Skiing on closed pistes

A snowHead

Is skiing on a closed piste the same as skiing off piste, and if you are with a guide then covered by guided off piste insurance ?

The rationale being that if it's not an open piste then it is off piste.

Thanks

A snowHead

@rayscoops, I was about to say something else, but on second thoughts ... I don't think it's "off piste" as it's actively closed for reasons perhaps known only to the operating agency. I.e. in Chamonix, it's a piste managed and operated by the CdMB, and if they decide it's closed, that's their decision. It doesn't magically become a free for all. And I suspect that the liabilities involved could be somewhat concerning should anything untoward happen.

But all supposition.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Don’t think your travel insurance will agree with your thinking. Without looking it up pretty sure mine forbids skiing on closed piste.

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I would say it's not off piste, it's a closed area. And you would not be insured.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@rayscoops, Policies vary - read yours.

Typical wording:

As long as you aren't skiing against local authority advice, or against the advice of resort management, you will be covered for off-piste skiing

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@rayscoops, depends on your policy some specifically say if you are skiing against local advice, in which case not covered IMHO.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I agree with @under a new name,

Theres probably a good reason its closed and likely safety rather than "they're just saving it" as people often say. I've been stopped by the Caribineri and made to walk back up once, when I missed the closed sign (there'd been a caution sign there all week). It was only 100m cutting a corner on a red run and I was 1/2 way over. I hadn't noticed pisteurs were about to release snow/ice boulders from the blue run edge above.

I've skied with a few off-piste instructors who've avoided closed pistes. Also a lot of insurance includes off-piste but states "...except against resort advice..." or words to that effect and hard to argue "closed" isn't.

Now if its normally a piste but hasn't been prepared or marked that may be a different matter.

After all it is free

In my view skiing a closed piste is definitely skiing against local advice and many policies make that stipulation. Arguably you won't be covered off piste with a guide in a high avalanche warning situation, either. Policies vary and it's hard to get any sensible definition. Dog Tag told me you would not be covered off piste if there was ANY level of avalanche warning! Shocked

@rayscoops, difficult one. If closed because it is considered dangerous throughout the length then I’d be worried.

If closed due to a known issue at the top but the rest is okay. IE only the top because it is the only way there then should be fine.

This was the case with me on a guide day at Val Thorens where piste was closed at the top because of a rocky bit and the guide specifically said since it is closed it is considered off piste.

Then I got wiped out by a bloke coming from behind with his family. He had went under the barrier and was going too fast to stop as I exited the piste (off piste) to continue the guided day.

Thankfully the guide (on EOSB) was able to put him in his s place in “robust French “.

Mind you, unlike some on here I’m not an expert on everything. I’d ask your insurance.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

It depends. Here in St Anton, apart from the usual reasons, pistes are sometimes closed because the exiting lift has been closed.

Case in point: Osthang Einfarht is roped off when Osthangbahn has been closed due a storm. Ski patrol is fine with you skiing the “closed” piste (have done runs with them). The catch is that you then have to exit through the trees in Zwischen or under the gondola cables. The former is off piste, while the latter is a marked route.

I have no idea how all that would be viewed by an insurance company.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

In France, I think it's worth taking the local insurance, which is cheap as chips (cheaper given the price of a plate of chips) and can help avoid too many questions about where you got picked up from!! I've skied closed pistes with an instructor but he did read us the riot act about doing it without specific local advice.

snow reports

In North America, if something's closed you should not be on it
It's different from "off piste", which is obviously "open" unless otherwise marked (and isn't really a useful concept there).

The "Alpine responsibility code" is clear 8. Keep off closed trails and obey area closures.

If your guide ignores that (!) and kicks something down on legitimate resort users...
I doubt you could insure for what's to come for those responsible.

If you were in a closed area at slide risk, then rescue from there could be risky, so
although I'm not aware of a specific incident like that, if that happened, you'd need a lot of insurance.

The ski patrol does have some discretion, but I doubt insurance companies have the same.

You know it makes sense.

For my situation I just checked my insurance (similar to most policies) and it says 'You are not covered when skiing against local authority warning or advice.'

I am pretty sure that the closing of a piste and being forbidden from using a closed piste by the Ski Company (T&Cs of my ski pass) would be considered as 'skiing against local authority warning or advice.'

It's just my opinion, but I doubt I am insured on a closed piste whether I am with a guide or not and am not covered by the Lift Company for mountain rescue off a closed piste as stated in the lift pass T&Cs

Surprised any instructor or guide would take people down closed pistes as it opens up all sorts of liabilities and conflicts.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@rayscoops, what prompted the question?

A snowHead

If a piste hasn't been open since the season commenced with no side poles is it a closed piste?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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The answer to the original question is no, skiing a closed piste is not the same as skiing off piste. Not at all. No idea about coverage, but I'd bet heavily that its no also.

@phil_w is correct about North America and I'd add that they'll try to catch you and pull your ticket. In egregious cases folks get arrested. Any guide or instructor taking clients into a closed area should lose their credentials.

Example: you've checked, and the snowpack is safe in your judgement. So you enter the closed area, not knowing that the ski patrol is bombing the ridge above you. Oops.

Closed areas often look tempting. Don't do it.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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A guide we had in Fernie once said that tracks are not a sign of intelligent life. Always stuck with me, just because someone else has ducked a rope doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

As one off piste instructor explained to me (in France) if I lead you and you have an accident off piste (eg avalanche) I will be judged in court on the evidence of my peers and professionals. If I take you down a closed piste and you have an accident, I am going to Jail.

Other things to consider - piste bashers on wire tows ready to garotte you, avalanche blasting, etc etc.

@viv, a piste is either closed or open and I am talking about deliberately entering a piste that you know to be closer, with a big banner across the entrance that says closed.

