Question for the technique nerds. What's that little bump called at the end of a fully completed edged turn ( I won't say fully carved lest the ghost of @weathercam pops up demanding proof via Carv stats#) that pops you effortlessly into the opposite turn?
And then how do you go about deliberately creating it rather than it happening a a result of other shizzle? By which I mean it just seems to happen.
#Actually related question for the Carv nerds. How does Carv score you for a perfectly drifted turn where you don't really engage the edge but again effortlessly reposition. To me it's one of the most satisfying feelings in groomer skiing on the work smarter rather than harder basis plus the momentary feeling of weightlessness.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Dave of the Marmottes, I don't think there necessarily is one?
Think a fully completed turn with a "horizontal" traverse before the next one...
I think "all" you're thinking of is the maximum of gravity before you'd start going back uphill?
I've certainly never heard it named
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I hesitate to tread on this holy ground..... but an inner leg extension (ILE) might be described as "popping you effortlessly into the next turn". Topples you over......lots of references here over the years. But it's a bit early in the morning - about time I had some coffee and toast.
@Dave of the Marmottes, called a Scandinavian flick in rally car performance just as the radius is finishing, the mass is loaded to then accept the "recoil" and flick it easily in the opposite direction.
Done correctly and with good cadence, looks effortless. Get it wrong though and you'll be eating scenery
Also in bike track racing is an equivalent, taken too far and risk of return gets complicated as it becomes a knife edge judgement to "high side" crashing in which the rider is flicked into the air as kinetics play out. You can also see this in slalom skiing with the edge grip ultimately overwhelming the skier, with them being fired in rotation backwards down the slope as they've tried to make a cross piste gate.
The ski Sunday last had really good footage of this, both ladies and mens with very different levels of release on tails for each skier showing how aggressive they were in working that flick.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I think (if I understand you correctly) - that by holding onto the turn a little longer, possibly using a little extra knee lean/angulation at the end for extra power - you get fired into the next turn with surprising, sometimes disconcerting power. I think this is using the torsional stiffness of the ski, which untwists at transition and adds power to the turn.
I'm not sure it has a name.....but seem to remember something called a J-Turn, which meant holding onto the turn longer, which seemed to trigger the torsional twisting and untwisting of the ski.
I'd call it rebound or pop, where the ski is bent and then as it straightens for the next turn you get the rebound. So you can create it by bending the ski, which can't be done when skidding, so edge are needed, but if you go at it too hard you potentially judder the ski and lose the effect.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I call it pop, but don't manage to generate it very often. You need grippy snow, it to not be particularly steep to help with edge grip, but steep enough for a bit of pace, and to be skiing fairly aggressively for the skis to bend enough to feel the rebound. Also you need to not be on reverse camber skis (I could probably get 'pop' more consistently if I skied on proper piste skis). If I do feel it then I take that to be pretty good confirmation that I am carving properly regardless of the lack of pressure sensors in my boots
After all it is free
After all it is free
Old Fartbag wrote:
I think (if I understand you correctly) - that by holding onto the turn a little longer, possibly using a little extra knee lean/angulation at the end for extra power - you get fired into the next turn with surprising, sometimes disconcerting power. I think this is using the torsional stiffness of the ski, which untwists at transition and adds power to the turn.
I'm not sure it has a name.....but seem to remember something called a J-Turn, which meant holding onto the turn longer, which seemed to trigger the torsional twisting and untwisting of the ski.
I could, of course, be completely wrong.
As I understand it, its the strength of camber that gives rebound entirely. But to enact that kinetic then its the torsional performance that firstly controls edge angle out along the ski from foot area to either keep that presented to the snow in the same orientation (very high torsional, example slalom ski) or blend it away with softer characteristics (lower torsional support, example park type ski) with either type being able to give very different application to the same camber specification.
Having an acute torsional specification (very high resistance to twisting along entire ski length) brings a ski that really starts to make higher demands on skill, but can have the ability to seriously put a bend into camber in facilitating extreme edge grip.
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As I understand it, its the strength of camber that gives rebound entirely. But to enact that kinetic then its the torsional performance that firstly controls edge angle out along the ski from foot area to either keep that presented to the snow in the same orientation (very high torsional, example slalom ski) or blend it away with softer characteristics (lower torsional support, example park type ski) with either type being able to give very different application to the same camber specification.
Having an acute torsional specification (very high resistance to twisting along entire ski length) brings a ski that really starts to make higher demands on skill, but can have the ability to seriously put a bend into camber in facilitating extreme edge grip.
Excellent, thank you.
My possibly flawed understanding is that:
1. You can "load" the ski into Reverse Camber, by pushing forward and across at the start of the turn. When the Camber "springs" back into its normal shape, it adds effortless power to the turn....as seen in the Warren Smith video that often gets posted.
2. Holding onto a Short Turn longer (ie while facing down the fall line); or using extra knee lean at the end of a Long Turn, adds extra power to the turn. I put that down to the torsional twisting and untwisting of the ski.....but it may well be more to do with Camber.
