 Poster: A snowHead
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Vail Resorts expands into Europe with planned takeover of Swiss resort
Vail Resorts is expanding into Europe. The operator of 40 resorts across North America and Australia announced late Sunday that it has entered into an agreement to purchase a majority stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG from Andermatt Swiss Alps AG, marking the Colorado-based company’s first strategic investment in a ski resort in Europe. Andermatt-Sedrun is a renowned destination ski resort in central Switzerland, located less than 90 minutes from three of Switzerland’s major metropolitan areas — Zurich, Lucerne and Lugano — and approximately two hours from Milan.
I really hope this doesn't mark the start of a move to change Swiss ski resorts to the Vail business model. If the new owners think they can hike single day lift passes to the region of say £150  then they are in for a rude awakening!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting. They have a reciprocal agreement with Verbier which gives a few days included in Vail resorts. Hopefully we get a few days in Andermatt - super resort
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I doubt they are looking at a price hike - more a prestige "big area" (but at a significant discount to the real Euro powerhouses) they can play with to see if they can become a global operation. Plus a bit of distraction for the analysts from their appalling operational execution this season - a bit of never mind how crap we've been look we're expanding globally to deliver shareholder value.
Of course the Euro ski scene is very different from the NA model - Vail won't be able to cash in on ski school and food & booze monopolies plus accommodation and I suspect that operationally Andermatt is already better run than VR are. Plus y'know European labour laws that will stop them paying bottom dollar to effectively gap year students to run things (maybe they should look at an operation in the UK - sure Grant Schnapps would willingly arrange a carve out from employment law to suit them..)
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
I doubt they are looking at a price hike - more a prestige "big area" (but at a significant discount to the real Euro powerhouses) they can play with to see if they can become a global operation. Plus a bit of distraction for the analysts from their appalling operational execution this season - a bit of never mind how crap we've been look we're expanding globally to deliver shareholder value.
Of course the Euro ski scene is very different from the NA model - Vail won't be able to cash in on ski school and food & booze monopolies plus accommodation and I suspect that operationally Andermatt is already better run than VR are. Plus y'know European labour laws that will stop them paying bottom dollar to effectively gap year students to run things (maybe they should look at an operation in the UK - sure Grant Schnapps would willingly arrange a carve out from employment law to suit them..) |
You do realise that Switzerland isnt in the EU and can you tell us which uk employment laws have been altered since we left the EU
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@robs1, I didn't mention the EU.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @robs1, I didn't mention the EU. |
You said european labour laws as most of europe is in the EU it was implied
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @robs1, I didn't mention the EU. |
You said european labour laws as most of europe is in the EU it was implied
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Er…Andenmatt is great. But….
It’s had ‘hole in the ground into which money has been shovelled’ investment from various sources and is not like Vail buying Nendaz. Or Zermatt. It’s a ‘hidden gem for free riders’ sort of place.
Now, they may think they can turn it around and into something big .. but it’s not exactly a burgeoning resort. It’s about 1.5 hours from Zurich, which is good.
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| robs1 wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @robs1, I didn't mention the EU. |
You said european labour laws as most of europe is in the EU it was implied |
I think you mean assumed. My wording was deliberate, your assumption is the error.
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| valais2 wrote: |
Er…Andenmatt is great. But….
It’s had ‘hole in the ground into which money has been shovelled’ investment from various sources and is not like Vail buying Nendaz. Or Zermatt. It’s a ‘hidden gem for free riders’ sort of place.
Now, they may think they can turn it around and into something big .. but it’s not exactly a burgeoning resort. It’s about 1.5 hours from Zurich, which is good. |
Indeed I've periodically heard stuff about the Egyptian project which sounds like they are now wanting an exit but never knew what has actually transpired
https://www.ft.com/content/a4d80916-fa2d-11e9-98fd-4d6c20050229
Did the world's deepest tube station ever get built for instance?
Maybe it's just easiest for Vail to buy a town that has already sold its soul?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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That is a great way of putting it.
