 Poster: A snowHead
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I may not have phrased this correctly, but that is the point of what I'm trying to figure out.
Currently I have a pair of standard alpine boots (Salomon X-Pro) and a pair of lightweight touring boots (Tecnica Zero-G). My partner has alpine boots only (Salomon Energyzer). The bindings they fit are a mix of alpine rails (the type sold fitted to piste/AM skis), Marker F12 frames and Salomon Shifts. There is also a set with proper touring bindings, set up to fit the Zero-Gs, but they are not really relevant here.
Both pairs of alpine boots are going to be up for replacement maybe this season, or the next year or two, depending on how much use they get and how rich we're feeling. We were relative beginners when they were purchased, so they possibly ought to be stiffer, and the liners are packing out and getting a bit sloppy. I don't know how many days use they've had, but I'd guess a couple of hundred at least. They are not so old that I am concerned about plastic degradation, so there's no urgency here. I would be looking at a liner upgrade if I did not think that they had maybe served their purpose at this point.
I have noticed that there are some boots around that are more of a hybrid alpine, fitted with inserts for touring bindings so they can be used with the Shifts. If I was looking to get fitted with a pair of these, what am I asking for exactly? Are there any limitations I should be aware of? Will they fit all the bindings that we have? Anything they don't work with? (I'm thinking more about bindings that would normally be used with alpine boots, rather than touring). These boots are used probably 90% of the time, so any replacement needs to be durable and ideally, versatile.
This is all quite a long term plan. Eventually, the Marker F12s will be rotated out of use, and the piste/AM skis will be retired and replaced, but not just yet.
Ta very much.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Maybe it's just me but I am slightly confused by the question.
Maybe this helps: https://www.evo.com/guides/ski-boot-sole-binding-compatibility
From what I am reading you want the new boots to fit Alpine bindings (+ others) in which case you would need Alpine bindings (as per the evo chart).
Is that what you are asking?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Scarlet, freeride boots? There's a profusion of them on the market, usually with a grip walk sole (and probably swappable alpine sole blocks). So I think the question to your question is, will your alpine rail bindings take a grip walk sole? The shifts will take any sole (as long as it's got alpine lugs). I think most recent alpine bindings handle gripwalk. If the answer is yes, then your next thing to consider is the uphill/downhill bias. Generally, more articulation equals poorer downhill suspension and performance.
IIRC you're not the largest human on the planet so you can probably use one boot for everything (I.e. alpine and touring, perhaps apart from long tours). I certainly don't find I'm compromising too much on downhill performance (in exchange for ok uphill) in my Atomic Ultra XTDs. Larger, stronger, more kamikaze skiers might notice the difference.
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I think the standard advice applies - go to a proper boot fitter.
I picked up my current boots about 3 years ago now and asked about the new soles with respect to future proofing my boots and the advice then was to ignore the soles and still focus on the boots that fitted best. The move away from alpine soles if it's really happening at all seems to be happening at an evolutionary, rather than revolutionary pace and it will be a long time before you walk in to a hire shop to be told "We don't have any skis for alpine bindings any more". And on the other side rather than moving from alpine-only to X-only, Y-only or Z-only bindings seem to be shifting from alpine-only to alpine, or X, or Y, or Z.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry @Scarlet, but I think some of the responses are a bit dismissive of your enquiry!
The simple answer is a lot of new boots have the gripwalk sole, which has a different profile (turns up a bit at the toe) than alpine soles. This means they are only compatible with bindings that have adjustable anti-friction devices (the flat plastic bit) on the front of the binding.
To complicate it further, for many boots you can buy both types of sole so you can change the sole to fit your bindings of choice. But not all!
I think it unlikely that the bindings on your piste skis will accommodate the gripwalk sole. The Shift bindings will.
My advice is get the boot that fits you best and then deal with any binding compatibility questions. Boot fit that works for you trumps all.
Ask if I have not been clear enough or have confused you in any way!
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Grip walk soles require mnc compatible alpine bindings, normally not in rail systems. Lots of dual purpose boots around, bindings from skis prior to grip walk and mnc compatibility not likely to work with them and will need to be replaced.
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I will be seeing a proper boot fitter, don’t worry about that. I’ll probably go back to the guys who fitted my Zero-Gs, as apart from getting one liner remoulded, I’ve had no issues at all. However, I do like to go in with an idea of what I’m looking for. They will ask questions; I need to know the answers.
