So I've really searched everywhere but I couldn't find a rule saying this wasn't allowed - if it isn't, let me know and I'll remove immediately!
For my masters in Industrial Ecology I'm writing a thesis on more sustainable snowboards (and therefore also skis), and in order to model the use of skis/snowboards properly I need people's input, which is why I'm doing a survey. It would be awesome if some of you would be willing to fill it out. Please also let me know in case you have any suggestions/notes/questions about my research (even opinions on this topic are actually already extremely helpful).
In return for you filling this out I'll see if I can put my ski/snowboard instructor knowledge to some good use here, and alltogether see where I can contribute.
For another forum the rule was that you had to make an introduction video about yourself when posting a survey, so just for your entertainment here it is (it's pretty lame though): http://youtube.com/v/mCUa2QNqo7A
Thanks for your input! It might indeed not feel that way, as the aim of this survey is to model how people use their snowboards/skis, how long they approximately use them, why they cannot be used anymore, etc. This information I can then use to model the use time, but also to take to the industry actors that I'm interviewing and say - hey, I see here that most skis cannot be used anymore just because the edges cannot be sharpened anymore - isn't it time to put on some thicker edges and elongate the lifetime this way? So in fact this is really important information for sustainability
In the research actually I'm looking at way broader options such as recycling technologies, use of biobased/recycled materials, different forms of transport, alternative energy... the whole shabang. I'm building different life cycle scenarios and comparing these in environmental impact, so I'm also getting a lot of info from industry actors/academics/literature. This survey is only one part of the research.
I did frame it in this way in purpose, to keep things simple and easy to fill out, but I am going to see if I can work in a way to take into account inputs for more people!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
Please don't encourage or endorse the snowboard move at Serfaus-Fiss-Ladis in the video.
One person's 'look how badass I am' is another's 'I hate this sport, never again'
Thanks for filling it out! I'll take that part out. It was kind of meant as a stupid joke (this vid originally was for a snowboarding forum), I actually told him to not do that afterwards (not that he noticed, that's actually what I thought was funny about that moment, this guy just turned 6 and was completely oblivious). But I see now how this is not necessarily something that should be promoted, didn't think about that!
Done. And thank you for bothering to engage with the forum, too often people who post research surveys never post anything other than their request.
Good luck with it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Have done the survey. It has made me re-visit a question I have often pondered - what eventually does happen to worn-out skis? Of the last 5 pairs I have disposed of, all but one pair was sold or given away; one pair went straight to Albertville tip. But selling / giving away simply moves the problem along one step - the new owner still has to eventually dispose of them. They are a complex blend of materials, so stripping out each one may be pretty labour-intensive and make re-cycling uneconomic. The French tend to incinerate much more than we do, but can that be done with skis? Do they just end up in landfill?
This season I will be staying mostly in Bourg St Maurice - by coincidence, less than a kilometre from the municipal tip. If I should look in and ask the friendly folks that run it what they do with skis and get an answer I'll re-visit your thread @ET.
After all it is free
After all it is free
ET wrote:
`I see here that most skis cannot be used anymore just because the edges cannot be sharpened anymore - isn't it time to put on some thicker edges and elongate the lifetime this way? So in fact this is really important information for sustainability
I've had more problems with bindings than with the ski's themselves tbh. And the cost of buying new bindings and fitting them often overrides whether or not the ski's still have life. And/or some people would wary about drilling a second time, certainly a third time. It's the problem with many products today I guess. A major component fails, even if you can get a replacement the effort/cost involved and the fact that the new stuff is theoretically better built and really not that much more expensive means you just bin it off and get a new set.
Also on the ski's itself they can become lifeless before the edges go. There have been certain leaps in materials/design that almost mark anything before as obsolete. You still ski ski's on ebay/marketplace today that actually have life in them but their design means today they are totally worthless. You literally can't give them away. Because unless you learnt on them you can't ski them.
Some of these issues are far less of an issue for snowboards I would imagine.
Good luck with your research.
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bobski62 wrote:
Have done the survey. It has made me re-visit a question I have often pondered - what eventually does happen to worn-out skis? Of the last 5 pairs I have disposed of, all but one pair was sold or given away; one pair went straight to Albertville tip. But selling / giving away simply moves the problem along one step - the new owner still has to eventually dispose of them. They are a complex blend of materials, so stripping out each one may be pretty labour-intensive and make re-cycling uneconomic. The French tend to incinerate much more than we do, but can that be done with skis? Do they just end up in landfill?