Crans Montana sold to a single company - all sweetness and light on day 1 - swiftly turned to acrimony.
Result = higher prices, fewer pistes and lifts, fewer clients….argh
Changes benefitted….who? Oh I know…lawyers.
Skiing needs constant massive investment in the face of global warming and financial and market crush. Genuinely not where I would advise my pension company to put its clients investments. Resorts which are all year playgrounds - ski, tour, climb, hike, parapente, bike - are those most likely to survive … in some form
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Maybe I have got this wrong but I thought I had read that the development (I had assumed ownership) of the area from Andermatt over the Oberalp to Disentis was a separate set up to the Gemstock area. Certainly all the new hotel & chalet development seems to be aimed at that area.
Swiss labour law is at least as stringent as EU law (part of the treaties between the EU & Switzerland). If you do business there you soon learn how expensive it is to employ anyone, no getting away with "US" type employment practices.
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When comparing Switzerland with any other nation, especially its neighbours, one allways need to think about one thing first: the ridiculous exchange rate of the CHF.
The Swiss Economy is not a normal economy. It’s an economy very much influenced by billions of black money streaming to banks in Zürich, Geneva and Lugano….
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| valais2 wrote: |
| it’s not exactly a burgeoning resort. |
Interesting to read this thread and have to disagree with this.
I've been out to Andermatt last month and also in March 2020. While it is great for freeride and ski touring off Gemstock, the resort has made a huge investment in the Sedran-Disentis area to ensure 'recreational' skiing and you might argue that this place has everything (exc perhaps accom at the budget end of the market). Certainly Vail Resorts will be interested in the property development that has been spectacularly successful so far. They have added 5-star and 4-star hotels, lots of apartments (rules also changed to allow non-Swiss ownership). They have a Michelin star restaurant on the mountain. Golf course in summer.
The history of Andermatt is complex and it has risen and fallen more than once. It may be that they are being too ambitious with their property plans. This image shows how the final area will look - to me those properties look far too close together, but caveat emptor and all that
https://twitter.com/skipedia/status/1503295056089960449
I'll be publishing Episode 93 of The Ski Podcast (www.theskipodcast.com) tomorrow, where I'll discuss in a bit more detail
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Poster: A snowHead
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| iainm wrote: |
[Certainly Vail Resorts will be interested in the property development that has been spectacularly successful so far. They have added 5-star and 4-star hotels, lots of apartments (rules also changed to allow non-Swiss ownership). They have a Michelin star restaurant on the mountain. Golf course in summer.
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Andermatt at least is a pretty cold, barren place even in the Summer. Are they managing to fill the Chedi / Radisson hotels and flog the apartments?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm in Vail at the moment.
A ski pass is $250 a day.
Yes TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS A DAY.
Yes, its a very well maintained resort. But, its pretty soulless.
Their MO has been to make the resort as exclusive as possible.
Exclude your regular types and make it only accessible to those with cash.
I must say, the pistes are wide, the area stunning and its all very well run.
But, you can only base opinion on previous actions, and by that
- Andermatt will become more expensive
- rents will be more likely expensive
- food and drink will consequently rise
- accommodation will rise.
Hopefully if they try to buy in France or Austria, their advances will be rejected. I really hope so.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bit curious that US money is buying a Swiss resort whilst the Swiss are investing heavily in the higher French resorts like Tignes. But then the Swiss have always been good at looking after money (especially other peoples).
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| rossyl wrote: |
I'm in Vail at the moment.
A ski pass is $250 a day.
Yes TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS A DAY.
Yes, its a very well maintained resort. But, its pretty soulless.
Their MO has been to make the resort as exclusive as possible.
Exclude your regular types and make it only accessible to those with cash.
I must say, the pistes are wide, the area stunning and its all very well run.
But, you can only base opinion on previous actions, and by that
- Andermatt will become more expensive
- rents will be more likely expensive
- food and drink will consequently rise
- accommodation will rise.
