 Poster: A snowHead
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Today's "in principle" conundrum - can you get a ski that is great on icy pistes (well at the better end if the spectrum) and that are fun and playful and can be fun in moguls and generally messing about on the edge or on a lazy day?
If you have any specific suggestions, it's a tall order,, but 158cm tall (me not ski) and 50kg pushing advanced except I'm %@&* on anything vaguely icy, but can tackle steep off piste couloirs without looking too much of a numpty and muddle my way through moguls. I have 156cm rockered 100mm babies that were a total laugh in japan, so looking for a daily driver when not on pow skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@bitoffluff, Take a look at Faction Dancer range. They are a hard charging piste ski but playful at the same time coming from their freestyle heritage. The X series (1.0X, 2.0x etc) are the female version but exactly the same ski with a shorter version in the 150’s length. I have the Dancer 1.0 and the Dictator 2.0 (previous name for Dancer as marketing dept realised it’s no longer cool to be a dictator). The Agent series are the same ski with carbon fibre inside instead or metal which are more forgiving in soft snow.
https://uk.factionskis.com/collections/dancer-series
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@bitoffluff, ...good call on the Factions.
Playful and edge grip = the common description in reviews of the Elan Ripsticks - available in female specific versions (although they don't seem to notice that I am a man when I ski the womens' version) - the female versions have a slightly forward mount point (+1.5) and different widths and lengths (it just happens that the 94 at 162 is just in the sweet spot for me at 170 and 125 lbs) - see
https://www.skiessentials.com/2021-ski-test/skis/2021-elan-ripstick-94-w/
There's also an 88 waist version.
You might also consider the Volkl Mantra Junior - 86 waist in 148 or 158 - I use these and they have huge edge grip but are a light, playful ski (Warden or Tyrolia Attack bindings).
Finally....very well reviewed are the Line Blade W - 153 for you I think - very well reviewed alternatives to the above.
For massive edge grip but a ski which needs to be driven try the Volkl Kenja - 90 waist but pretty hard-charging ski....
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@bitoffluff, playful is generally taken to mean that you can break the edges free with relative ease and soft enough to not be a total workout to ski, with skis for firm pistes being pretty much the opposite so it's a tricky conundrum. However, your 100mm rocketed skis should fit the playful bill pretty well and 100mm is often considered an all mountain width these, granted you are smaller than, for ecample the blister gear reviewers who say things like this, could you not use this for playful days and a dedicated piste ski for firm days? After all, firm moguls aren't that much fun on any ski
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Some great leftfield suggests so far, will defo check those out - one shop suggested something with some metal underfoot and softer (what he called piste rockered) rockered tip / tail in a long length [longer than my pow skis to get hard snow contact length Blizzard black pearl 82 in 159) which sounded like a weird concoction, hence question to you guys. Anyone else fancy adding to the list to check out?
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@rambotion, ...interestingly the Mantra and the Ripstick achieve both grip and playfulness (breaking the edge free easily) but in very different ways.
The Ripsticks are Left and Right dedicated skis. The outside edge is heavily rockered so that breaking free to turn at will is easy. But the inside edge has lots of carbon reinforcement and a camber profile.
Playful and grippy....
The Mantras have the Volkl vicelike edge hold from their sidewall form - but then the 2018s were banana skis - full rocker - and the 2019-on were basically flat. Again, they are crazy loose when you want them to be but get them onto a carving line and they rail round. I have some of the full rocker and theoretically they should not grip on ice at all - except they do - tenaciously.
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Always curious about these descriptions - I mean does anyone make a ski that doesn't have good edge grip... why would you?
Playful always brings to mind a bit flimsy and noodley - good for not strong beginners but not much else.
Nobody skis icey pistes that well. I just try to survive them, looking vaguely stylish and in control. By definition grip is going to be limited.