I think accidentally stumbling on to a badly marked closed piste while skiing off piste would be strong mitigating circumstances, but not really what I am asking.

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Whether true or not, a guide mentioned last week that Chamonix have, to an extent, given up closing runs, as everyone ignores the ropes. So, when feasible, they just close the feeder lifts instead.

Obvs this isn’t always possible, but, for instance, if they want to close off the Charlanon side off Cornu, usefully there’s a pisteurs hut just by the ropes and signs Twisted Evil

On following tracks, I have heard tales of bodies being found at the bottom of cliffs having followed paragliders tracks Shocked

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I have always regretted ignoring the "closed piste" advice and ducking the ropes ... I remember doing 6 or so km of the road at the bottom of the Sarenne on sheet ice after following an ESF instructor (not mine) under the rope, thinking that made it ok.

snow reports

The Harakiri in Mayrhofen was closed the entire week we were there a week ago, the run was only marginally quieter than normal with people going round the side of the barriers. It was in perfect condition.

I should have asked why it was closed.

I do get the feeling they were trying to save the snow for the weekend.

You know it makes sense.

If you are in France and you have the optional inssurance with your lift pass it DOES NOT cover you for closed pistes. Being rescued on a closed piste is the same cost as being rescued off piste, €780 as opposed to €235/€395 in Megeve - tarrifs are to do with what the town charges you not to do with the ski patrol who are providing the rescue service!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Case in point

https://www.facebook.com/reel/873517807187339/?app=fbl

A snowHead

A snowHead

@rayscoops, Hi.

One reason pistes can be closed is because they are threatened by avalanche prone slopes above them a dreadful example of this was in 2016 when a French teacher took a group of kids down the closed Bellcombe piste in les Deuxs Alpes. Two of the kids died- as did a Ukrainian adult not with that group- he was charged with manslaughter. I was rather horrified when my 18 year old son told me he had skied down this during his Uni ski trip in early December- he cheerfully told me that he and his friends had been up the lift above it and it had looked fine. They had assumed that the only reason it might be closed would be poor snow cover. There was loads of snow- it had been dumping. I did very well in not shouting at him. I explained all this and sent him the links to a few of the newspaper reports.

Now that is one example only. I've skied closed pistes- notably Variant Hotel in Argentiere which ends up as a root and rock fest. But I may well have been very foolish. I think Santons in Val also gets closed due to avalanche risk as well as a couple of other home runs there.

As pam says- closed = skiing against local advice. But, I have also skied closed pistes with a number of guides, now I suspect (hope) that that is a very different matter.

The other nightmare would be that the slope / piste or nearby slope threatens other pistes below.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As others say ...

Usually closed for good reason...racing prep, avi, hazard, construction work, no snow, etc
Almost certainly invalidates insurance.

Only time I did was very much against my judgement. I knew there was no avi risk. I dodged under the rope and the piste was fine as far as the eye could see. Only I couldn’t see around the corner at the bottom. After the corner, the whole piste was covered in ice balls the size of footballs, with huge pits and holes everywhere. It being a low cover Easter, there was no side access, just grass. Walk of shame.

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When working (i.e. guiding) I (almost) always ask the pisteurs before riding a closed run. This is almost always because I want to use a short section of the top of a piste to access an off-piste area, or to ride an off-piste area which includes a closed itinerary. They are generally bemused by my asking but almost invariably happy for me to do so. I work on the basis that this over-rides the "against local advice" clause. As we've now taken highly personalised local advice. An exception might be if I ride a long off-piste descent, then end up on a short section of a closed run on the way back to resort. In this case, I would be relying on my own judgement and experience as to why the piste is closed and if it's safe to use it. Often, as above, pistes are closed because they are exposed to avalanche risk from above which can't easily be controlled (e.g. Santons or Piste L in Val d'Isere). Re-joining the piste a long way beyond the exposed section and run-out zone is a reasonable decision to make.

In Sainte Foy at least, pisteurs are generally happy enough for guided or obviously properly-equipped groups to ride itineraries before they're officially open, but it's always polite to ask. By the time they're officially open, they're invariably obliterated mogul fields.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

It's unwise to ski closed pistes, do you know better than the ski area personnel?

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One thing to note is that I've seen closed pistes that have just one small banner in the middle and others where it is fully netted off.

Also you sometimes see signs "plaque de terre" or "expert skiers only" or "closed for competition".

They could be clearer.

Most times I wouldn't but fess up that I have occasionally.

I don't trust insurance companies to pay up at the best of times tbh.

But the simple answer of course is, it's not the same and don't do it.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Well I did ride a closed piste yesterday, knee deep powder in places, boot deep everywhere else. It's the first day this chair and area of the mountain has been open.

No risk, ridden this piste many times before, I could see all of it from the chair, no avalanche risk around it, no different to the adjacent open piste except it hadn't been pisted.

The beginning off the piste is the access to a big off piste area and the route back from the off piste area to the chair lift.

It was fantastic.

Maybe they will get round to bashing it soon.

After all it is free

Not much mention of whether with a guide or not ... I would expect that the guide is 'responsible' for making the local decision, and will know or have checked why a run was closed and whether it was safe or not. It's common for closed runs to be used for 'access' as mentioned above... In this case the guide should have assessed the risk, and assuming your insurance covers 'guided offpiste ' you should be ok.
I would expect you not to be covered in that situation if you had 'off piste not guided' insurance, as 'closed' not equal to ' offpiste ' for all the reasons given above.

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Sometimes a piste that is marked “closed” has been closed for some years, and nobody has any intention of opening it. In this case, it is off-piste, and should be treated as such.

Help!!

Skiing on closed pistes

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