Should I Keep winter tyres on for Easter Val Thorens???

A snowHead

Hi everyone,

We are driving to Val Thorens for the first week in April, and then from there down south to Calanques (Marseille...) for another week.

Question:

Would you keep winter tires on, or not?

Thanks for your ideas

MontyMM

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@MontyMM, yes,I would.

You could get some new snow falling in Val Thorens while you're there, it is a high altitude resort after all. The only downside is that on your second week driving south to Marseille you may get slightly worse fuel economy but I would expect the difference to be small.

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@MontyMM, I wouldn't in mid April.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@MontyMM, Just think how bad you would feel if lack of winter tyres stopped you getting up to VT. Very Happy

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Yes. Especially if you don't have chains which you could take for use if necessary. It wouldn't be for long, but even a short shower of the wrong sort of snow could bring you to a halt on summer tyres.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Would be worth it if you are arriving or departing from resort early in the morning before any overnight ice on the roads has melted.

After all it is free

Thanks guys, I am convinced

P.S. I am keeping snow chains in the boot all year as "ace in the sleeve" for the muddy campsite fields....

Very interesting question as we drive to Tignes that first week of April too. Have cross climate Mitchelin's so hubby says don't need snow chains. Hopefully not a law to say we need them after start of April??

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@kettonskimum, You're unlikely to need chains, but even with Winter Tyres I think it is a legal requirement to have them.

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@MontyMM, definitely. Still possible to get 30cm snow overnight into May in VT.

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I would keep them on, I'm going at around the same time and have just got hold of some chains as well.( They probably won't be needed but if i didn't have them.....)

@MontyMM, …always a question for us…Easter in the Valais can be blisteringly hot (25 deg c) or 20cms of fresh. There is no legal requirement to have winter tyres in CH but there are requirements in the Jura on our route in France and even without the legal requirement in CH, if you have a shunt then is it regarded by the Cantonal Police as being your fault.

BUT….given that you are going South, you need to think of the following.

Always go with legal requirements (bad stuff happens).

Never gamble with weather. I have known people get it badly wrong (big 4WD on summer tyres rolling down meadows after losing it in 5cms of greasy soft).

While you can keep winter tyres on all year, they are optimised for operation below 10 deg c (they wear like mad at 15-12 deg c)…so….watch your pressures, and run them properly inflated.

No scrubbing when you are driving into higher temps. Ease them round curves, particularly at higher speeds - just go slower and nurse them on the twisty bits, particularly on those fast sweeps off the autoroutes…just drop the speed and nurse them round. Going straight at good pressures, not a huge problem. And don’t overload the car…or perhaps in the South run the car as little laden as you can.

Will we have them on the Yeti when the Grom and I go to CH at Easter? Yes.

Chains is a different matter. VAG say that you can’t use chains on the Yeti. This has been discussed before here. We have never had to use chains even in 20cms of fresh around the hills in the Valais. But we tend to have them in the back to wave at people who ask whether we have them.

In case there is a torrent of ‘yes you can’ and ‘you should only fit them on the front/rear’ I’ve gone into this in a lot of depth. Wringing out the technical information from VAG, for the 4WD Yeti we have the following:

Front-wheel drive
Snow chains must only be mounted on the front wheels.
For technical reasons, it is only permissible to fit snow chains with the following wheel/tyre combinations.
Wheel size - Depth D - Tyre size
6J x 16 50 mm 205 / 55 R16
7J x 16 45 mm 205/55 R16
6J x 17 45 mm 205 / 50 R17

All-wheel drive
Snow chains can be mounted on the wheels on the front and rear axles. To increase the traction (start-up properties), the use of snow chains is also
technically permissible on the rear axle (this means on the front and rear axle at the same time) for the following wheel / tyre combinations
Wheel size - Impression depth D - Tyre size
6J x 16 50 mm 205/55 R16
7J x 16 45 mm 205/55 R16
6J x 17 45 mm 205/50 R17

For technical reasons, it is only permissible to fit snow chains on rear axles with the following wheel / tyre combinations:
Wheel size - Impression depth D - Tyre size
7J x 16 45 mm 215/60 R16
7J x 17 45 mm 225/50 R17

We run 225 50 R17 alloys as OEM fitted, and 215 60 R16 steels as our winter rims and tyres. That gives us the legal protection of the right rolling radius +/- 5%. That means only one set of chains, and terrifyingly, to be fitted to the rear only, according to the official guidance. This is considered VERY bad practice in places like Sweden and Finland. Lots of upset in Yeti community about this, since it really is quite difficult to source the information from VAG. So…we carry chains, but have never had to use them.

