pretty good, but that joke about background is partly true, as even between alpine techs xc guys are considered as waxing gods. But he is right about this. For U16 there's plenty of other things that matter way more then perfect skis, and I agree with him 110% when it comes to this, especially to wax selection. CH6/7/8 is all you need, even for xc not just alpine, at those categories. Using for 200eur of waxes for single pair of skis for U16 is insane (and yes it's happening regularly).... hell it's insane thing to do even of WC when we are talking about SL or GS, and it's regularly done by pretty much everyone even if it has absolutely no influence on race outcome.
As for brushing goes, I still think it should be done. It's good for skis, and it doesn't take much time, especially with rotobrushes nowadays. But then again, it depends on context he was talking about. I can't say how is kids system in Norway set, but down here it depends on race location and if parents are around, but if not, coaches normally take care of skis for whole group. This means, one or two coaches need to prepare 10, 20 or 30 pairs of skis. With this in mind it's totally understandable to skip parts not necesarilly needed. And training run won't be any better or worse if skis are brushed or not. If you are preparing 2, 3 or 5 pairs, going over ski with roto takes 10sec, so I wouldn't skip it, certainly not for xc. But yeah, spending most of my time on XC tour, you get "slightly" more anal when it comes to skis, then if you are all the time on alpine tour, and even those years on alpine, I carried over most of my xc ski preparation obsession with me.

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On a related note, why do people saying brushing is time consuming? For me scraping takes the most time and if I scrape well then I just brush three times with overlapping stroke with brass/nylon brushes. Am I missing a trick here?

Are there any tools that will make scraping easier?

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@euanovsky, I used to scrap quite a lot but then realised I didn't have too. You just need to get off the excess

So a couple of passes then a bit of brushing.

I think (and I was the same tbh) us punter DIYers can overthink things.

After all it is free

@euanovsky, scrapping is 2, 3 passes with scrapper and if it's sharp it's really easy, and fast, thing to do. Brushing, especially with hand brushes is time consuming and when you have 10 or 15 or more pairs to prepare, it's not so easy thing to do (physically), as someone might think. That's why I wrote before, that roto is way to go. With roto it's really 10-15sec per ski, so it's no big deal, but with hand brushes, it's one of most annoying things to do for me.
As for "tools to make scraping easier"... something to keep your scrapers sharp, whatever method you pick to do this job. Scraper is ok for pair, max 2 (considering you are using all 4 edges of it), then it needs sharpening. With sharp scraper it goes real easy, so scraper sharpener (either machine, disc grinder, file or sandpaper) is tool to make it easier Smile

@primoz, Thanks that's really helpful. I scrap on average maybe 10 times per ski and repeat that for three pairs of skis in the household it takes up a significant amount of time! I do sharpen the scraper though nowhere as close as you suggested. I sharpen once perhaps scraping every three pairs of skis. Will learn to work smarter in the future Embarassed

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@primoz, @euanovsky, @spyderjon, thanks for a very informative thread... will ditch my metal scraper and sharpen my plastic (although my wife doesnt' trust me with her new Factions...)

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