This season I will be staying mostly in Bourg St Maurice - by coincidence, less than a kilometre from the municipal tip. If I should look in and ask the friendly folks that run it what they do with skis and get an answer I'll re-visit your thread @ET.
ive seen photos of used skis that have been used for chairs, fences, etc.
Better off asking a rental shop, as they are likely the ones getting rid of old skis
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Many years ago I visted a very successful gymnastics club and they had constructed a tumbling run out of old skis supported at their tips and tails on wooden batterns and covered by a rubber mat. It was incredibly springy and allowed for some good skill development. It must have been successful as one of their gymnasts went on to win a silver medal at the world gymnastics championships. Such improvised equipment is seldom seen in British Gymnastics these days.
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I always love to see "up cycling", @Mr.Egg, and @johnE, but even so, once the up-cycled items come to their own end of useful life, what then ... ? Good idea to ask at some of the rental shops though. Probably too much to hope for them being returned to the manufacturer for environmentally-friendly strip apart and re-cycle. But is that where @ET's work might lead?
Will let you know what comes of any enquiries (if I'm not too busy sliding down hills on the skis I haven't worn out yet!).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
ah Leiden... nice place
I don't trash anything, I hoard.
Skis I'll use until they can't be used any more. It's boots I have an issue with, cos I have 1 pair that are beyond further use, can't be used 2nd hand by anyone else. So they will eventually end up in the trash or recycling somewhere.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
completed it.
Not really covered in the survey but an observation - I'm a bit sceptical about the environment credentials of outdoor equipment not because improvements can't be made but because the size of those improvements over the life of the e.g., ski are likely to be pretty trivial vs say decisions on whether to fly or drive to resort, where to ski locally or go long-haul, etc.
I think a lot of this can become greenwash "my heli trip to AK is fine because I'm wearing patagonia gear made from carbon neutral recycled yak droppings"
(I'm being a tad provocative here - I did say I'd pay a small premium for sustainability)
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Done it, but there's some questions with double meanings or unclear definitions which I may have got wrong - for instance how many are "used" (do you mean purchased second hand or in regular use on the slopes), and questions about my "previous" equipment (do you mean stuff which I no longer have, or my older stuff which I never got rid of and/or still use - bit difficult if you have bought and still have and still use 2, 3, 4 or more sets/boards). I can see the idea behind some of the questions, but not always fully clear enough to make the answers reliable.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Grizzler, i took used to mean second hand given the nature of the survey. Could be an issue in the results
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Poster: A snowHead
Completed the survey. The questions actually made sense, which puts you a step ahead of most of the surveys people post
Quote:
I think a lot of this can become greenwash "my heli trip to AK is fine because I'm wearing patagonia gear made from carbon neutral recycled yak droppings"
True, it does happen! I know at least one person sponsored by Patagonia always posting about the environment who went Heli skiing. Many elements of skiing are bad for the environment, and equipment is possibly one of the smaller concerns.
I have a couple of friends that won't buy Jones snowboards anymore because their experience is that the sustainable bamboo top sheet chips a lot quicker than regular top sheet. While the survey questions how much more people are willing to pay for eco-friendly equipment, it's assuming like for like which may not be the case.
Snowboards seem to last a long time. Most people I know replace their snowboards way before they really need to, and often for trivial reasons (just fancy a new one/got a good deal in a sale/graphics looked cool). Snowboard oots are way more of an issue in that they don't seem to last long at all. Usually after 1 season they are way too soft.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hi guys,
Wow, thanks for all of your responses! Honestly all of your input helps a lot.
@Grizzler, I adapted that question immediately - it was supposed to mean how many pairs of skis you actually use (I for example myself have a pair that are just gathering dust in a closet). This could indeed be an issue in the results, I'll pay attention to that! Thanks for mentioning it!
@bobski62: I'm not sure how this works in e.g. France, but in the Netherlands we rarely landfill and incinerate everything. So here, skis would be probably be incinerated - which means that currently only the steel edges are recovered (steel you can get out of incineration remains afterwards). I haven't really looked into resins and recycling in very much detail yet, but there are processes with which you could theoretically separate the layers, but this is not commercial yet. However, there are really exciting things going on in the industry/science. I'll definitely get you guys an update/the results when I know more! Also because it's such an interesting topic (at least I think so, haha).