You know it makes sense.

We leave the winter type on all year now, unless you want USE ultimate grip in constant use with hot dry conditions, then I seriously doubt you'll notice anything by not changing. Perhaps elevated wear, but that's from driving characteristics (pushing any tire hard will increase wear) rather than any drastic failure of type.

Most winter tires are rated at least to H rating, that's a constant 130mph durability, we never even approach that on public roads in a family car.
Loading, the tire carcass rating, that "95" or similar denoted in specification is the amount of load a tire can safely carry in it's carcass at the correct inflation rate. It doesn't change for different types. Makes no difference if the two tires are same rating.

To OP go with catching the worst case scenario (crashing in snow conditions) all the rest will be fine.

Good advice to be sure of pressures you are using as that's the most important aspect of tire failure on a longer journey. Under inflation will quickly build heat in any tire and cause structural failure.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

If your winter tyres are studded then you are not permitted these after the 1st of April.
Our local police cut us some slack on this if there's still loads of snow around, but you can't rely on Gendarmes or other Police being so tolerant.

A snowHead

@WindOfChange, …studded ‘snow tyres’ very uncommon in UK (common in Finland, Sweden etc), we are talking ‘winter tyres’ here…

A snowHead

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Yes. Take them off when you get home. Simples.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

given temps sub 7C are quite likely ...

We generally keep winters on till end April at least.

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What's the worst that can happen?

If you keep them on: it turns unseasonably warm and you get a high rate of wear, losing perhaps a couple of mm of tread. And the handling is a bit more uncertain compared to having your summers on.

If you take them off: it's cold and snows and you're stuck fast. Trying to negotiate mountain hairpins, your go off the road even with chains on the back because the fronts are summers and have no traction. You're involved in an accident and because you have unsuitable tyres for mountain snow conditions you're deemed liable and the insurer refuses to pay out and you're prosecuted.

You choose.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Much more likely - you won't be able to get right up to your high altitude accommodation, will have to leave the car in an awkward spot, hump your luggage around and then waste good ski time, in all that fresh snow, going back for the car, only to find it's now hidden behind a wall of ploughed snow, which sets like concrete....

I left winter tyres on for ages before I changed my car (as it cost money to swap, and the winters were in better shape than the summers). Wear was negligible - but then I don't drive like an 18 year old superhero. I gave the car to my son at the beginning of lockdown and the tyres are still going strong.

After all it is free

Michelin say it's OK to run winters in summer:

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To the original question, yes definitely keep winters on for the trip.

I think they do wear faster in summer but one of my cars (BMW 120) I leave then on all year round. The other car (Audi S4) I have two sets of wheels so it costs me nothing to change them over myself. The winter tyres on the Audi last a lot longer because they are only used when cold.

Both cars have V rated winter tyres so can run at high speed, useful when driving in Germany.

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I’ll be keeping my winter tyres on for Easter in Sheffield!

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i will probalby drive also to VT or Tignes or no idea in Ostern...i will keep Winter tires till the first week of May.

I have no idea wtat is the legislation in France, or UK.
However for a couple of years i worked in an insurance company (Greece)
There are some cases, where our company denied to pay the damages althouth the driver accepted that it was his fault because he had summer tires and the temp was below 2 C.
They acclaimed that according to the manufacturer bla bla bla the summer tires loose their abilities bla bla when the temperature is 2C or less that 2 C.
If this is true or not, i have no idea (i changed job a couple of months later Very Happy

)
However better safe than sorry

It may be worth stating the heat affect here to help people as it seems uppermost in their decision making in trying to take the best path.

