Hello,
I have been looking for a new little goal which would motivate me to improve my skiing technique and learn new things, ideally finishing with some formal assessment of my overall skiing abilities.
I thought that becoming a ski instructor (Level 1, 2) would be a good goal - the syllabus goes over all techniques, and organisations such as BASI even run technique-improvement courses in order to pass the required exams. Sounds great.
The only problem is - BASI requires 35h + 35h school teaching experience in order to be able to progress through the ranks. As a busy individual with a full time job and zero interest in explaining to children what ski poles are, I don't think that would be a great use of my holidays allowance...
Hence the questions:
1. Is there a way/programme to become a ski instructor (of any level) without interning as an instructor? Or with some substitutions/waivers available? (e.g. participate in giant slalom etc)
Perhaps there is some system (Canadian? American? Etc) which doesn't require teaching experience to achieve the lower qualification levels?
2. If no... Are there any non-instructor certificates which I could reasonably aim for and which would cover a wide spectrum of skiing abilities?
Thank you for your help!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 22-12-22 20:58; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@theriel, I did my 70 hours shadowing in evenings and weekends at a local snowdome.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@theriel,
Is there anything in the Snoworks program that suits?
@theriel, you could get a formal assessment of your skiing abilities from a morning of private lessons with an instructor - tell them to be brutally honest. Maybe an ESF instructor - they don't spend too much time telling people their technique is "awesome" when it clearly isn't. I heard tell of a skier (a Snowhead in the past) who quite fancied his skiing, and decided to become an instructor, only to fail the first course he did because his snowplough was shite. The instructor who told me this story told me that she had told him several times that his basic skills weren't up to it, but he thought she was wrong.
My snowplough is shite too - but I only discovered quite how bad when learning XC skiing and having to stop on a hill on those skinny, long, skis with no edges.
If you want a recommendation for an instructor who will tell you the truth about your ski technique, PM me.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Kenzie - Snoworks seems to have cool programmes, but... I would rather simply hire a private Instructor to teach me what I am missing. Learning is not an issue. Finding a clearly-defined and recognised goal that would be a nice carrot to work towards is...
@pam_w - I have worked with ski instructors and I have quite a good (albeit equally brutal ) idea of my abilities. The problem is - "Mark says your long carving turns are good" is not an exciting-enough goal for me to hit the gym and keep training on the slopes. "Here's a cert confirming that you've achieved XYZ level of Canadian/ Austrian/ North Korean/ Nigerian / whatever Association"... sounds a tiny bit sexier. Yeah, I am a shameless cert collection freak .
Hmmm... Snowsports.at seems to run Level 1+2 two-week courses in English, following the Austrian programme, with re-assessments available... That perhaps could work... Not sure if there are any other options? (other English courses following the Austrian programme, or e.g. Swiss...) Happy to hear opinions (and other suggestions)!
I'm confused. Even the basic BASI levels would need you to at least pretend to be interested in teaching. What did your ski instructors tell you that you needed to improve? If you were interested in improving your maths, would you do a PGCE in the hope that despite failing miserably at the teaching practice in front of a class of thicko year 9s you'd get some tips on brushing up your calculus? If you want to spend a long time working on your snowplough, I guess the basic stages of the BASI training might do the trick. Where are you based? Quite a few Snowheads have written very interestingly about their experience of ploughing through the training courses. I admire their honesty!
As for a goal to work towards - I've always been overwhelmed with those, when I've had ski lessons. Not by the instructors (too professional to give one too many goals) but just from watching the way they get around the mountain. A good instructor always leaves you with something manageable to aim at.
Sounds like you might just want something to put on your wall, assuring you how good you are.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Similarly confused as @pam w,. Seems obvious that a course to enable you to teach others, actually requires you to demonstrate that ability.
If its just your skiing ability you want certifying, I'm lead to believe the SCGB/Freshtracks trips will grade you at the end and allow you to then do an even more expensive trip
After all it is free
After all it is free
Fair.
