How bad is the early 2023 ski season in the Alps (in the overall scheme)?

A snowHead

Obviously, things ain't great just now in the Alps, but I'm wondering how unusual these early Jan conditions actually are?
Have we had a similar situation in the last 5 or 10 years?
Thanks.
N Neige
PS please delete if other threads covering the same topic.

A snowHead

The locals figure on 1 bad season in 3

A lot depends on what altitude you are at.

Val Thorens doesn't really have bad seasons, although it can have delayed starts.

A ski resort in the Jura may not open at all some years.

From memory, 2015 and 2016 were not great, we then have had quite a good run although a bad start often means an early end as the base isn't there.

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@davidof, was it 2015 where we really didn’t have any snow North Western French alpes till after new year’s week?

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There are masses of threads, @Neil Neige. It doesn't really make sense to talk about how things are in "The Alps"; it's a big place, and conditions vary a great deal between east and west and even between north and south. Interesting reading around the forum. Lots of sensible comments and observations and a fair few daft ones, on the lines of "we're doomed, it's all awful, never been like this before". There are also some folk who insist on telling us how much they enjoyed hopping from one slushy lump to the next, in the pouring rain.

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@under a new name, down here in the Valley 22nd December 2014 it was green, though from 2,000m there was snow, though leftovers from three weeks prior

And then the infamous SnowMagedon when my daughter was trying to get from here to Tignes on the 27th

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I think you have to separate out the long term trend (general warming, glaciers receding, more frequent and extreme weather events) with the usual year to year pot luck with the weather. We've skied a lot at the start and end of the season - TR links at top of this post - and we've had dodgy ones, meh/mid ones and great ones. And to be honest before that I've been in the core of the season and it's still pretty variable.

I must say I've not seen temps as high and as prolonged in December as this year (the avalanched mountainside's back to rock have been exceptional for the time of year in IME) but especially higher up there is still a good base and forecasts suggest before mid-Jan there could be some big weather changes. And then the conversation will move on - and it will just be another year of, well 'weather'.

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That looks tricky..... good picture to show the twits who say "there's no such thing as too much snow".

After all it is free

@Weathercam, must have been earlier then!

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I blame the yanks...somehow they've discovered a way to nick all our snow! Laughing

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Some webcams have a long archive so you can look at the same day for each year. The pano one at Les Houches goes back to November 2014 for example.

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Thanks for these thoughts!
Appreciate the issue is nuanced and there will always be snow way up high (was nice to see resort-level snow in the Zermatt webcam earlier today) but, altitude aside, I think it is a bit of an Alps-wide issue at the mo hence articles like this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64151166
One of my favourite resorts (Thollon) is closed completely, but it sounds like snow is on its way.
If memory serves, Scotland had a disastrous start to the season last year with virtually no skiing almost until Feb so good to see they've managed to open a few runs already, and great that the new chairlift has finally opened at Glen Coe. Hope to pay a visit this season, probably staying at Fort W - nice chance to also ski Nevis Range and have a crack at the adjacent parkrun!
Didn't realise some Jura resorts don't open at all some seasons but guess it's understandable given the altitude.

If we are talking about current conditions compared to the same time of year in an average year, I think it is:

- very poor in the northwest and far western French Alps (e.g. Portes du Soleil)
- poor low down in the interior ranges of the French northern Alps (e.g. lower parts of the 3 Valleys, lower parts of La Plagne, Maurienne...) and western Switzerland (e.g. Gstaad, Villars, Wengen / Grindelwald), but better at altitude (e.g. Verbier, Val Thorens, Val / Tignes, Arc 2000, higher parts of Alpe d'Huez, Les 2 Alpes)
- slightly below average in most of the rest of the Alps (Austria, Italy, eastern Switzerland, far west of southern French Alps), but helped by snowmaking
- average in the interior part of southern France (e.g. Isola 2000, Auron, Pra-Loup)
- above average in a very small area around Briançon in France (basically Serre Chevalier, Puy St Vincent, Pelvoux). And maybe some other localised spots?

If we are talking about the season as a whole so far, I think it started OK and has deteriorated since Christmas, either because of rain (NW Alps) or persistently high temperatures / not much new snow (everywhere else). But although it is generally below average, it's only really poor in a relatively small area (see above).

Apart from this season, I think the most recent widely dodgy season starts were 2014/15 and 2015/16.

You know it makes sense.