To seperate structural heat from tread heat is important.

Structural heat (the whole tire) is contolled by that structure flexing, too much and heat build up will ultimately lead to the tire failing. This is contolled by the tire load index rating #×× on the sidewall, perhaps 95 as example. This describes how many kilograms that tire can safely be used for at the noted psi. The manufacturer states what this should be for your vehicle along with the psi for load (the rears usually differ for pax and payload) correctly inflated they won't overheat, that's why pressure is important.
You cannot avoid this as being fundamental to keeping them from failing. It doesn't change from one tire to another if they are rated the same. It's not a factor of winter vs summer if they match.

The tread temperature range is in addition to the above. But has to generated by friction with the road surface (assuming you've not overheated the tire by under inflation) as long as you're not driving it into sliding the tire, then it won't adversely cause concern.

You know it makes sense.

Definitely keep them on.

I drove one April to Val D'Isere and it was 27 degrees in the valley, but then I was in Zermatt last April and we got a foot or two of fresh powder. So you never know and I would err on the side of caution.

My wife kept her winters on all last summer and they were fine come this winter although we normally would change them, due to less commuting last year it was less of an issue.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

IF you're hammering down the autoroute to Marseilles (and back) AND the roads have warmed up I'd rather be on summer tyres. It's that last mile or two to VT that MAY be the problem - I know it's high but I might risk it with summers AND chains, providing the car was FWD. I'm going to Flaine (1600m) on 19th March with summer tyres and chains - but I've done the same journey many times in Feb with summers and chains. Slow progress if you need the chains but you get there.

A snowHead

I'm admittedly a peasant (what's the opposite of a petrolhead?) when it comes to driving, but there's no way I could tell, whether from road noise or handling, whether I was on winter tyres or summers. I've driven to the Alps and back many times, at different times of year, often on my own. Winter tyres in summer are much less of a problem than summer tyres in winter.....

A snowHead

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@pam w, Can you even get specific "summer" tyres in the UK? My local depots only stock general purpose tyres (including those for sport) and on occaisions winter tyres. I imagine where there are big temperature differences between summer and winter there may be a market for specialist summer tyres, but cannot see it in the UK.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@johnE, I think the term "summer tyres" refers to the tyres normally sold all year round in the UK I.e. what most people have. They are intended for 7C upwards which, at least where I live, is most days of the year. If you're regularly driving early morning, especially further north, there is a case for using winter tyres. But "summer tyres" will outperform winter tyres on warm roads, driving at speed, in terms of roadholding and stopping distance. Obviously, on icy roads you're much safer with winter tyres.

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No, I just meant "standard issue" tyres, of course. Unless people have four spare wheels they can change themselves (and are boy racer drivers who do a huge mileage in summer) the cost of changing tyres will far outweigh any potential additional wear for keeping winters on all year round.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Easter 2019 I was in VT and when we left it had snowed a decent amount and if we'd not had winters it could have been a bit dicey

After all it is free

I've ran my Nokian (last tyres WRA4) all year round for the past 12 years. I did notice a bit more of a tendency to squeal and slide a touch on tight corners during hot weather but nothing drastic. I now drive from Austria to the UK to work during the summer but as I return in December it makes no sense to change them. In the past my local garage in N Wales charged a fiver to change a tyre so I sometimes used to put my old winter tyres which were worn to the 4.5mm limit back on for the summer.

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[quote="ski3"

That's not true, it only happens at the very extremes of tire performance, both of which example lay substantially outside normal and legal use patterns.

Many of the "winter" tires used are rated with a V speed rating (partly because the original non winter tire specification decides that) which are safely rated to 150mph continuously and without technical compromise.

The scope of most example is so far outside even "driving at speed" category to make no difference.[/quote]

This is the opposite of previous reviews I have seen in various places. Even on a road stopping from 70mph on a dry warm road the summer types will generally stop quicker than the winter types. Speed rating is not a sign of the performance of the tyre per say just the limits it will work within. You can have two "V" tyres with VERY different performance. Are they both "safe" yes... is one safer than the other.. yes

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Should I Keep winter tyres on for Easter Val Thorens???

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