I guess... In many other sports, there is a clear ladder (and curriculum) you can follow, unrelated to the profession of teaching. In paragliding, you have your Elementary Pilot -> Club Pilot -> Pilot route. In sailing, most globally-recognised orgs have day skipper -> coastal skipper -> offshore -> ocean skipper progression, same in scuba diving (PADI, SDI), kitesurfing (via IKO), freediving (via AIDA) etc.
I just find it helpful to be able to follow a clearly-defined globally-recognised curriculum, verifying my progression with an exam at each level, and allowing me to continue progressing almost anywhere in the world, having some guarantee of consistency. It makes life simpler for any learner, and provides a good point of reference in the journey.
In skiing there doesn't seem to be anything similar - hence my (somewhat failed) attempt at using the instructor courses to achieve the same...
Last edited by After all it is free on Thu 22-12-22 22:49; edited 1 time in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Whilst some folks do do BASI L1 / L2 to improve their skiing a lot of the time is spent on teaching. And the L2 is easier to achieve if you've got some teaching experience. If you definately don't want to teach* probably better to find some other goal. Join a race club? Join Ski Club of GB and try and work your way up their grading checklist?
* I do know quite a few people who did BASI courses not wanting to teach, but loved it and carried on...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
theriel wrote:
Fair.
I guess... In many other sports, there is a clear ladder (and curriculum) you can follow, unrelated to the profession of teaching. In paragliding, you have your Elementary Pilot -> Club Pilot -> Pilot route. In sailing, most globally-recognised orgs have day skipper -> coastal skipper -> offshore skipper progression, same in scuba diving etc.
.
But not in swimming, football, golf, darts, running, cycling...
You could just post video of your skiing and the collective are bound to pass judgement
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sounds like he wants smoke blowing up his ar$e to me
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@theriel, I think you're wasting your time doing instructor qualifications personally, if you have no interest in teaching just wanting to improve.
Not sure what you're hoping from the certificate at the end? But, being a Level 2 instructor isn't a hugely high standard of personal skiing. You'll be a lot better than the majority of skiers on the mountain, but you'll be miles away from a top level skier.
Perhaps investing in a set of Carv inserts for your boots might be an idea? That'll give you a score for your skiing, and different gradings, and you can work your way up the leaderboard to try and get as high as you can?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Maybe just do some race training then the fleche / chamois. If you got to Gold standard at those you'd be a pretty good skier tbh - better than an L2, without any teaching involved.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Thu 22-12-22 23:13; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
You could just post video of your skiing and the collective are bound to pass judgement
Oh yes. Go on. so many armchair critics available here. I am a sailor. I have done various RYA cruising courses over the years, and got as far as Coastal Skipper. I also have advanced Dinghy quaifications but i am under no illusion that I am a good dinghy sailor just because i got a Wayfarer off a lee shore. The way to find out how good you are is to enter your local sailing club dinghy races; a sobering experience. But the RYA cruising qualifications have clear goals, to enable you to be a competent skipper and not too likely to consign your crew to Davy Jones' locker. There is just as much emphasis on being a good "manager" - giving clear instructions, making allowances for a weaker crew member, organising the cleaning of the heads, as there is on one's ability to peel spinnakers. I now sail as regular crew with a skipper of immense experience but also advanced years who can make mistakes which I generally pick up (e.g. momentarily forgetting, in a rock-strewn Brittany estuary, that as we are heading out to sea we need to leave that oddly placed red buoys on our right).
The earlier suggestion to join a dry slope race scene is an excellent one. If someone can get down faster than you, he's better than you are.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I had a lesson with an Austrian instructor once. He took us very carefully down a black run, turn by turn, in a snake. We stopped half way down and he told us this piste was used for downhill races, and our stopping place was where the racers took their first turn. We were awestruck. Asked him whether he could do that. He scoffed. Told us he had a mortgage and three kids - and that there was as big a difference between his skiing, and that of a downhill racer, as between our level and his. A thought-provoking morning.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thank you for all the helpful thoughts!