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@valais2, I haven't skied the Mantra, although I own Volkl 100eights (which I have found to be fun in most conditions and carve nicely) and have skied on Shiros (which I wouldn't choose to ski on piste), both of which are softer, wider, and theoretically more playful than the Mantras. Below is what blister gear have to say about the 21/22 Mantra, basically they don't agree that it is playful:
https://blisterreview.com/gear-reviews/2021-2022-volkl-m6-mantra
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The M6 Mantra certainly wouldn’t be the first ski I’d grab if I knew it had snowed that day, but it does fine for what it is. As far as soft snow goes, the M6 Mantra feels comfortable when you can still feel a firm base underneath. Deeper than that, and it starts to get bogged down and difficult to turn (at least turn tightly). That’s what I’d say about most ~95mm-wide skis, but there are certainly better-floating, more maneuverable options around this width if you want to make the most of soft-snow days on your all-mountain ski. But especially if you like to make bigger turns when the snow is soft and don’t need a super surfy, loose ski, the M6 Mantra performs well enough to still be lots of fun in up to about 6–8” / 15–20 cm of fresh snow.
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It makes sense that a full rocker ski can over good edge hold as long as the shape is consistent and not extreme as it is not stopping you engaging the full length of the ski, it is skis that have partial rocker that are going to struggle with edge hold as if the cambered bit of the ski is engaged with the snow, the rockered section probably won't be due to the change in profile.
Basically, a ski that excels in firm snow speed at high speed 'directional' isn't going to be the best at moderate speeds in soft snow 'playful' and you've got to pick where on that sliding scale suits you
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@rambotion, ah…you are talked about the adult Mantra, the M6, and the review is talking about that ski too. The junior mantra which I ski and have had great experience with is a different kettle of fish, with all wood sidewall construction and no metal. Note that the OP is 158 tall 50 kg. This would make the adult mantra a poor choice since it’s a heavy metalled thing. But the junior - particularly the 2018 full rockered one - would be worth trying for her.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@bitoffluff, I've just spent two days at the SIGB test, basically testing what you're after, All Mountain biased towards piste performance.
Blackcrows Mirus 178 87
Atomic Redster Q9 84 173
Élan Wingman 178 86
Nordica Steadfast 84 174
Head Supershape e-titan 177 84
Rossi Hero Elite LT TI 176 71
Salomon Stance 84 M12 177
Dynastar M-Cross 88 176
Blizzard Rustler 9 96 180
Volkl Kendo 177 88
Scott Pure Free 90 177
Fischer RC One GT 173 82
More on this thread which is just below or near to this one https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=5078129#5078129
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My daughters are probably a similar size and they both ski the Volkl mantra junior. They love it playful and poppy but they can still make it carve easily and we were out in 3 valleys over Christmas into new year and they had no problems on very icy slopes, including the carnage of an ice rink into 1550. Looks like a really fun ski
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@Rich D, ….exactly what I find with the Junior Mantra….
…and I was holding an edge nicely on the boilerplate black down to the chair in Vercorin…a slope which sees most people sliding sideways with a look of panic on their faces….
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Nobody skis icey pistes that well.
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Errr, excuse me. Many people do. Good edges, good angulation ... and that's even before we get to racing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, ….yep
I had a weird bit of revelatory instruction from ValaisGrom2 at Easter. Notably, he does short turns down ice. No one knows how he does it, but he finds grip. His coaches look on him with envy. There’s just something about the boy. Only two people were doing anything other than going sideways on the ice down from the Restaurant at Leysin a couple of Christmas’ ago - ValaisGrom2 and a guy on … touring skis(!). Instructors were going sideways, youths were going sideways, I was going sideways. My son and Touring Guy found grip. My son said to me - ‘…stop looking down when you are on ice, looking down screws up your balance and grip…’. He was right. I started looking at where I wanted to go, not at why my skis were sliding and …. Bang….more grip. Interesting….as you say, good edges and angulation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Layne wrote: |
| Always curious about these descriptions - I mean does anyone make a ski that doesn't have good edge grip... why would you? |
My 122mm powder skis have dire edge grip - but why would they, they're not designed for it!
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Playful always brings to mind a bit flimsy and noodley - good for not strong beginners but not much else.