The above two manoeuvres are subtly different - but both add power to the turn.....and in the case of "2", on a powerful slalom ski, can create too much force to handle if your timing is wrong or you are out of balance (eg. weight too far back, so you get pinged up in the air by the Tails).
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 23-02-23 13:02; edited 3 times in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@kitenski, snow on the trees and what look like red piste poles, sure the camera often flattens things out but that doesn't look steep or icy to me
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
#Actually related question for the Carv nerds. How does Carv score you for a perfectly drifted turn where you don't really engage the edge but again effortlessly reposition. To me it's one of the most satisfying feelings in groomer skiing on the work smarter rather than harder basis plus the momentary feeling of weightlessness.
Low
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rambotion wrote:
@kitenski, snow on the trees and what look like red piste poles, sure the camera often flattens things out but that doesn't look steep or icy to me
that's the red run under the pleney lift in Morzine, and it is pretty steep, it's the camera flattening that out.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thinking about it further - @kitenski is "on the money" calling it "Rebound".
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Old Fartbag wrote:
Thinking about it further - @kitenski is "on the money" calling it "Rebound".
Sensibly, yes that's what is happening.
Kinetics wise, you are taking a run at it that you'd probably not be to apply easily with static input to bend the ski arc to that degree, so cadence in that at the point you desire, followed by timing to attenuate your body mass influence JUST at the point the spring resonance (camber is just a big spring, energy store) is reversing, then with these focused on the same timeline "pop rebound" will occur exactly where you are trying to make best use of it in the direction you're steering.
If you don't balance the cadence of each element adequately, could be called focus, you'll then get a bit of a dog's dinner of techniques.
That old sketch of Morecombe and Wise with Andrè Previn, I believe, when Previn pointed out to Eric that he was playing all the wrong notes, to which the reply was "I'm playing all the right notes, but in the wrong order" springs to mind
That's if I've got that right.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Dave of the Marmottes, its called "a can of worms" and you've just opened it!
Is it before you pat the small child on the head but before you threatened to beat them with your pole? (you had to be there)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
"I'm playing all the right notes, but in the wrong order"
'I am playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order'
WEHAAY! *throws nothing in the air and catches it in a paper bag*
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Richard_Sideways, I was just showing that to my son the other day
Along with a sirened emergency vehicle passing, to which Eric said "he'll not sell many ice cream going that fast"
The Ice-cream van gag is such a great dad joke - i pulled it on my kids once and they just laughed like drains.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I briefed mine that after school return in September that all ice cream production was sent to Australia (for their summer) until May the next year and so none available to eat.
Went badly wrong when they joined my in supermarket shop and found ice dream on sale the ruse lasted about 5 seasons though.
@kitenski, I'm not convinced that's what DotM is referring to, as the effect can be seen at slow speeds as well ... or maybe it is? D?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Question for the technique nerds. What's that little bump called at the end of a fully completed edged turn ( I won't say fully carved lest the ghost of @weathercam pops up demanding proof via Carv stats#) that pops you effortlessly into the opposite turn?
And then how do you go about deliberately creating it rather than it happening a a result of other shizzle? By which I mean it just seems to happen.
#Actually related question for the Carv nerds. How does Carv score you for a perfectly drifted turn where you don't really engage the edge but again effortlessly reposition. To me it's one of the most satisfying feelings in groomer skiing on the work smarter rather than harder basis plus the momentary feeling of weightlessness.
Ron le Masters calls it the "virtual mogul" in one of his books. I think it's just a function of your CoM going down the fall line as the skis carve across the fall line and this building up pressure in the tails which you can release when you flatten the skis
After all it is free
After all it is free
@jedster, that sounds plausible, although it’s a lot of pressure in SL skis to get one airborne
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@jedster, I think this Video describes what you are talking about - though he says it's about managing pressure and getting early edge contact:
@Dave of the Marmottes, its called "a can of worms" and you've just opened it!
Is it before you pat the small child on the head but before you threatened to beat them with your pole? (you had to be there)
I've been pretty good this season - no small children have been threatened to be beaten yet. If you do it right you can still do the bump while grooming the imaginary child with you (old) inside hand.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I think it is something to do with energy in the ski as its easiest to get with SL skis and almost impossible with reverde cambered monsters.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
It's been so long since I was on skis, I don't know. However I think snowboard experience may had some validity as it's the same physics when all's said and done.
With a good snowboard, you get a "rebound" on hardpack when you edge hard. Glass fibre boards are better at it than metal boards; in fact the main disadvantage of metal (eg Kessler race) boards is that they don't deliver that old skool kick. Some new boards (eg Hometown Hero[1]) have glass and carbon which shifts the balance between damping and "rebound" in the correct direction - this board kicks back, not as aggressively as an old school glass WC race board, but pretty well, I don't use my Kessler any more... I like the board to have a bit of rebound, especially if it's also damped.
How to deliberately create it? Bang your mass down into the board as hard as you can and hang on for what comes next. Works on my Hero. With old glass boards, I'd not have to think about it when I was feeing strong, but when tired I'd really have to force the aggression to make me slam into the turn.... to get the rebound. I even have one board which only works that way - it's hard work when I'm tired.