Quote:
Perhaps investing in a set of Carv inserts for your boots might be an idea? That'll give you a score for your skiing, and different gradings, and you can work your way up the leaderboard to try and get as high as you can?
This does sound like a great idea. I have heard of Carv, although never seen it in real life. But it would provide me with some point of reference I could go back to. I'm not sure if it provides some split between various techniques/environments (e.g. differentiating in its assessments between e.g. short swing turns on a steep slope from long carving turns on a blue etc).
Quote:
Maybe just do some race training then the fleche / chamois.
That's also a good idea. I've never been into the competitive aspect of sports, but a preparation for such an event, in itself, should teach me quite a lot, and provide some goal to aim for (being: "surviving", not "achieving good score").
Quote:
I have done various RYA cruising courses over the years
Then I'm sure you can understand my little quest for a structured, levelled, progression . I don't need things to boost my ego. I'd just prefer to have a GPS with waypoints towards a goal of being a well-rounded skier, rather than doing dead reckoning, vaguely in the right direction, with various people adjusting my sails in hope I get to the port
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
[quote="theriel"]Thank you for all the helpful thoughts!
Quote:
Perhaps investing in a set of Carv inserts for your boots might be an idea? That'll give you a score for your skiing, and different gradings, and you can work your way up the leaderboard to try and get as high as you can?
This does sound like a great idea. I have heard of Carv, although never seen it in real life. But it would provide me with some point of reference I could go back to. I'm not sure if it provides some split between various techniques/environments (e.g. differentiating in its assessments between e.g. short swing turns on a steep slope from long carving turns on a blue etc).
[quote]
It's mainly aimed at longer carving turns than anything else, but there's loads of different exercises it gives you to work on and constant feedback after every run. (arguably too much feedback really)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w wrote:
I am a sailor. I have done various RYA cruising courses over the years, and got as far as Coastal Skipper. But the RYA cruising qualifications have clear goals, to enable you to be a competent skipper and not too likely to consign your crew to Davy Jones' locker. .
I'd just prefer to have a GPS with waypoints towards a goal of being a well-rounded skier, rather than doing dead reckoning, vaguely in the right direction, with various people adjusting my sails in hope I get to the port
Hmm. that does nothing to help me understand what you want. Dead reckoning is not to be scoffed at and that skill is important. I did my RYA cruiser training - and assessments - in the days of navigation not only without GPS but without even those primitive Decca sets. I was once an unprepared and inexperienced stand-in navigator on a cross channel race when the skipper/navigator became unexpectedly incapacitated with sea-sickness. I did kind-of OK, trying to work out what the unfamiliar Decca set was telling me about the tidal set, until the boat's batteries gave up. No nav lights, no Decca, no log. We were mid-Channel on a murky night, and I had to plot an hourly position based on the helmsman's estimate of our speed and course. Plotted an estimated position every hour, then threw up in a bucket handed out to the crew on deck to chuck overboard. Felt like death. Good seamanship dicated that we opted out of the race and fell back on survival and an attempt at landfall on the foggy French coast on the basis of a dodgy glimpsed bearing on the damn big lighthouse at Barfleur (the race destination was St Vaast). My basic RYA training was all I had, and I was only too aware that it was not nearly enough. Also aware that I was relying on the helmsman's eyeball estimation of speed and course steered. He was good, fortunately as we had no instruments except a compass of unknown deviation. We did make it into St Vaast, as a drear dawn made way to day. Anchored under sail, and the recovered skipper who fortunately spoke fluent French, went ashore in a harbour master's RIB (hailed on hand-held VHF) to buy a new battery. I had coped with a challenging night but with a sobering self-assessment of my ability. I was under no illusion - we had been lucky. Whoever planned the race had done it in the knowledge of what the tide would be doing round Barfleur, of course, or we'd never have made St Vaast.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@theriel, I get where you’re coming from, you’re obviously quite a structured sort of person who needs metrics to apply to their improvement. Like others I think the instructor course is not the best way to get what you want. The best way I can think, and it may not involve getting a gold star, is to go on a structured advanced course (I’d say something like an Ali Ross course, though sadly it seems they’re on hold due to family bereavement) or even just get a private lesson and get the instructor to push you as hard as possible. Either way you’ll find yourself skiing with people better than you and that might give you the evidential training you’re looking for. Or not, of course.
