 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Baker is known for Deep Snow Immersion fatalities. More people are killed in North America in DSI incidents than avalanches.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well played that man
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He was lucky he saw him. Scary.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I couldn't breathe watching it.
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Neither could I. Real phew moment
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A very sobering video 
I had a bad fall (faceplant) in Japan, earlier this year. No tree well involved but went so far under that the snow was piling in and it felt like drowning in a sea of white. Very alarming, if only for a few seconds.
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Incredible. So lucky. Couldn't have been there long. If the skier had taken a slightly different route he would no longer be with us
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Extremely lucky that he took the exact same gap between the trees. Even luckier that he happened to glance down and see the board. If he'd not taken that near fall, he would probably have missed him.
I was wondering if the border was solo, which would be a bit stupid in that terrain, or if he had some mates who might have been looking, but no chance of finding him in time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| brianatab wrote: |
Extremely lucky that he took the exact same gap between the trees. Even luckier that he happened to glance down and see the board. If he'd not taken that near fall, he would probably have missed him.
I was wondering if the border was solo, which would be a bit stupid in that terrain, or if he had some mates who might have been looking, but no chance of finding him in time. |
The video's descriptions stated that
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| The boarder was with a group of three other riders, all very experienced and carrying beacon, shovel, probe, and walkies. |
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I was with a buddy in a fairly small area and I went into a well and all he knew is that I didn't show up at the lift. He'd have known where to begin the search, that's about it. I got myself out, but not before seeing the sky disappear as the snow covered me up. Hell yeah it freaked me out....as did watching this; I was squirming. That dude was toast. Consider this one an optimal outcome.
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You know it makes sense.
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The victim had survived for a while, so he was getting air from somewhere even through that heavy looking snow.
Looking at the details...
- We couldn't see the border in the video, don't know if the skier could or not.
- The rescue skier crashed just before that "tree fence" (0:15) beyond which you can see open slope
- The skier stepped around to line himself up for the gap he went through (0:30). Maybe he could see tracks there.
- Then he almost rode over the snowboard (0:31), and immediately stopped.
He did a great job. Using his hands to dig first worked better than I'd have expected in that snow.
The "buddy system" requires a lot of practice to make work. The rescuer's own buddy should have been there to help, so both groups had failures.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| phil_w wrote: |
The "buddy system" requires a lot of practice to make work. The rescuer's own buddy should have been there to help, so both groups had failures. |
You can see that at the start of the video the skier didn't follow his buddy, which was a stroke of luck for the snowboarder as it took the skier in his direction.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Very hard for one skier not to be slightly ahead of his buddy, in which case he can't see an accident by the one behind. By the time he looks, even if he were to look back regularly, it may be a fair walk to get back in deep snow, even if not far in yards.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In the comments with the video the rescuers buddy says he should see him but thought he'd lost a ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have never heard about snow-well problems in Europe though they must happen. What is different about USA trees? Or is it USA snow?
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| snowball wrote: |
| Very hard for one skier not to be slightly ahead of his buddy, in which case he can't see an accident by the one behind. By the time he looks, even if he were to look back regularly, it may be a fair walk to get back in deep snow, even if not far in yards. |
The way heliskiers are trained to do it is by shouting continually to each other. The leader calls and the trailer has to respond. If there's no response... you have to stop and retrace your track to find the trailer. Who has a whistle and a radio to make it easier. When it works well, you don't have to look back (you need to look where you're going!) or stop, with the lead leap frogging every so often. When the other person isn't competent at precisely this thing, it doesn't work.
You would almost never ride actually in the same track, just within sight, and in the knowledge of which direction your buddy is in from you.
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| I have never heard about snow-well problems in Europe though they must happen. What is different about USA trees? Or is it USA snow? |
The tree line is at a different altitude. And there's a lot of snow - consolidated down to a 3.5m base with 20-50cm powder on top.
Can any locals confirm if they have tree wells in Le Fornet, and if not, why not? I learned trees there, but don't remember being concerned about wells.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| phil_w wrote: |
The way heliskiers are trained to do it is by shouting continually to each other. The leader calls and the trailer has to respond. If there's no response... you have to stop and retrace your track to find the trailer. Who has a whistle and a radio to make it easier. When it works well, you don't have to look back (you need to look where you're going!) or stop, with the lead leap frogging every so often. When the other person isn't competent at precisely this thing, it doesn't work.