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Couldn't be further from what I imagine but I guess it's different for everyone! Playful is a quick turning ski with good pop that makes you smile and can handle a bunch of "typical" piste and side piste conditions. Carves a nice turn on the piste but can also deal with a bit of crud and a few bumps. A flimsy, noodley ski that I overwhelmed and had to nurse through turns would be about as far from playful as I could imagine.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 27-01-23 12:19; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@valais2, Your boy will make an excellent instructor! He is quite right. If you get all the basics right, and have good equipment, you can find grip on ice. How do you think the World Cup racers do it? lol Seriously, where it goes wrong is in the head. We all see/feel ice and immediately tense up, try and avoid the fall line, start getting a bit back, all driven by the fear. And we start looking down almost at our feet in a desperate attempt to find an "easy" spot to turn, something else that we don't do any other time (or at least shouldn't!). Keep your head and ski with your feet is the best advice, by which I mean rely on your natural balance and the automatic adjustments you make based on input from your feet. And for heavens sake seek the fall line rather than avoid it. In any (good) turn there is a moment where the skis are flat, seek this "floaty" moment and all will be good, try and avoid it (which we all do on ice!) and it will go wrong.
Best drill I can suggest is a variation of falling leaf. Side slip forward, then backwards, then commit to an aggressive short turn. Repeat until comfortable. Then follow the side slip with 2 short turns. Repeat until comfortable. And so on. You will find you move more aggressively into the fall line, your skis seem to come around of their own volition, and the fear dissipates as you are only making one turn at a time while mostly relying on your safety net of side slipping.
Can I get a lesson from the boy sometime???? Sounds like he has the wisdom of youth!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ah…..Dashed….Man With Wide Planks speak much truth….good take from you.
Grippy … a ski which grips. Simple.
Playful … much disagreement.
I like your definition: a quick turning ski with good pop that makes you smile. Carves a nice turn on the piste but can also deal with a bit of crud and a few bumps. A flimsy noodly ski…about as far from playful as I could imagine.
Yep….bang on. The 2018 youth Mantras I have played with these past 12 months have been a bit of an eye opener, and I can speak from experience of using them in all conditions, not on the basis of speculation which is a bit embedded in some of the posts above. They have no metal in them and yet are not noodly. They are 158 and 86 wide, and have FULL rocker. They do more than deal with a bit of crud, I have described them as being like ‘boats on waves on the water’ - they just ride smoothly up and over everything. Just great. Then, and this was a big surprise, they have edge grip. Oodles of it. Set them on edge with good angulation, and they track ice like Very Grippy Things. And agility? Massive. Spin them on a bump, smear them on a slope, just so easy to initiate a turn. Er…..playful.
The ValaisGrom and I bumped into some of the Freeride Boys a couple of Easters back, and they asked us to join them for the day. This meant blasting at warp speed down empty cruddy pistes, with Many Excursions onto chopped ramps and crud fields to the side (and yes, usually air-born back onto the piste). The day saw hard pack, corduroy, chop, crud, slush, puddles and frozen death chop. And they were on full rocker skis. No absence of grip or precision, but of course they are top experts (even though their kit is rather smelly - quote ValaisGrom2).
So…there we have it. Grippy and playful. Not a contradiction at all, depending on the quality of the designer and factory. Well done Volkl.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 28-01-23 9:58; edited 1 time in total
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@zikomo, …er he never fails to surprise me…always improving, always gently pushing the envelope rather than than crashing through it, always finding a new little insight to pass one..and indeed now 17, but with literally 15 years of experience at the front end...
…and that’s a great drill….many thanks…will put into practice the moment I get back on the hill…and have some nice new Elans and Volkls to play with whilst doing it…and some decent snow cover to stop the endless base divots of Christmas…
…he’s aiming for a season of instructing 23-24 after A levels….
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
We all see/feel ice and immediately tense up, try and avoid the fall line, start getting a bit back, all driven by the fear
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@zikomo, @valais2, I am going to presume you didn't learn to ski in Scotland?  (but serious point, there can be a lot of ice around, you kind of learn to love it).
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@under a new name, …you intuited correctly…after strong signals from friends, I steered clear of (i) possibly taking more time to get on the hill in Scotland than to the Alps; (ii) definitely being very cold and wet; (iii) spending more time on frozen heather than snow; (iii) spending more time in windy clag than sunshine. Other than that, Scottish skiing sounds great….