@JohnE that is such a cool story! would be nice if these things happened more often. I am a bit skeptical about upcycling too because you often get "extra" stuff that otherwise you wouldn't have produced, but in this case this is a cool solution!
And yeah, I agree that the impact of snowboards/skis is not that big compared to the traveling and the wintersports itself, was struggling with this for a while, but actually every industry needs to go to 0 and decrease their material use in the end, which is why this still makes sense to look at. But it should never be used to do other polluting things. That is just stupid - but it does happen unfortunately.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sustainable skis are just another green gimmick that will make pretty much zero difference to the planet.
Recycle, refurb, and resell are probably the lowhanging fruit.
Open highprofile tradein stores (or popup booths) in ski resorts, where you can get $100 for your old skis, and immediately put the cash toward a new pair of $1,000 skis.
I have made ecofriendly skis for years, I won the Eco award for Skis in ISPO in 2013 and helped 2 others in later years. Give me a shout if you need technical (ski/snowboard construction help/explination)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ride my snowboards till there's nothing left of them usually, then turn them into stuff. Have a nice collection of coat racks and garden furniture made out of them. Do the same with old surfboards, though I got 20 years use out of the last one I retired - hung it between two trees in the garden, covered it in clear nylon mesh, and grow runner beans on it
Done. You may have already looked at it but the Capita Mothership factory in Austria has some interesting eco things going on (hydro powered, zero CO2 etc.) https://capitasnowboarding.com/pages/mothership
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A lot of work going on in the composites industry looking at this, from bio based resins to end-of-life considerations. Check out some of the work being coordinated by the National Composites Centre...
https://www.nccuk.com/sustainable-composites/
After all it is free
After all it is free
Idris wrote:
I have made ecofriendly skis for years, I won the Eco award for Skis in ISPO in 2013 and helped 2 others in later years. Give me a shout if you need technical (ski/snowboard construction help/explination)
Awesome, definitely taking you up on this! I'll send you a message later today
@Handyhand: Yeah the Mothership is really interesting, the system they have there is really progressive! In terms of manufacturing energy that is probably as green as you can get (depending on your location). I hope to talk to them as well in some later stage of my research.
@Doofenschmirtz thanks for the composite source, I hadn't stumbled upon that one yet
@hang11 that sounds like a really great garden. Nice reuse of your stuff!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
A few weeks ago I was reading about the bioplastics that Lego are looking at as part of their 100% sustainable project. They are using a hemp bioplastics which are a low water and fertiliser consumer, naturally pest resistant, and can also be grown on contaminated ground where the plants can help remove metal and chemical toxins from the soil.
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Done too.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
but actually every industry needs to go to 0 and decrease their material use in the end, which is why this still makes sense to look at.
I think that's perhaps a little naïve. A lot of industry and companies have zero cares about the environment, profit is more important. Unless they are forced to by government regulations, or people refuse to buy their product there is little incentive.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Yeah, well done - I almost never manage to make it through any of these as they're usually so badly designed it's not possible.
ET wrote:
... For my masters in Industrial Ecology I'm writing a thesis on more sustainable snowboards (and therefore also skis), and in order to model the use of skis/snowboards properly I need people's input ..
I guess I'm a sceptic of surveys, as it all depends how you ask the questions. I'd be more interested in actual marketing data from the industry, which is likely harder to get at. However those industries have zero market incentive to reduce the amount of stuff they supply, and hence the amount of the planet they burn. That's a feature of how our economy's set up. Companies like Patagonia arguably try to reduce their impact by making things more recyclable etc, but the market still means that they, and everyone in their supply chain, has an incentive to supply more not less.
Maybe you already did it, but it would presumably be kind of handy to know first if the tree you're barking up is the correct one.
That is, what percentage of the damage to the planet done by a snowboarder is the board itself?
My guess would be that it's relatively low compared with everything else, but it should be possible to compute
with some basic assumptions and without relying on market or survey data I'd guess.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@boarder2020: well yeah, maybe this is true, but in the end industries will have to. The dutch government for example has set a goal to be fully circular by 2050 (it's quite a strange goal, but yeah they did set it). Moreover, if we don't want to surpass 2 degrees warming, 0 emissions by 2050 are strongly recommended (otherwise huge negative emissions will be required afterwards). Yes, it sounds surreal and I have no clue whether its going to happen (maybe not) but this is what is necessary.