--
1. Fully disclosure, Burton paid for my Hometown Hero, but it still is the best board I ever rode. So far,
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
phil_w wrote:
It's been so long since I was on skis, I don't know. However I think snowboard experience may had some validity as it's the same physics when all's said and done.
With a good snowboard, you get a "rebound" on hardpack when you edge hard. Glass fibre boards are better at it than metal boards; in fact the main disadvantage of metal (eg Kessler race) boards is that they don't deliver that old skool kick. Some new boards (eg Hometown Hero[1]) have glass and carbon which shifts the balance between damping and "rebound" in the correct direction - this board kicks back, not as aggressively as an old school glass WC race board, but pretty well, I don't use my Kessler any more... I like the board to have a bit of rebound, especially if it's also damped.
How to deliberately create it? Bang your mass down into the board as hard as you can and hang on for what comes next. Works on my Hero. With old glass boards, I'd not have to think about it when I was feeing strong, but when tired I'd really have to force the aggression to make me slam into the turn.... to get the rebound. I even have one board which only works that way - it's hard work when I'm tired.
--
1. Fully disclosure, Burton paid for my Hometown Hero, but it still is the best board I ever rode. So far,
yes - that sounds like the equivalent of what I'm talking about on skis.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
under a new name wrote:
@jedster, that sounds plausible, although it’s a lot of pressure in SL skis to get one airborne
I don't know about that. If I'm carving short cross under turns I definitely need to manage the pressure to AVOID being pinged out of the turn when I release the edges. What I aim to do is just use the unweighting enough to steer the skis a little before picking up the new outside edge as it kisses back down on the snow.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Old Fartbag wrote:
@jedster, I think this Video describes what you are talking about - though he says it's about managing pressure and getting early edge contact:
Excuse a little fatherly pride here but when my son was about thirteen we stopped beside the piste and he said "Dad, when I'm carving short turns should it feel a bit like I'm skiing moguls?".
Considering he'd never had any race training I thought it showed a pretty remarkable awareness of what waas going on with his skiing. Plus of course 90% of skiers you see will never generate those forces anyway.
It's an area that even the most researched has difficulty with in relation to exactly how the finished product is going to perform. For that feel and speed of response It's far more experimental than exact in specifying layup etc. When a manufacturer zones into a really good product and continues to manufacturer that product it can often build a substantial reputation, then they tweak it to supposedly make improvements and move it away from why it was so intrinsically good in the first place. Raw numbers often can't fully describe what the rider/ skier feels.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Just watched @Old Fartbags little video. Yeah, its interesting and i'm confused - and this is the non-skier talking - are you skiers not doing this all the time anyway?
I won't say its snowboarding 101, but i would say it is kind of 102... like once the stabilizers are ready to come off you kinda have to or you just edge catching and fall over all the time.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Richard_Sideways wrote:
Just watched @Old Fartbags little video. Yeah, its interesting and i'm confused - and this is the non-skier talking - are you skiers not doing this all the time anyway?
I won't say its snowboarding 101, but i would say it is kind of 102... like once the stabilizers are ready to come off you kinda have to or you just edge catching and fall over all the time.
Quick answer - Not necessarily.
When working on Carving - I think you ride the ski edges without introducing rotary movements. You can twist/steer/carve/edge/skid and actively pressure your skis....and blend the various skills depending on the conditions and your skill level.
Pure carving is not something the average skier can do, except on easier slopes.
I'd say the same, in that many casual recreational skiers don't get that far into control, usually when it surprises them it's time to deploy the catch-all phrase "I caught an edge" to get out of explaining the crash
Certainly I feel it build in my toe side turn on a board as muscle and boots/binding have far more cantilever to work with than heel side. But it's the same edge analogy for both ski and board I feel. That's in the development of forces as it compresses you more to eventually let it release and rebound over to opposite edge..
To get my group of skiers to find that feeling, if a real ridge can be found like gentle blend edge of piste along flag line and sometimes a line of angle change a piste basher has left down the slope, then traversing that line all the way down starts to give felling to getting the skis more dynamic in their turn transition. Not so much technique, but with the ridge giving release to ski ends , then the feeling of more dynamic turn starts to safely be implanted into approach.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
Pure carving is not something the average skier can do, except on easier slopes.
and even then often not the whole turn. Not that instant, clean, edge change.
Just watched @Old Fartbags little video. Yeah, its interesting and i'm confused - and this is the non-skier talking - are you skiers not doing this all the time anyway?
I won't say its snowboarding 101, but i would say it is kind of 102... like once the stabilizers are ready to come off you kinda have to or you just edge catching and fall over all the time.
The noise that most snowboarders make does not suggest they are all pure carving!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@jedster, too true
After all it is free
After all it is free
The bump..I always thought it happened because you are pressuring the ski (or board) through the turn, at the end of the turn you release the pressure in order to change direction which, due to the camber and sidecut, gives you a bit of a kick due to the release of pressure.
I just wish I could do it at will!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jedster, Scrunch, Scrape, Scrunch. Sounds like most of my ‘carving’…
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
just as the radius is finishing, the mass is loaded to then accept the "recoil" and flick it easily in the opposite direction.
(you had to be there)
