The old Rosskarbann 4 man chair is being replaced right now with another gondola... why gondolas everywhere - (I feel like a Monty Python sketch here)? I prefer a chair, much less faffing about.
I do like Obergurgl though for the total lack of queues and runs that don't mogul up in the afternoon, and hopefully off in December
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Gondolas can be used in summer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Aha - good point - probably why this one is being changed to a gondola as it runs right from where many of the hotels are
Gondolas are used more often from base stations as they are more flexible, can also be used by foot passengers and sometimes even by cyclists in summer. They are also a better option in poor weather. Some lifts offer a "chondola" where both chairs and gondolas operate on the same ropeway with separate loading areas.
"..sometimes even by cyclists in summer..." - This ; ski resorts are looking to encourage Summer visitors and tapping in to the Cycling community.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
As above, chairlifts (even the old single man dinnerplate style chairs) can and often are used by hikers and bikers in summer.
But the advantages of gondolas, especially for a high, cold, weather-exposed resort like Obergurgl are:
1. Gondolas can be run faster than chairs
2. Are much more comfortable in snow storms etc (especially for kids, and families are important business for Obergurgl)
3. I believe can be safely operated in higher winds
4. Less chance of people (small kids, beginners) messing up getting on the lift and/or stuff (coats, backpack straps) getting stuck in them = safer, and need to be stopped less (= again more people up the mountain faster)
After all it is free
After all it is free
Obergurgl is also very exposed so it gets very windy often, especially in Dec and Jan. They also are marketing themselves as "family friendly" and gondolas seem better with small children
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Was wondering what the comparative costs are. I had assumed a gondola was more expensive than an 8 man chair, but maybe not that much difference as
- fewer (larger) pylons for gondolas (can be seen now on Festkogel webcam, plus work going on at top station)
- they run a bit faster so fewer units needed for same uplift capacity
- 10 man gondolas again mean fewer units and they won't cost 25% more than 8 man gondolas
- 8 man bubble chair units cannot be that much cheaper than a gondola cabin
- both come off the rope and need storage, maybe more room required for storage of gondolas (for the new Obergurgl gondola that storage may have to be at the top station as there isn't much room outside the Edelweiss&Gurgl)
- The intermediate station on the new lift will cost a lot more than an intermediate chair one though. Obergurgl is the only resort where I have seen intermediate chair stations (2 off), one is like being in a cowshed
Sorry - the mechanics and logistics of lifts fascinates me
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But the cost also has to be measured against use. If the lift is also available for 4+ months in summer for walkers, cyclists and sightseers, then any additional cost would soon be recovered. Summer seasons are now almost as busy as winter seasons, and so equally important.
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Having skied in Obergurgl for a week with high wings and temps down to -26 deg C (exc. windchill effect) resulting in my lips cracking and bleeding I can see why they go for gondolas.
Don't understand why chairlifts can't be used in the summer by walkers and MTBers though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DB wrote:
Having skied in Obergurgl for a week with high wings and temps down to -26 deg C (exc. windchill effect) resulting in my lips cracking and bleeding I can see why they go for gondolas.
Don't understand why chairlifts can't be used in the summer by walkers and MTBers though.
I've had -25C in Ischgl plus wind chill... and they are all chairs above the 3 village gondolas. Lifts to the ridge from the Idalp bowl fairly often closed - they even have a back up set of chairs with no bubbles for one of the lifts, and with holes in the back to reduce drag. If it's windy enough to need those chairs, who is going to get on them?
I'm surprised they are still investing in a new gondola given that last season had no lift income (I don't think the lifts were ever open), and the lift passes aren't that more expensive there, and lift utilisation a lot lower than most resorts. The Festkogel gondola was also due to be replaced, but that's been delayed
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Glungezer, one of our local ski areas, has been replacing a couple of old chairlifts with a gondola (from the carpark) and a mixed gondola/large chair (from the mid station) over the last couple of seasons. This is an area where it is necessary to download the bottom section for most of the season. Prior to the new lifts, skis went on the side of the chair in front, and you and your buddy (it was a 2-seater), now as pedestrians sans skis, would launch yourself out of the chair at the base station, into the arms of two large men
I'm glad this is now a gondola. It makes everything more dignified.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I remember the old chairs, which didn't detach and didn't even have a rolling carpet for joining. So I assume that double in Glungezer was one of those.