Personally I’ve always been humbled when I have a private lesson. I started skiing when I was 6 and living close to the alps, I’m now approaching 50 and have skied an enormous amount in that time, and there’s still a huge amount I can learn from people who are better than me.
I’ve not done RYA or PADI stuff but it seems to me they’re mostly about safety in more and more advanced/dangerous situations, or taking on mor responsibility for the group in those situations.
The same doesn’t apply to resort skiing. Any fool is allowed to throw themselves down a black run.
Maybe therefore the equivalent of those for skiing is the mountain safety/guiding route. But only a small part of that will be skiing.
Or if you only want to improve your skiing on piste then racing as others have said.
But my non expert understanding is there are 4 paths of progression once you’ve graduated from ski school type stuff. 1 informal or 3 formal.
- personal goal setting to ski more of the mountain, more easily with more style (informal)
- instructor
- racer
- mountain guide
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
adithorp wrote:
theriel wrote:
Fair.
I guess... In many other sports, there is a clear ladder (and curriculum) you can follow, unrelated to the profession of teaching. In paragliding, you have your Elementary Pilot -> Club Pilot -> Pilot route. In sailing, most globally-recognised orgs have day skipper -> coastal skipper -> offshore skipper progression, same in scuba diving etc.
.
But not in swimming, football, golf, darts, running, cycling...
That being the key difference.
Swimming, golf, running and cycling, those are all physical skills and execution. Whilst those ‘carts’ of sailing or flying are more knowledge based.
Skiing is physical skill that needs to be executed. A lot more like swimming and golf, your only ‘cert’ is the clock or score.
After all it is free
After all it is free
[quote="swskier"][quote="theriel"]Thank you for all the helpful thoughts!
Quote:
Perhaps investing in a set of Carv inserts for your boots might be an idea? That'll give you a score for your skiing, and different gradings, and you can work your way up the leaderboard to try and get as high as you can?
This does sound like a great idea. I have heard of Carv, although never seen it in real life. But it would provide me with some point of reference I could go back to. I'm not sure if it provides some split between various techniques/environments (e.g. differentiating in its assessments between e.g. short swing turns on a steep slope from long carving turns on a blue etc).
Quote:
It's mainly aimed at longer carving turns than anything else, but there's loads of different exercises it gives you to work on and constant feedback after every run. (arguably too much feedback really)
My first thought was try Carv.
The system has come on leaps and bounds since it's conception. It's constantly improving the way the feedback from the inserts is managed. There's a whole load of online info, and talks too, to help you get the best from them.
It now has video coach - you get someone to film you whilst you are running Carv and then the app matches your movements to the insert info.....I haven't used that yet.
It's also being used by ski instructors as a teaching tool.
But anyway, I'd recommend you at least do some solid research about Carv, watch the vids explaining how it works - might be a better option than the instructor route?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Do we have anyone who has used Carv and could report on their experience?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@pam w, I have Carv inserts.
Last used them in January earlier this year on holiday, and actually had some issues with the tech, but they sorted that, and are improving it all the time.
I just used it on freeskiing mode where it ranks every run you do, gives you a score, tells you what areas you improved on and then gives you a tip to think about on your next run to improve further.
I haven't used it with all the drills and modes, but the functionality is there, and i've no doubt it will improve your carving turns.