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Sounds sensible but we weren't taught that the two times I did it. The first one was Stewart BC by the Alaskan border so lots of tree skiing (the other was Alaska, so none).
My buddy (friend actually) was in trouble once, but I heard him shout when he fell. Only about 30 or so yards to get back to him but it took ages in deep powder. His head was above the snow so he kept on shouting which helped locate him.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 31-03-23 15:54; edited 1 time in total
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| snowball wrote: |
| I have never heard about snow-well problems in Europe though they must happen. What is different about USA trees? Or is it USA snow? |
It is tree species and snow depth. You need both. The well is caused by drooping evergreen tree branches (especially but not exclusively cedar and hemlock) and the snow sliding off of them creating a void beneath the branches to receive you, and the snow that slid off the branches fills in around you as you go down. Tree wells can be deep; as you saw in the video, the victim's head was probably five feet down, and the snow filled in pretty well, didn't it? There aren't any tree wells around deciduous trees like aspen, as the conditions required to create them don't exist.
On average, in NA there will be a few instances each season where this risk is real, although the general counsel of each area has seen to it that a warning is posted most all the time (so we begin to ignore it, in my view, but anyway). Some areas, and Mt. Baker probably leads the league since it is often the snowfall champion, really do have nearly season-long risk. And this season nearly everywhere in NA has this risk and is has yet to abate.
Props to the savior who dug like a dog.
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I have ended up in one, fortunately upright, about hip deep, but they are a real bugg to self extract from. The amount of effort you have to put in compacting snow till you have a base to try and get out is enormous.
That deep snow safety link that @PowderAdict posted was written by a guy over at Mt.Baker and has some good info on it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@phil_w,
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The way heliskiers are trained to do it is by shouting continually to each other
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This is also what we were told to do catskiing in Fernie. A two tone shout continuously. Pretty hard to remember when you're having that much fun though but I also stopped often and shouted to let the trailing buddy know where I was. Being not so experienced, I found it pretty hard to focus on where I was going and also where my buddy was though.
This video really emphasizes the importance of the buddy system.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| The way heliskiers are trained to do it is by shouting continually to each other. |
This is why all skiers and snowboards should be proficient in yodelling before being issued with a lift-pass. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think all this talk about yelling and so forth is a bit pedantic. I mean, go ahead, especially in a heli-type situation. It will only hurt your concentration, and in the right circumstances it could be a big help. But there are few materials better than snow at absorbing sound waves, so you'd need to be pretty close (bringing collision risk into the equation). When we're weaving between the trees at speed our primary focus is and ought to be on missing them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Tree wells are not generally a problem in Europe, but I have been warned by someone who has skied in Tirol for a decade or two about larch. Apparently larch is quite bendy, and can get looped over creating a hollow under its trunk and branches, that can catch skiers unawares and tangle them up. There have been fatalities – he mentioned one on Nordkette a few years ago. Forests are often mixed species, so there may be larch growing among the conifers.
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@Scarlet, Larch is easy to spot as it is a deciduous conifer so it looks dead in winter. Saw a ton of 'em in Zillertal. Being bare they wouldn't shed snow like other conifers in full leaf, but I'll defer to the Tirolers. Knowledge is power.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Scooter in Seattle, I wouldn't expect it to be a problem this year, there just hasn't been enough snow. I certainly haven't heard of any tree well type incidents, only the usual people crashing into them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| I think all this talk about yelling and so forth is a bit pedantic. I mean, go ahead, especially in a heli-type situation. It will only hurt your concentration, and in the right circumstances it could be a big help. But there are few materials better than snow at absorbing sound waves, so you'd need to be pretty close (bringing collision risk into the equation). When we're weaving between the trees at speed our primary focus is and ought to be on missing them. |
Different folks/ different strokes. But as you've made specific claims there, for me the opposite is true:
- Call-response is automatic. The sound tells you where the other person is, behind or in front, as although you may know where their track is, you generally can't see each other in the forest.
The OP's video shows that. - Good riders leap frog without stopping, which you can't do unless you know where your buddy is in relation to you.