Hopefully if they try to buy in France or Austria, their advances will be rejected. I really hope so. |
Andermatt annual pass is £921 (granted this includes summer access and offers some discounts on things in the area but from a quick Google search I couldn't see a ski only season pass). Epic season pass is £641. So locals are going to save £280, get 7 free days at skirama dolomiti, 7 free days at 3 valleys, access to all the epic resorts in USA and Canada, and resorts in Australia if you want some summer skiing. I expect there will be plenty of very happy people in andermatt, just as there were in Whistler when Vail came and the cost of skiing went down and they got access to loads more resorts with their epic pass.
The Vail approach is give skiers who want to rack up days cheap season passes at the expense of "holiday skiers" who get screwed over for their 1 week skiing per year. Personally that's fine with me, think of it as a loyalty scheme. The euro resorts have the exact opposite model - cheap day skiing, but relatively expensive season passes in comparison.
I'm not sure why you think Vail are in the exclusivity market. Quite the opposite, they are trying to sell as many season passes as possible. Their passes have arguably made skiing cheaper and gave people the option to visit multiple resorts. Their resorts are busier than ever. Look at somewhere like deer valley or at the extreme Yellowstone club for exclusivity.
I get it hating on Vail is the cool thing to do. But the skiers among us will thank them for their cheap passes!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| I get it hating on Vail is the cool thing to do. But the skiers among us will thank them for their cheap passes! |
Both true. Only the criminally disorganized pay full price. For NA-based skiers it is easy to finish in the money with Epic/Ikon/etc and to approach or beat Alps tix costs. For most of you, you’d need one long trip or two shorts.
The whole world was off its game due to Covid-labor issues, but Vail led the league. They know it, and have announced a $20/hr wage for next season, a major bump which should help (and further exacerbate inflation). Their biggest mess was in my backyard (Stevens Pass) and folks were radioactive. Good people and firms mess up, and we judge them on their recoveries. We’ll see.
FYI Vail was always ranked #1 resort in NA until Whistler got big. Not a place I like but it doesn’t suck.
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…@iainm, …thanks…I think I might be out of date on this and things have turned around…previously I heard some concerns about over investment but with the Commune now saying that the unbuild blocks now are almost fully sold, it looks like they have pulled it all off…the changes to open foreign purchasing were important, and I wonder if people are seeing neutral Switzerland and the chf as a place and currency of refuge in an uncertain world. It would be interesting to see who has bought and whether the resort will suffer the ‘cold bed’ problem (owners who never visit) or whether it will become a vibrant resort.
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Vail itself skis remarkably well if you have local knowledge to beat most of the lift lines by sequencing and timing. But the general vibe of it and Beaver Creek is fake high end. Most of the other owned properties have fewer pretensions and don't really disguise they are all about volume ski factories or feeder hills to get people juiced on a trip to the destination resorts.
Andermatt is a bit of a geographic weird one i.e. less easily accessible than many bigger ski factories. But it's easy to see that for a relatively low $ investment VR are buying themselves a bit of a sandpit, a hedge and a bit of juice for NA passholders ( and possibly bait to annuitize some more Euro passholders)
The daypass price at Vail is a red herring. It's only there to catch the criminally disorganised, the truly price insensitive and to make season passes look like no brainers. Every dirtbag on the Front Range has an Epic or Ikon pass.
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| Quote: |
For NA-based skiers it is easy to finish in the money with Epic/Ikon/etc and to approach or beat Alps tix costs. For most of you, you’d need one long trip or two shorts.
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6 day pass in Europe:
3 valleys - £280
Verbier - £320
Granted their are cheaper options than those, but £641 for unlimited skiing on an epic pass is a crazy deal. Especially when it includes 7 free days at 3 valleys and if you buy it now you get 10 free buddy tickets. One 10 ski day trip to n America and 6 days at 3 valleys and you are already down to £40 per day which is in the ball park for the big euro resorts 6 day passes. Plus spend 10mins one morning and you can probably sell your buddy passes for $50+ each to people queuing for tickets.