Seen worse, seen better.

worry about the things you can influence not things you cannot influence

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think it's only hit the headlines because so many people insist on skiing at New Year, despite the crowds and the historical risk of poor snow conditions.

A snowHead

@Neil Neige, The BBC 6 O'clock news has just done a 20 second piece on the lack of Snow... :: Must be BAD !!

A snowHead

'90 was a bad one as I recall... We went to Ellmau 1st week in Jan on only our 2nd trip.

We were rolling along in the transfer coach on a lovely sunny day, admiring the lush green Alpine meadows....when the coach stops and the rep says, "Here you are, your chalet is just there..."

Not a flake of snow to be seen anywhere - the whole of the Ski Welt was bussed into Scheffau for the 3 open runs there.

Happy days

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Remember it is still only 3rd Jan it’s very early in the season.
Sometimes you get big dumps in Dec and Jan then nothing for weeks through Feb and early Mar
There was a lot of snow early season last year and then it was warm for ages about end of Feb Mar if I remember correctly so you never really know what you’re going to get.

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It was all of those Laughing

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If you're a piste skier, conditions in Val and Tignes right now are really very good. Immaculate (snowboard!) carving conditions the past couple of mornings. Sainte Foy is a little thin, but everything is open and the snow quality is decent enough. Anything lower than that is pretty desperate. Off piste is pretty bad, but snow cover up high is actually very good for the time of year (where it hasn't purged!) and it will only take a small amount of fresh snow to give good conditions.

Overall, orders of magnitude better than 2015 and 2016. Was it 2011 that was very bad too? Way better than that anyway.

The difference this time appears to be the large volume of rain at almost all altitudes. In the northern French Alps and SE Switzerland.

I’ve memory of many rubbish Alpine December’s going back to 1980, but they seemed to be sunny, warm and arid for weeks on end.

I think there was a run of very low snow Alpine winters, was it the late 80’s and early/mid 90’s?, where folk were very gloomy about the future of skiing in Europe.

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I only started skiiing in the late 80's, and as a beginner we didn't want new snow as the resort typically closed. In fact we rarely lost a day to 'snow' for years.

The impression I have/had was the the conditions went from 1 bad year in 5, to 1 in 3, to every other year, to 1 great year in 3 to 1 great year in 5.

This was largely in Saas-Fee, where there is massive evidence of the change in the climate, and the melting of the glaciers, due to a combination of low snow fall and higher temperatures. I checked the village tempatures today and it was +8C, which is ridiculous for a village at 1800m, in January, without direct sunlight.

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@stewart woodward, @red 27,

Nah -- just record temperatures ; 20 degrees C in Switzerland (highest recorded temperature for January in the Alps..)

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@PowderAdict, I disagree and agree. Have been going to Saas Fee for the same period as you. No doubt the glacier is seriously depleted, but in terms of snowfall it has not no much reduced as moved to later in the season. We have had epic conditions for many springs in Saas Fee but disappointing in Feb.

I still doubt there is anything like the total snowfall they used to get, even if some is arriving later. In any case early season snowfall isn't there to add to the snowpack on the glacier. Any late season snowfall will just melt before it can be compacted onto the glacier.

In the days when alpine snowfall was recorded on teletex, Saas-Fee didn't bother reporting anything under 50cm, as snowfall was so regular. Do you remember the year when they built the giant snowman at Felskinn, and the many years snow banks were halfway up the bus windows from the start of the Saas valley snowHead

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

All the alpine glaciers are shadows of their former selves.

A snowHead

A snowHead

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The difference is the temperature. The source air is much warmer than it used to be. The recent cold spell in the UK for example, should have been much colder given the Synoptics but the artic air is just not as cold as it used to be because there is less snow cover and the oceans are warmer lifting air temps higher. Same impact on the Alps. Higher snow lines and much more rain particularly in the places exposed to the south and west. Warm air holds more moisture so heavy snow can still happen but it’s all getting more marginal. High energy costs and ultimately very high prices may be the bigger short term restriction for many. Bit bleak I’m afraid.

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Second 2 weeks in Dec in VT were excellent this year.

After all it is free

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@davidof, Depends how far you go back. I remember back I think 2007 the snow was as bad as it is currently is this year across the alps, with images of green slopes everywhere. I remember as I cancelled plans to ski that year and went scuba diving instead. Laughing

So it's not as if this has never happened before...it does happen and has happened before.

Help!!

How bad is the early 2023 ski season in the Alps (in the overall scheme)?

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