@ mgrolf, Freeride boots. Could be the thing. They don’t need to be one boot for everything in the sense that I have a proper touring setup and don’t need to totally replicate that. Downhill bias definitely. I could use the Zero-Gs more than I do, but they will just get destroyed. And they’re more fiddly and not insulated. They do what they do well, but I don’t want to use them every day. I would also rather be on alpine-release bindings most days, as I’m generally going down and not up. You are right though, I’m not very big.
As for the alpine/grip walk question. Dunno. Probably not. How do I find out? Is that the issue, that the binding needs to take Gripwalk? Or are there some boots that will fit?
Do some alpine bindings only take a straight-up alpine boot?
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@zikomo, thanks, that’s a good response. Sorry, there’s a bit of cross-posting going on here.
The issue that I was hoping to avoid was switching one pair of boots (or two, if we both get the same type) and having to swap out 4 pairs of skis!
Also, to complicate things further, I’m super sensitive to delta, to the point where, if I understand you correctly, I would have to adjust the AFD on the F12s right down to a similar position as my other touring boots require it, which basically renders them unusable for me  (@Spyderjon helpfully made me a plate to raise the front of the Shifts to mitigate the problem there, but those bindings are still an absolute b**tard to adjust between boots!)
The easiest thing would be new alpine boots, or Zipfit liners for the current ones, but I was hoping to put the Shifts to better use really.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Scarlet, if you want boots with the pin holes (tech inserts) for Shifts that are good onpiste with alpine skis, then I believe you are asking for a hybrid boot or a freeride touring boot ie
https://www.atomic.com/en-gb/shop-emea/product/hawx-prime-xtd-130-ct-gw-ae5027240.html#color=31604
This is what I've done, 2 pairs of skis, one set of bindings, one set of boots. Quiver killed so I ski Shifts on a piste ski!
You'll just need to be aware that some (older?) bindings won't work with these kind of boots due to the gripwalk sole
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@Scarlet, the right answer might be boots with the gripwalk sole, and the tech inserts. And you also buy an alpine sole for them. Switch soles depending on which skis you are using, IF spare alpine soles are available for your boots it is easy and quick to do.
The other option if a spare alpine sole is not available is to get a new binding that is multi-norm compatible for your skis. I had to do this for my daughter who now likes off-piste/side tours so has hybrid boots with gripwalk and tech inserts. But she was adamant she would not give up her race slalom skis for hard charging piste days, and alpine soles not available for her new boots. It was easy as Head do an MNC binding identical to her race binding so fitted the race plate. You might find the same that there is an MNC binding that fits your rail system.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Scarlet, IIRC the Look SPX bindings on my Dynastar Speedzone 12s can take alpine, grip walk and WTR. The AFD has two positions - up for alpine & gw, down for WTR. If this is right, it suggests that you might be OK, delta-wise, with a gw sole in a binding like this. Best to check with someone who knows though (like Spyderjon) because I only use the WTR setting. You'll still have issues with the shifts though, if you want to use them with both zero-g and new (gw) boots, because you'll need to crank the AFD up for gw and down for the zero-gs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Nice, I think we’re getting somewhere 
@kitenski, that makes total sense, and is the reason we’ve ended up with some less than obvious ski/binding combos. But we are where we are. How do you find the boots? Do they ride like an alpine boot? Will they last as long? Are they warm?
@zikomo, gotcha. I can at least keep the multiple sole thing in mind when I go to the shop. I had quite specific requirements when I got the touring boots which meant there weren’t many to choose from, but I got lucky with a good fit. I don’t think my feet are particularly extreme, and we get a fair range of boots available around here, so my chances are pretty good.
Are MNC bindings becoming more common on piste/AM skis then? I would probably be loathe to spend money changing bindings on those skis, as they are the oldest in the set and it would make probably make more sense to hold onto old boots until they die. However, I would still need a compatible binding on any replacement ski.
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@mgrolf, ok, I see. Jon will probably end up drilling any new skis, so we’ll inevitably spend several hours discussing them beforehand, don’t worry  I have a 6mm riser plate for the Shifts that sits under the toe section, if I want to use them with a boot that needs the AFD wound down. Currently they’re not in as I’m using alpine boots and tend to use my touring skis with the touring boots (they’re considerably lighter anyway), but they were made more as a future-proof option should I need to do that with new boots.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Scarlet, MNC bindings are becoming common almost the norm except for race skis. Looks like you are well on your way with a good understanding. Good luck!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| zikomo wrote: |
| @Scarlet, MNC bindings are becoming common almost the norm except for race skis..... |
GripWalk/alpine is the norm with only a handful of bindings being MNC.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ooh disagreement with the oracle. Controversial
@spyderjon, when you say gripwalk/alpine, do you mean as two separate binding types, or as one cross-compatible type? I assume you mean the former, but would you get many skinnier skis fitted with gripwalk bindings as standard? I’m really referring to the ones that come as a set, rather than buying in the flat, as I guess you can put pretty much anything on those if you can actually find any sold that way.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Scarlet, boots are great, can’t tell any difference in warmth, best think is they are about 1kg lighter per foot! I’m a reasonable skier and not found them wanting for piste performance.