Riding well as a team feels like clockwork, satisfying not "pedantic".
- In a large group (eg 9 guests) pairs will [also be asked to] ride separated, but hearing other pairs helps avoid collisions and aids navigation.
If you "wander" and can't see tracks, the trick is to stop and listen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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A friend of ours died in a tree well in Montana 20 m of the piste. Around 4 people died at Whitefish that season I think. He had a buddy but they separated somewhat (not uncommon). Any separation is a problem as the deep snow is so hard to move in. He died at lunchtime, which is also common, as the early morning, skiers/boarders are further away from the trees, later in the day they push towards the trees to get fresh tracks. Its often the very best skiers/boarders that this happens to. Very sad.
The video is amazing; the boarder was lucky the guy knew what to do and did it quickly
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| Apparently larch is quite bendy, and can get looped over creating a hollow under its trunk and branches, that can catch skiers unawares and tangle them up |
Further to my earlier post, I also managed this in Japan (as well as the faceplant that felt like drowning  ). Another alarming incident. Ended up on my back, head down the hill, completely unable to move as my foot was stuck under a submerged branch. Because all my body weight was down the hill, I was unable to reach up to either of my bindings. My buddy (Mrs MA) was fortunately within shouting distance below me - but took what seemed an eternity to get back up through the deep powder to free me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| Apparently larch is quite bendy, and can get looped over creating a hollow under its trunk and branches, that can catch skiers unawares and tangle them up. |
Oh yeah, very familar with a minor version of that on the SOPiB where the trees are mostly larch. Bendy branch anchored deep in the snow, board caught in the loop, can't easily back up because that means pushing the board back uphill somehow, can't carry on forwards because of the loop.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@snowball, Not "Snow Wells" per se, but here in Ski Amade we've had two DSI in the last two seasons. Both fairly close to the Pistes and both involving people who were skiing/boarding alone and went headfirst into snow drifts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I wonder about catching a tip on a barely-submerged wire fence while skiing on the farmland in the Alps. Is that a thing? Saw a ton of good-looking snow with about 6" of fence posts showing, and they're not there for show...
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Those European trees are clearly working very differently with the snow fall.
In the bits of BC I'm familiar with, planted trees grow too close together to be enjoyable to ski without someone glading them with a chainsaw. Stumps and fallen logs are a low-snow/ early-season hazard as a consequence of that.
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@Scooter in Seattle, yes it's a thing. Friend severed his achilles in Kitzbühel doing exactly that 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Steilhang, thanks and ouch. Yeah, when it occurred to me my face resembled your emoji.
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| gryphea wrote: |
A friend of ours died in a tree well in Montana 20 m of the piste. Around 4 people died at Whitefish that season I think. He had a buddy but they separated somewhat (not uncommon). Any separation is a problem as the deep snow is so hard to move in. He died at lunchtime, which is also common, as the early morning, skiers/boarders are further away from the trees, later in the day they push towards the trees to get fresh tracks. Its often the very best skiers/boarders that this happens to. Very sad.
The video is amazing; the boarder was lucky the guy knew what to do and did it quickly |
There have been a number of them. Since the exchange student, there are warning signs on lift towers, at the summit, on trail maps, etc. But a good portion of the mountain is "tree skiing", so it still happens:
Big Mountain skiing-related deaths
Jan. 4, 1978 — Steve Hogan, 32, died after he fell into a tree well while skiing with friends in the Fault 3 area. Hogan was an experienced skier and a former ski patroller.
Jan. 21, 1979 — Danny On died after he hit a tree and fell into a tree well off of the Corkscrew slope. He was skiing alone at the time.
Feb. 16, 1990 — Steve Klaas, 35, died after suffering an aneurysm. He was found unconscious in a tree well in the Good Medicine area. Klaas was a former ski patroller and was skiing alone.
Mar. 10, 1999 — Robert Erving died after falling into a tree well on the double-black Bighorn slope. He was found five days later by a snowboarder, frozen to death and upside down beneath a tree. He was skiing alone.