Yes they rip off people that can't commit to more than 2 weeks skiing per year. But again, would you rather a ski company supports skiers with cheap season passes or favours the holiday makers that are just doing the odd weekend? Anywhere else it would be considered a loyalty program.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Similarly our affordable leisure flights have been made possible by business travelers paying through the nose….and we’ve all been down with that.
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Looking at the usual school holiday chaos I wonder if there’s a difference between how people ski in Europe and the USA. So European resorts depend more on the one week holidaymakers and less on season tickets? If so is there a risk of biting off the hand that feeds them?
Andermatt maybe different - a smaller resort more dependent on weekenders from Zurich
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Not all European season passes are a rip-off. The Espace Diamant season passes, for example, used to cost the same as two weeks full price, if bought before the end of November. There have been quite a few Snowheads threads where people contemplating "doing a season" in Europe are advised about buying season passes in advance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I wonder if there’s a difference between how people ski in Europe and the USA.
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Perhaps a generalisation but people in USA tend to have less annual leave (no legal minimum, average seems to be around 10-12 days per year), so weekend/long weekend trips are often the norm rather than a full week. MLK Day and presidents Day (national holidays) both fall on Mondays and are usually two of the busiest weekends of the season.
| Quote: |
Andermatt maybe different - a smaller resort more dependent on weekenders from Zurich
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Part of Vails business plan is to buy (or at least get them on the epic pass) small satellite resorts. With the idea being everyone in that area will buy epic passes (solid income on its own) and some of them will do trips to a Vail owned resort (Whistler, Vail etc.) bringing in even more money.
It's likely based on current pricing buying an an epic pass for unlimited skiing at andermatt will significantly undercut the other Swiss ski resorts season cost. I suspect that alone will swing the decision for some. But for those Swiss also considering a n American trip suddenly the epic pass becomes a no brainer.
| Quote: |
Not all European season passes are a rip-off
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I don't think anyone said they were a "rip-off" - it really depends how many days you can personally ski for how good/bad value for money they are. The big euro resorts passes are more expensive than epic passes and only cover one resort Vs multiple. Even espace diamant that you mention is £420 for a season pass on their super promo early rate. For an extra £50 I can get an epic local pass that gets me unlimited skiing at park city, Breckenridge and keystone, plus 10 days between Vail and Beaver creek.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Not all European season passes are a rip-off. The Espace Diamant season passes, for example, used to cost the same as two weeks full price, if bought before the end of November. There have been quite a few Snowheads threads where people contemplating "doing a season" in Europe are advised about buying season passes in advance. |
Our 3 Valleys season passes cost over €1300 each but I certainly don't class them as a rip off. For that price we can ski 6 days in Vail resorts for free (which we did twice, before Covid, and hope to do so again next season); and this season we are on track to get 60 days skiing in the 3 Valleys - which works out at less than €22 per day (or less than the cost of an hour in a snowdome) 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| Not all European season passes are a rip-off. The Espace Diamant season passes, for example, used to cost the same as two weeks full price, if bought before the end of November. There have been quite a few Snowheads threads where people contemplating "doing a season" in Europe are advised about buying season passes in advance. |
Our 3 Valleys season passes cost over €1300 each but I certainly don't class them as a rip off. For that price we can ski 6 days in Vail resorts for free (which we did twice, before Covid, and hope to do so again next season); and this season we are on track to get 60 days skiing in the 3 Valleys - which works out at less than €22 per day (or less than the cost of an hour in a snowdome) |
Good value for you, but most people can't get 60 days in. In terms of best value for money pass, lake Louise spring pass always seemed like a good deal - £335 for up to 63 days so potentially less than £6 per day.
I think the point is thanks to epic and iKON pass competition no ski resort in n America can seriously charge anything like the big euro resorts - full epic pass is about 40% less than a 3 valleys pass, and gives a lot more options. Personally I'd love to see epic and iKON come over to Europe as I think the competition is only going to make skiing cheaper and give us more options.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It would be interesting to see what percentage ski for just one week.