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@under a new name, Yup I am a Scottish skier. Have had a few days this year, including on heather and ice. All part of the fun. I remember skiing the east coast in the US, locals and instructors were fascinated with how my kids dealt with the boilerplate (especially at the top of lifts). They just could not get over how my kids essentially ignored it, and were surprised when anyone mentioned how icy it was. Don't think they had ever seen that from non-locals! Nowadays I prefer it steep and deep, when restricted to the pistes though I prefer hardback. My wife is the same, she is an ex-racer with a ruptured ACL - give her what most people call "ice" and she is happy as Larry, give her soft, bumpy, slushy spring snow and she is not so happy.
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@zikomo, The americans version of ice is lovely groomed hardpack to Scottish skiers!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@kitenski, Not on the east coast - they get proper boilerplate!
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@zikomo, is it blue and see through like Scottish ice 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@kitenski, that’s the thing….can you see through the clear blue to the heather below?….
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@zikomo, …yes can identify with the ruptured ACL…mine swells hugely in spring snow but does she not get problems from vibration on heavily iced pistes? Mine swells with that too….
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@valais2, She only seems to suffer from the vibration when the has to side-slip. But she does have a different level of ability to carve what most would consider ice. As does my daughter. A completely different level to me for sure, and to the boys. And I would consider myself pretty capable! It's the race training, comes completely naturally to both of them.
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You know it makes sense.
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Elan ripstick 88.
on the light side but well-built, good offpiste and good edge grip.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@kitenski, It's a thing on the east coast. Trust me!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Ionizingskin, ....yep another vote for the Ripsticks (in 88 or 94). My new pair of Ripsticks arrived last night (thanks Zoe) and will be mounted with Attack 13s later today. The reviews of the Ripsticks all say
PLAYFUL
And
GRIPPY
...which does seem to meet the OP’s spec. And the Womens’ range comes in lengths which will meet the OP’s weight and height, which is good. Many of the skis mentioned in posts here are male skis which do not come in weight or height spec which matches the OP’s.
For the 88 Ripsticks I would recommend MNC Warden bindings. They need a skier to understand the toe height adjustment but that’s a simple thing. The Attack 13 are slightly superior bindings in my opinion but are a bit wide for 88 waist skis...not impossibly so and they will ‘go’ but the Wardens seem a better match. But for the 94 waist Ripsticks, the Tyrolia Attack 13s with 95mm brake seem a very good combination - low height, great width to the afd, light and very consistent release.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 28-01-23 10:08; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmmm, Mrs U tours on Ripstick 88s and while they do all that pretty well she does prefer her Mantras for hardpacked pistes. But she's quite aggressive ...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, ...interesting...which Mantra is she using? Youth? Youth 2018 full rocker? 2019/22 Youth Flat? Mantra M5? Mantra M6? Is she taller/shorter heavier/lighter than the OP?
I really like the consistency and quality of Volkl, even the Chinese-built skis seem to be subject to good QC. They seldom produce a dud, even if they are a bit unadventurous (I wish they had stuck with the full rocker Youth Mantra for example)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@valais2, adult 2016-17 model, 177cms, she's ~163cms tall and, errrr, somewhere around 55kgs (flees and hides)~. That year had mild early rise and tail (not quite rocker iirc). When I say "quite aggressive" she (in the 90s) hung out with the Spanish national team and did a lot of skiing with them.
I found those Mantras a bit nervous/skittish vs my Bonafides, but anythings nervous vs the Bonafides (GS+ race skis and the old Stockli DP Pros excepted). When we bought them the only comparable Ripstick was the original 96 (iirc) which was a very different ski from the current lineup.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, Ah...another hard charger...like Zikomo’s partner.
Yep....I think you two are very experienced, very high skill level by the sound of it....which is nice.
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| valais2 wrote: |
The Ripsticks are Left and Right dedicated skis. The outside edge is heavily rockered so that breaking free to turn at will is easy. But the inside edge has lots of carbon reinforcement and a camber profile.