Can’t comment on longevity, had them 3 seasons, 1st one was Covid and they got absolutely trashed scrambling over rocks in Glencoe but seemed to cope fine!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Scarlet, All GW bindings/AFD's are automatically alpine sole compatible as well so yes, cross compatible.
However, alpine bindings/AFD's are not automatically GW compatible. The only 'alpine sole only' bindings made these days are race bindings but there are a number of older alpine bindings that actually work fine with GW soles - it all depends if the binding AFD interfaces on the smooth panel on the GW boot sole and that the rubber grippy bit of the GW sole doesn't snag on any other part of the binding.
All the current rail systems on the market, as found on pretty much all piste skis, are GW/alpine sole compatible. There isn't a ski factory fitted rail system on the market that is MNC (Salomon/Atomic), AT (Head/Tyrolia) or ID (Marker) compatible, ie will take all the sole types of alpine, GW, AT and the now defunct WTR.
If you want a rail system that fits all sole lengths and sole profiles you have to use the flat mounted Demo versions of the Warden 11/13 MNC or the Attack2 AT bindings.
If you want a fixed position non-touring binding that fits all sole profiles then the only bindings available are the Warden 11/13 MNC, the STH2 MNC, the Attack 2 AT and the Griffon/Jester ID. The Squire 11 had, until last season, the ID toe but Marker in their stupidity changed it to GW thus severely reducing its versatility.
If you want a fixed position touring binding that fits all sole profiles then the choices are either the Shift or the Duke PT (both of which can only be 'skinned' with boots that have tech inserts) plus all of the older frame type bindings, ie F10, F12, F12 EPF, Baron, Duke, Guardian, Adrenalin and those god awful Fritschi frame bindings.
I think that covers it 
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@spyderjon, a topic you can get your teeth into then, eh?
So, have I got this right then, that the most versatile path to go down is probably swappable soles as discussed above, or GW soles as an alternative?
The rail bindings we have got are my Atomics which I think have an XT-10 from 2015, and the Red Stars which are Tyrolia Pro 12 something or other but I would probably need to take them apart to figure out. Ex-demo so not sure on the year, but could be slightly older.
If using the F12 with GW, does the AFD sit high like the alpine, or lower like something that wants to ruin my legs?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@spyderjon, @Scarlet, do swappable soles mean you’d need to adjust the toe height each time you changed the sole?
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@kitenski, I would expect so, but why would you need to? Alpine sole for alpine bindings, touring sole for touring bindings.
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@Scarlet, the interchangeable profile soles that some boot models have aren't actually designed to be regularly swapped so I'd caution against doing that as the screw threads will soon wear loose.
IIRC, the XT-10 is strictly alpine sole only but some of the old Tyrolia alpine AFD's are fine with GW but I'd need to see a side pic of the AFD to give a better opinion.
The F12 AFD will sit a bit lower with a GW sole but nowhere near the bottom like an AT sole.
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@Scarlet, I wasn't sure if it was a daily kind of swop thing or a one off? hence why I went one pair of bindings and quiver killers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@spyderjon, FFS! Why can't people make things out of proper materials that don't almost immediately fail?! So we're back to Gripwalk then. If I look for something that is GW with inserts, then that would give me a fairly good range of compatible bindings, except unfortunately the ones on my piste skis Oh well, I'll just have to buy new skis. Good to know most current rail bindings would work, as they are a useful thing to have sometimes.
@kitenski, I suspect my requirements are slightly different to yours, so don't worry too much. It could be a regular swap if conditions are changing (though last season and so far this one, piste skis have overwhelmingly been the ski of choice), so I get Jon's point.
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@Scarlet, It's simple, you need new piste skis, new touring skis (both with gripwalk compatible bindings) and new boots 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| ...those god awful Fritschi frame bindings. |
I didn't pick up on this last night, but I once had a rather excellent powder day severely curtailed (read: ruined) by one of these failing on someone half way down  Had to botch it together with whatever bits of ties we were carrying (he had nothing of use at all) and limp back to the car. I suspect what was left of the binding was somewhat older than the rider.
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