People are seeing the demand for this anyways. I was talking to a snowboard company earlier this year, and they really felt the pressure from consumers to do something about sustainability (that they didn't do it kind of became a marketing problem for them).
@philwig: I've had this question a lot of times already, and for long I've struggled to answer it. Yes, you are right, in the total scope of wintersports the impact of a snowboard is extremely limited (I would say maybe 1% of it even). However, it's still worth looking at, because in the end all of these problems need to be solved, and what I'm doing is also relevant for composites in other industries (automotive etc).
And yes, glad you asked, there is some data! There's one academic study on skis; they get a carbon footprint of 45 kg CO2equivalent per pair of skis (this conservative, because they assume very little transport and production in Germany and no production losses so in reality this will be higher). Say 2 million pairs of skis per year (I had data but can't find it anymore) --> 90.000 tons of CO2 per year for the ski industry (but probably double), and then let's say the same for snowboards. I'm pretty confident that this impact could be halved quite easily. And then it's still small, it won't lead to world peace or solving the climate crisis, but it's still relevant to look at. In the end, every chair, table, whatever needs to be looked at get to a more sustainable system.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The world produces 90,000 tons of CO2 every 80 seconds...
Skis are an insignificant 0.0002% of world emissions.
A tiny pinprick in a minuscule drop in a mega bucket.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Well... I guess opinions differ on that
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Quote:
I was talking to a snowboard company earlier this year, and they really felt the pressure from consumers to do something about sustainability (that they didn't do it kind of became a marketing problem for them)
Interesting. I have a friend that works as a distributor and took all the eco stuff out her pitches as didn't believe it was an important factor for buyers. Also I rarely see the ecological merits of equipment bought up in the average snowboard review, the things they focus on (e.g. price and performance) seem more important to many. I'm sure there are some that sustainability is the biggest factor, but maybe a minority. I guess anyone that environmentally conscious is not flying to resorts, buying unnecessary equipment, touring rather than using lifts etc. so their footprint is probably low anyway and a board/skis is negligible.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Done. While I have owned my skis for a few years now, when I did seasons I had rental skis and poles for the whole time - 6 seasons, and rental ski boots for 2 or 3 seasons, eventually bought my own boots because I was fed up with buckets. It would have been nice to be able to tick a box saying I rented before buying, but that's small fry I suppose.
I think durability and performance of the equipment is most important for me, and being able to take care of that equipment at a resonable rate of time and money. I'm not going to buy enviro gear if it last half as long and costs twice as much, that's not effective. And I'm not going to buy something that doesn't perform well and therefore has an impact on my performance - no one wants that.
For what it's worth though, I love my Atomic Vantage 90s that are now 5 years old, I keep them in fine condition and have zero intention of replacing them before they become unusable, even then I will save them and turn them in to something, I am actually looking at getting hold of a collection of vintage/retro skis to make bits and bobs out of - that's what I like doing.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sorry- this is nonsense given that skiing and snowboarding are so environmentally unfriendly. Travel; flying, transport to resorts. Resort construction in alpine areas, infrastructure, damage to slopes from pistes, water abstraction for snowmaking, lifts etc.
So having a sustainable snowboard / skis is just greenwash.
Sorry- this is nonsense given that skiing and snowboarding are so environmentally unfriendly. Travel; flying, transport to resorts. Resort construction in alpine areas, infrastructure, damage to slopes from pistes, water abstraction for snowmaking, lifts etc.
I'm not claiming skiing has zero impact, but travelling by train will cut your carbon cost of travel by 85% and your travel to resort is the single biggest contributor to emissions produced when you take a ski trip. Choose resorts with low impact policies (eg renewable energy, melt water snowcannons) - www.saveoursnow.com is good for this.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Its bonkers to me to hear people saying "there's no point, because everything else is damaging the environment anyway..." - its about the aggregation of small improvements. If every business working in the industry and everyone using the industry makes a 1% or 2% improvement, it seems small, but add up those improvements and it starts making a difference. Its madness to say if you can't change the environment in one big swing overnight, then there is no point doing anything.
We can all continuously make small improvements and the compound effect of this over time has the potential to be huge but this relies on everyone taking some personal responsibility.
Nobody is saying don't do anything. The fact is even if you made all ski equipment zero emission the effects on the world would be negligible. It does seem to make more sense to tackle the bigger contributors.