I think we are spoilt with fast chairs almost everywhere, certainly in Austria
I remember when a 3 man chair in Kitzbuhel was considered innovation back in the 80s. That chair was still there about 5 years ago, but has since been replaced.
I also remember the single chair up the Hohe Salve (?) in Soll.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
buchanan101 wrote:
I remember the old chairs, which didn't detach and didn't even have a rolling carpet for joining. So I assume that double in Glungezer was one of those.
I think we are spoilt with fast chairs almost everywhere, certainly in Austria
I remember when a 3 man chair in Kitzbuhel was considered innovation back in the 80s. That chair was still there about 5 years ago, but has since been replaced.
I also remember the single chair up the Hohe Salve (?) in Soll.
Sheer luxury...the old Sportinia lift in Sauze D'Oulx was a half-chair, half-T-bar when I first went skiing in 1973! Hard to imagine nowadays!
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LOTA wrote:
Sheer luxury...the old Sportinia lift in Sauze D'Oulx was a half-chair, half-T-bar when I first went skiing in 1973! Hard to imagine nowadays!
We are getting to "cardboard box in middle of t' road" territory here, but how does a half chair/half T work?
I do remember a poma in sauze that went right through the middle of nowhere; falling off that could have been problematic
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buchanan101 wrote:
LOTA wrote:
Sheer luxury...the old Sportinia lift in Sauze D'Oulx was a half-chair, half-T-bar when I first went skiing in 1973! Hard to imagine nowadays!
We are getting to "cardboard box in middle of t' road" territory here, but how does a half chair/half T work?
I do remember a poma in sauze that went right through the middle of nowhere; falling off that could have been problematic
You got my reference! It was half and half, if I recall correctly. 30 or so chairs followed by 30 or so t-bar hangers. The next time we went there (not been back since 1977), the t-bars had been replaced with chairs.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
".....the old Sportinia lift in Sauze D'Oulx was a half-chair, half-T-bar..."
That's sheer luxury
My first lift was a Rope Tow ; Skiers were given a little t shaped metal device (clipped to ski pole when not needed) which was used to 'snag' the rope for you to be then dragged up the slope. Had to develop a good technique to disengage.!
It might be because 10 person gondolas are currently the most cost effective lifts in terms of persons per hour, efficiency of loading, downloading, number of pylons, accessibility and customer safety. They are also arguably more future proof. You don’t want to be stuck on an exposed chair in really cold weather. However, there is always a downside and Covid has revealed one of their big weaknesses.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks - I kind of suspected they didn't cost any more than a bubbled/heated seats 8 man chair for the same uplift for the very reasons you suggest
The current 4 man chair they are replacing does not have a capacity issue though - occasionally a short queue at mid station late in the day as it's the only way back from the TopExpress (save a steepish path ski route). I guess Obergurgl doesn't like doing any sort of queues - makes up for the short opening hours. Mid station to the top of the lift seems a bit short to be taking skis off and on...A 6 man chair would have sufficed, but there will be other reasons as you suggest. Maybe 6 man fast chairs are so last decade?
Ironically the only other place I've seen any sort of queue at Obergurgl (apart from the under capacitied Top Express - it only has 50% capacity of a normal bubble) is at the new 10 man gondola from the Motorcycle museum.
Top "Express" is 15 mins out of the day each way - thinking instead of taking the bus to Hochgurgl from right outside hotel this year
After all it is free
After all it is free
Has anyone used the old T-Bar drag lift in Hochgurgl at the bottom of the black 22 run ?
If ever a lift needed upgrading it's surely this one.
Be warned it's very steep.