On Dec. 29, 2010 - Niclas Waeschle, 16-year-old skier was found alive but unresponsive in a tree well at Montana's Whitefish Mountain Resort; he was taken off life support at the hospital several days later. Bigfoot, skiing by himself on a groomed trail near the T-bar 2 ski lift at Whitefish Mountain Resort. He fell head first into a tree well, which is a large pocket of unpacked snow that formed around the base of a tree, near the edge of the groomed trail and close to the area where skiers dismount from the T-bar
Jan. 8, 2011 - Scott Allen Meyer, a 29-year-old probation and parole officer, snowboarder was found dead in a tree well at Montana's Whitefish Mountain Resort. That is the second death at Whitefish recently. Near Bigfoot. died in a tree well at or near the T-bar 2 ski lift east of Big Mountain’s summit, i.e. at or near the very spot where Niclas (above) had encountered the tree well,
February 2014 - Thomas Podivinsky, 48, of Calgary, Alberta. Podivinsky was the older brother of Canadian Olympic alpine ski medalist Edward “Edi” Podivinsky. Thomas Podivinsky died early Sunday afternoon. Officials said he was skiing with a friend when the two became separated at approximately 12:30 p.m. When Podivinsky didn’t meet up with a group of people as planned, they reported him missing at 1 p.m. Members of the Whitefish Mountain Ski Patrol located him upside-down and buried in snow in a tree well, and were unable to resuscitate him. Whitefish Mountain spokeswoman Riley Polumbus said Podivinsky was skiing in an ungroomed treed area between the Hollywood and Silvertip runs on the mountain’s north side. Silvertip.
January. 11, 2014 - 54-year-old Douglas Spring, was killed when he fell into a tree well on the north side between the Big Horn and Grey Wolf runs.
Dec. 30, 2017 - Scott Robert Hornstra, 28, of Alberta. He was snowboarding with friends in the “Sling Shot” area of Hellroaring Basin, a gladed run within the resort boundaries, when the group became separated from the victim near the top of the run.
When the man failed to meet his friends at the bottom of the run, they reported him missing.
Crews initiated a search, with Whitefish Mountain Resort Ski Patrol, Flathead Search and Rescue and Two Bear Air helicopter taking the lead. Searchers from Flathead Search and Rescue located the victim about 2 a.m. Sunday morning. He was upside down in a tree well and was pronounced dead on scene.
Feb 17, 2018 - Jonathan Torgerson, 62, of Columbia Falls went missing Saturday, Feb. 17, after skiing into a popular backcountry area just outside the boundaries of Whitefish Mountain Resort.
The well-known North Valley Hospital emergency room physician disappeared in the Canyon Creek area off of Flower Point just ahead of a severe storm that brought 30-mph winds and more than a foot of snow to the resort’s summit.
Found in the spring buried by an avalanche. Not a tree well death. Curry said it appears that Torgerson, 62, was caught in the slide on Feb. 17, carried down the mountain and buried.
March 2, 2018 - A 56-year-old Canadian skier died March 2 at Whitefish Mountain Resort after falling into a tree well on an un-groomed but inbounds expert run called First Creek.
In a press release, Flathead County Sheriff Chuck Curry said the man was skiing with a friend when the pair became separated. The friend reported his missing partner to ski patrol and, after a two-hour search, the man’s body was located in a tree well at approximately 3:15 p.m.
The victim’s name is Charles Douglas Herr of Calgary, Alberta
February 26, 2021 - Area off Gooley Point. A Kalispell man died Friday after falling into a tree well just beyond the ski area boundary at Whitefish Mountain Resort (WMR), prompting a search-and-rescue effort that ended in tragedy, according to local law enforcement officials and a resort spokesperson. On Friday, Feb. 26, at approximately 12:05 p.m., WMR Ski Patrol was dispatched to a reported tree-well incident "outside of the ski area boundary," according to a statement WNTR released Friday, although a resort spokesperson said she was still trying to determine the precise location. Ski patrollers searched the area where the individual had last been seen and discovered the victim around 1:35 p.m.
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It normally happens when we're having a good snow year and the snow is not consolidated by traffic. The tree well could be 6-10 feet deep.
I myself have fallen twice in the treed areas and needed help getting out even though not in a well, just due to snow depth. Nothing to push on to stand up. You need to find a compacted area and get your skis (and where did they get to?) to pull yourself out. Pretty exhausting.
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