The truth is the vast majority (me included) simply are not bothered enough. We are happy to do our bit when it comes to things that do not require much effort (e.g. putting plastic in the recycling bin rather than regular). However, we are not willing to sacrifice things we want (e.g. flying, skiing). If there was real demand for change people would be taking action, but the majority are clearly not. This is the truth for the "forward-thinking" EU countries, the situation is worse around the world where many have little understanding there is even a problem (and frankly much more pressing concerns).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I'm actually quite happy with the discussion this whole thing started - wasn't my intention, but I think it's important and interesting to see what everybody thinks!
@boarder2020: Quality and function will probably stay the most important things for people, but it's slowly becoming kind of a hygiene factor to do something about sustainability I think. So people will not decide based on sustainability, but I guess they are starting to expect things, and that's why this brand was like hey we need to do something.
I do feel like it's becoming a trend in the snowboard market, maybe more than with skis. Ironically enough A LOT of the sustainability things happening in the snowboarding world currently are marketing things (I was researching brands today, and now i'm frustrated). A few brands have the guts to mention "recycled steel edges". All steel consists of recycled steel to some extent, normally it's not possible to specifically buy "recycled" steel things and the recycling rate of steel is 96% in some areas--> it makes zero difference to use "recycled" steel edges, yet they use it as a marketing claim. Same holds for biobased topsheets: literally every pair of skis/snowboard in this world has a (at least partially) bio-based topsheet, because they are all made from PA11 which is made from castor beans. And yet some brands dare to use this as a sustainability marketing claim. (edit: this was wrong, I misread some of my references - there are also skis and boards with other material topsheets such as PE)
I also think it's quite lame that I see nobody talking about binding sustainability, even though this would be way easier to realize since you can separate its parts so you could actually easily design a circular binding. Guess that is just not in fashion enough yet.
I think all sustainability efforts go in smaller steps. After I graduate I hope to help cover some ski resort parking lots with solar panels, see if there's a business case in heat-saving showers for hotels, etc. Will these things make a huge difference? No, but they still help and all of these small things need to be solved in the end too. Guess I just completely agree with what SLB79 is saying. The huge problems are the hardest ones to get in motion - while we all slowly work on these I'm going to try to solve some things that I actually can solve.
@Extremophile - that would have been a nice addition indeed... thanks for mentioning it, can't fix it anymore now but will keep it in mind in case I happen to do something like this another time!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 17-07-20 16:08; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
yet they use it as a marketing claim
Of course. This is what a lot of brands do. Find some aspect that can easily be done eco-friendly at no extra cost. Market it heavily as a sign they are doing something and can tick the eco-friendly box.
At least bindings last a long time. Plus certain parts are replaceable meaning you can extend the life even more. Boots are the issue, I'm replacing mine every season. Would happily pay more and even take a slight hit in comfort and performance for a pair that lasted longer.
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ET, I really admire what you're trying to do. I genuinely believe that seemingly small steps will be what lead to the big changes. It seems to me that if some players in the market start to bring this issue into the minds of its customers, it will have a knock on effect in making the most unsustainable look at their own behaviour and try to do something. Even if they don't really care and its just for "marketing" purposes, eco-credentials will become prevalent and visible, customers will become more aware and educated and will actively seek out eco-alternatives.
@boarder2020 - you make a valid point that all here want to go skiing and aren't likely to sacrifice that. But just being aware of the impacts of skiing has the potential to change our behaviour in other, perhaps small ways. We can all make small changes in the way we live day to day; I may not be prepared to sacrifice skiing right now, but I'm prepared to make other sacrifices in recognition of my impact.
Its a change of perspective, I don't see putting plastic in a different bin as any extra effort - I was putting it in a bin anyway. But because recycling is a relatively new trend, people view it as an effort.
But trying to reduce the plastic we put in that recycling bin? That sounds really difficult - but do it one bit of plastic at a time, and it seems easier. No more single use drinks bottles - carry a reusable container. Get rid of fruit and veg packaging - buy loose fruit and veg or use your local farm shop - also saving money by not buying more than you need. Small changes with big impacts.
Sorry for digressing and getting preachy
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@ET,
Quote:
Same holds for biobased topsheets: literally every pair of skis/snowboard in this world has a (at least partially) bio-based topsheet, because they are all made from PA11 which is made from castor beans. And yet some brands dare to use this as a sustainability marketing claim.
Is that really true? PA11 is pretty expensive, I'd be surprised if some companies didn't use a cheaper alternative. Wouldn't have thought top sheets were THAT technically demanding.
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