It's improtnant to remember that it is specifically piste focussed, and would be absolutely no use if you're wanting to use it in an off piste environment though.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
swskier wrote:
It's improtnant to remember that it is specifically piste focussed, and would be absolutely no use if you're wanting to use it in an off piste environment though.
if you can see properly on piste, you can ski off piste
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof wrote:
swskier wrote:
.
if you can see properly on piste, you can ski off piste
If you can't ski properly on piste you aren't suddenly going to become a off piste god!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
davidof wrote:
swskier wrote:
It's improtnant to remember that it is specifically piste focussed, and would be absolutely no use if you're wanting to use it in an off piste environment though.
if you can see properly on piste, you can ski off piste
Yes but it's different to carving down a piste, and you'll score really badly on carv if you're on big wide skis, skiing off piste, vs a piste/race ski carving down a groomed run.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
To be honest I can see, in part, the OPs point.
I’ve done my BASI level 1 but I can’t get shadowing here in Glasgow. Snowfactor refused and is now closed and no reply from Glasgow ski centre.
Now the crazy thing is, you don’t need to do ski shadowing, it could be working in a ski school or snow sports facility in any position. Eg learning to take bookings.
So I can see the point that similar experiences can count to the 35 hours. For example I’ve booked equipment out, trained numerous students and taught them in an academic and technical environment.
In my current job I assess people’s skills and devise a training program just for them. All are similar skills to the 35 hour parts BASI would accept if it was in a snow dome.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@GlasgowCyclops, I find it odd that they accept that, and IASI is the same, but I would urge anyone looking to then do the Level 2 qualification to do all your hours in a teaching environment, because it pays dividends.
On our L2 the first week of December, 4 out of the 5 of us had a number of teaching hours under our belts, with me the least amount at 100ish hours. The one person that had the least experience really struggled with his teach and subsequently failed on that aspect.
@skimottaret, are you planning another fast track to Level 1 series at Hemel? I found that really useful to not only assess where my skiing is (and to confirm my thinking that I never ever want to teach!) but to also put some basic improvements in place (or at least mark where they needed to occur)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@theriel, if you just want to improve technique in a stepped way, I can heartily recommend the ICESI 4 week all terrain course in Val D’Isere. https://www.icesi.org/4-week-all-terrain-residential-ski-course
In fact you are learning alongside would be instructors, but without the faff of learning to teach.it’s all technique instruction. Mr P and I did it in 2016. Had a great time, with fantastic instruction from the best instructors I’ve ever had, who really get to know you and your foibles. Our skiing improved no end.
In swimming, if you want to see how good you are, you race.
In snowboarding, if you want to see how good you are, you ask yourself 'am I having fun?'
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yep, and on that basis, I was a good snowboarder.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@motyl, Probably not. We have run that course for quite a few years and almost 50 of our clients went onto L1 and 2 courses. Post Brexit the dream of getting an L1 then L2 and doing some part time teaching in the mountains pretty much is gone for Brits. This summer I didn't have enough interest to even run the course.
Anecdotally, I saw very few middle aged people taking L1 exams and gap courses are way down...
For the OP I understand why some people may want an external validation of their abilities in a particular sport : golf handicaps, martial art belts, etc. to gauge their "level". But in my view taking an instructor course isn't the best way to achieve that. As others have suggested perhaps enter a race, take an avalanche awareness course or go on a Ski Club of GB / Eagles Ski Club off piste trip and ask em what level you are at...
SnowSport England tried to do something like this with a "SnowLife" award that could be given out by coaches and ski schools but never took off and died on the vine.
If what you are after is personal development there are loads of providers that offer performance improvement courses, us included, and we will give you an honest assessment of your ability along with video to help you Self assess your own level
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I was just about to suggest the SnowLife awards. While these are aimed more at kids they are open to adults. Getting the top 9* award is roughly equivalent to BASI 2 technical level.
Not sure why you think they haven't taken off. The school I work for have been using them for 10 years and have given out 1000s in that time.
I gave out some to my group that finished today.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@snowrider, I was thinking more for adults and within SSE I haven't seen much activity within the UK Dome or Dryslopes
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. I don't need things to boost my ego. I'd just prefer to have a GPS with waypoints towards a goal of being a well-rounded skier, rather than doing dead reckoning, vaguely in the right direction, with various people adjusting my sails in hope I get to the port 