If a pass is say £300 for a week or £600 for pretty much unlimited skiing and at multiple resorts then it seems a bargain. But if you’ve only got one weeks holiday and won’t be casually popping over to North America then the only ‘benefit’ is a wasted £300
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
It would be interesting to see what percentage ski for just one week.
If a pass is say £300 for a week or £600 for pretty much unlimited skiing and at multiple resorts then it seems a bargain. But if you’ve only got one weeks holiday and won’t be casually popping over to North America then the only ‘benefit’ is a wasted £300
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Well you always have the option to buy day passes if they work out cheaper - outside holidays 7 day epic pass is £423. As said earlier in the thread it's a bit different in North America as most people are not doing full weeks. Many pass holders live within driving distance of a resort (their idea of reasonable drive is much further than many of ours - 5 or 6 hours each way for a weekend of skiing is not unreasonable!). A better comparison for UK people might be one of the Scottish resorts (if they had more reliable snow) joining the epic pass.
I suspect once you have a season pass you ski more days trying to make the most of it.
I have some sympathy for 1 week a year skiers stuck with the n American lift pass model. At the same time, as pointed out in the thread we are happy to let business class passengers subsidise our cheap flights. I'm never going to be against a model that priorities skiers wanting to rack up days than the 1 week a year skiers. Of course I'm a bias ski bum that likes doing cheap seasons. If Americans with considerably less annual leave can make it work, I don't see why Europeans with in comparison loads of annual leave wouldn't be able to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| rossyl wrote: |
I'm in Vail at the moment.
A ski pass is $250 a day.
Yes TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS A DAY.
Yes, its a very well maintained resort. But, its pretty soulless.
Their MO has been to make the resort as exclusive as possible.
Exclude your regular types and make it only accessible to those with cash.
I must say, the pistes are wide, the area stunning and its all very well run.
But, you can only base opinion on previous actions, and by that
- Andermatt will become more expensive
- rents will be more likely expensive
- food and drink will consequently rise
- accommodation will rise.
Hopefully if they try to buy in France or Austria, their advances will be rejected. I really hope so. |
Andermatt annual pass is £921 (granted this includes summer access and offers some discounts on things in the area but from a quick Google search I couldn't see a ski only season pass). Epic season pass is £641. So locals are going to save £280, get 7 free days at skirama dolomiti, 7 free days at 3 valleys, access to all the epic resorts in USA and Canada, and resorts in Australia if you want some summer skiing. I expect there will be plenty of very happy people in andermatt, just as there were in Whistler when Vail came and the cost of skiing went down and they got access to loads more resorts with their epic pass.
The Vail approach is give skiers who want to rack up days cheap season passes at the expense of "holiday skiers" who get screwed over for their 1 week skiing per year. Personally that's fine with me, think of it as a loyalty scheme. The euro resorts have the exact opposite model - cheap day skiing, but relatively expensive season passes in comparison.
I'm not sure why you think Vail are in the exclusivity market. Quite the opposite, they are trying to sell as many season passes as possible. Their passes have arguably made skiing cheaper and gave people the option to visit multiple resorts. Their resorts are busier than ever. Look at somewhere like deer valley or at the extreme Yellowstone club for exclusivity.
I get it hating on Vail is the cool thing to do. But the skiers among us will thank them for their cheap passes! |
| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| I get it hating on Vail is the cool thing to do. But the skiers among us will thank them for their cheap passes! |
Both true. Only the criminally disorganized pay full price. For NA-based skiers it is easy to finish in the money with Epic/Ikon/etc and to approach or beat Alps tix costs. For most of you, you’d need one long trip or two shorts.