Playful and grippy.... |
This is interesting. I'm a bit skeptical of “handed” skis, but that makes sense. A couple of years ago, in the before times, I did a day course that was partnered with Elan and we had some of their skis to try. I don't remember anything in particular from the main part of the day, so I was either on the “wrong” skis for me, or they were noodly rubbish, but there was about an hour spare at the end before the lift shut when I borrowed an extra couple of pairs for a quick top-to-bottom run. One was from the (men's) slalom range, vivid green, but short enough for me (probably 145cm) so I didn't worry too much. They were heavier than a black hole, and I didn't have enough power to work them properly. The other was the women's Insomnia 14 (or maybe 16, can't remember). Same length as the SL, so I would generally consider that a bit short and go up a size, but otherwise the grip and manoeuvrability was superb. They also looked like a solid, quality ski when racked up with the rest of the range. I'd definitely be tempted if I saw them at a good price, though I would like another test if I can find one.
I didn't try the Ripsticks, and the conditions weren't really optimal for that type of ski, but if they ski anything like the Insomnia, I can imagine they would be quite good. Shame about the marketing – they seem to think that women are attracted to pink things 
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Oh let me mention the
Black Crows Serpo
which I have, love and would descrive exactly as "grippy yet playful. The Serpo has a fair amount of low slung Rocker, long effective edge once laid over, medium stiffness- and two sheets of metal. It will turn on a dime and is easily steered by subtle foot movements even at low speeds (read: Skiing with Kids) and will be super dependable and allow you to carve high angle turns. I only slide out on sheer ice, when exactly everyone does. Highly recommended. Did I mention they are fun in bumps and steeps? They have become my go-to resort ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| danbre2022 wrote: |
Oh let me mention the
Black Crows Serpo
which I have, love and would descrive exactly as "grippy yet playful. The Serpo has a fair amount of low slung Rocker, long effective edge once laid over, medium stiffness- and two sheets of metal. It will turn on a dime and is easily steered by subtle foot movements even at low speeds (read: Skiing with Kids) and will be super dependable and allow you to carve high angle turns. I only slide out on sheer ice, when exactly everyone does. Highly recommended. Did I mention they are fun in bumps and steeps? They have become my go-to resort ski. |
They look good, and they've relieved the metal from centre line going out to ends it seems. Black Crows seem to make some interesting construction and layup but I've yet to try any. Always appear well made when I've looked at them.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| valais2 wrote: |
The Ripsticks are Left and Right dedicated skis. The outside edge is heavily rockered so that breaking free to turn at will is easy. But the inside edge has lots of carbon reinforcement and a camber profile.
Playful and grippy.... |
This is interesting. I'm a bit skeptical of “handed” skis, but that makes sense. A couple of years ago, in the before times, I did a day course that was partnered with Elan and we had some of their skis to try. I don't remember anything in particular from the main part of the day, so I was either on the “wrong” skis for me, or they were noodly rubbish, but there was about an hour spare at the end before the lift shut when I borrowed an extra couple of pairs for a quick top-to-bottom run. One was from the (men's) slalom range, vivid green, but short enough for me (probably 145cm) so I didn't worry too much. They were heavier than a black hole, and I didn't have enough power to work them properly. The other was the women's Insomnia 14 (or maybe 16, can't remember). Same length as the SL, so I would generally consider that a bit short and go up a size, but otherwise the grip and manoeuvrability was superb. They also looked like a solid, quality ski when racked up with the rest of the range. I'd definitely be tempted if I saw them at a good price, though I would like another test if I can find one.
I didn't try the Ripsticks, and the conditions weren't really optimal for that type of ski, but if they ski anything like the Insomnia, I can imagine they would be quite good. Shame about the marketing – they seem to think that women are attracted to pink things |
I'm intrigued as to how much can be packed into such a thin structure as a ski form. Asymmetric design does seem valid to me and bought a pair in another brand with this feature. That side bias of additional carbon layer to emphasize the geometry change and support the difference under load looks very interesting too. It’s an area that has a lot of thought going into in composites generally to tailor specific torsion and spring responses. Its not easy though to fully predict, but once into that bullseye through experimental structure iteration can give very high performance.
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