The whole world was off its game due to Covid-labor issues, but Vail led the league. They know it, and have announced a $20/hr wage for next season, a major bump which should help (and further exacerbate inflation). Their biggest mess was in my backyard (Stevens Pass) and folks were radioactive. Good people and firms mess up, and we judge them on their recoveries. We’ll see.
FYI Vail was always ranked #1 resort in NA until Whistler got big. Not a place I like but it doesn’t suck. |
You're not really comparing apples with apples.
Also I'm unsure why someone who skis for a week in a resort is not a skier by your reckoning!
1 Week 3Vallees = EUR 330
1 Week Vail using someone else's Epic Pass Buddy Passes = $150 a day = USD 891
This was the cheapest method to buy a pass, in advance, that we could find. Note, if you didn't know someone with an Epic Pass it would be more expensive.
(Note if you look at passes on their website now, they are heavily discounted for end of season)
Even heavily discounted is $804 for a week. So not sure where the £423 quote has come from.
As for hating on Vail. Its not cool. Its been my experience here in 5 days and my family's experience here who have been here for 3 weeks.
Everywhere we go, staff complain about Vail management.
Ski instructors who have been here for 25yrs.
Ski instructors who have been here for one year.
The guys who own the fancy Wine shop.
Servers in restaurants.
Etc etc etc
They all complain.
As someone in Vail on holiday, it's not going exactly conducive to having fun, when everytime you have a chat with staff they tell you how rubbish management are.
Putting up ski instructor salaries, is a band aid situation for the real problem - housing.
Anyway. None of that concerns me. What does is:
- if I want to ski here for a week it costs near x3 the cost of 3Vallees
- Food on the mountain is atrocious and expensive. $25 for chicken nuggets and chips. Also, it's not nice.
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@rossyl, I know you probably don't want to be told this but you could have spent around $550 on an Epic local pass and had 10 days in Vail/BC plus virtually unlimited days in Breck & Keystone. That's where the being organised before pass deadlines comes in. It's not a secret - it's been the same for more than 10 years in the US.
I hate on Vail Resorts as much as the next man for their penny pinching skier last philosophy but moaning about the pass price is not really the problem (in fact a popular moan in the US is the season passes are too cheap so too many people crowd out days that would otherwise be less busy).
This season has brought to a head issues that have been present in the US resort industry for many years. As you say the real underlying issue is housing and cost of living in ski resorts where essentially the rich (including tourists and Air BnB landlords etc) have forced up the market reducing the possibility of enough service industry staff being around to serve them. VR didn't invent this, Covid has accelerated it but they sure as hell haven't been proactive in developing adequate staff housing or paying living wages.
Full disclosure I've skied in the US and Canada on a full Epic pass this season and got my daily pass cost well below what an Arlberg lift ticket cost me this Saturday and probably approaching a more minor European resort. I still think Vail screwed the pooch this season.
PS Pro tip for Vail catering - take your own steak, burgers or brats and beers up the mountain. Stash you pack at Henry's Hut and grill them on the free BBQ grills.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| iainm wrote: |
When I was there in March, they told me they only have two unsold apartments of those currently built, so sales are certainly going well. |
Not to be too cynical but isn't that a classic sales playbook - last one left, limited time offer, don't miss out?
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I’m not convinced BYO grills will catch on with many European holiday makers!
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Just spoken to friends in CH … we both feel Andermatt previously had wind, rocks, cold aspect, brilliant off piste and military barracks. They now think it has wind, rocks, cold aspect, brilliant off piste and lots of new expensive hotels and appartments. Might work. Sound of Vail rolling dice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, timing. I think Vail stop flogging the 7 day Epic about the same time as full season passes. Lesson is decide if you're skiing in N America by the end of November and buy your pass then (you don't need to decide on exact resort or dates by then of course).
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No idea, but it isn’t a stretch to think that VR is awash in cash, and if true, they need to put it to work. This may sound speculative, especially to you who know Andermatt (I don’t), but to me this does not sound crazy, especially if there’s a real estate play involved. Or maybe the CEO‘s mother-in-law lives in Switzerland!
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