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buchanan101 wrote:
I've had -25C in Ischgl plus wind chill...Lifts to the ridge from the Idalp bowl fairly often closed - they even have a back up set of chairs with no bubbles for one of the lifts, and with holes in the back to reduce drag. If it's windy enough to need those chairs, who is going to get on them?
At a guess people who find themselves on the wrong side of the Austrian/Swiss border and don't fancy finding a bed in the other resort for the night/joining everyone else in the same boat trying to get an 80km taxi/bus.
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Jammy 07 wrote:
Has anyone used the old T-Bar drag lift in Hochgurgl at the bottom of the black 22 run ?
If ever a lift needed upgrading it's surely this one.
Be warned it's very steep.
I've been there 4 times and haven't used it yet - though it looks like it's been closed all season this year. The top part that only ever opens for about a week a year looks horrendous
The other T bar up from where the motorcycle museum was bad enough.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mjit wrote:
buchanan101 wrote:
I've had -25C in Ischgl plus wind chill...Lifts to the ridge from the Idalp bowl fairly often closed - they even have a back up set of chairs with no bubbles for one of the lifts, and with holes in the back to reduce drag. If it's windy enough to need those chairs, who is going to get on them?
At a guess people who find themselves on the wrong side of the Austrian/Swiss border and don't fancy finding a bed in the other resort for the night/joining everyone else in the same boat trying to get an 80km taxi/bus.
True - the Swiss side should be less windy given that it faces SE, and there are 3 possible routes up that way
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The Vorderer Wormkurgel T-bars haven't been running the last 7 years I've been there, are they only on the map so that they can count those runs in the total piste length available maybe?
It does get a bit boring with taking skis off and on and the walk out of the top station of the new Rosskarbahn bubble is a bit longer than ideal.
If the snow is poor at the bottom it does mean that ski school can go up on the blues higher up but still download at the end of the day instead of being confined to the Steinmanbahn / Gaisburg area which gets bumpy and crowded in the pm.
Noticed that ski route 9 from the Rosskarbahn mid station to the Nederhutte was getting pisted on a regular basis this year so it was easier to avoid going back up after returning from Hochgurgl.
The other thing that needs updating in Obergurgl is the playlists - Christ haven't those 80's soft rock compilation cassettes stretched and worn out yet?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@ol_smokey, I've seen the bottom T bar run a fair bit when there. I've only ever seen the top one open on the interactive piste map for a short time; I think it's so they can say there's a functional lift there so they can upgrade it sometime in the future rather than ask to build a new one. Lifts this year may also be shut because of staff shortages; 3 lifts normally open in Zell am See were shut last month and my instructor said it was due to a shortage of staff
Shame that Rosskarbahn is now a gondola as getting on at the mid station was quite a nice little loop (with at least 3 alternatives - blue, red and the very much non-black, red at best black run) but not long enough to be doing the skis off/on every time, especially now you say the walk out is a bit too long.
Yes thought ski school download could be a reason. Hope they don't go down Ski route 9 as that's rather steep and narrow for a road type run
Anyway, off in 10 days - hopefully still some snow...hasn't snowed for quite a while now - wonder what state the snow will be in
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@buchanan101, I don't think it's just Obergurgl that's obsessed with gondola's it's an Austria wide thing it seems, for all the reasons above it probably makes sense for the operators, but personally i'd much rather be outside in all weathers rather than skis on/ off and messing about.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Markymark29 wrote:
@buchanan101, I don't think it's just Obergurgl that's obsessed with gondola's it's an Austria wide thing it seems, for all the reasons above it probably makes sense for the operators, but personally i'd much rather be outside in all weathers rather than skis on/ off and messing about.
About half the lifts at Obergurgl are now gondolas. In other places - Ischgl for example - they are only used as access (Ischgl only has 3 - I don't count the little rump lift left with the smallest cabins I've ever seen). Saalbach has quite a lot, but mainly (only?) ones that take you all the way up the mountain (ok, ok, not counting the two really short link ones, and one short one above Hinterglemm...OK, ok, I'm losing the argument slightly). On balance yes I prefer chairs as well.
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At least you will have the benefit of colder mornings due to clocks going forward.
We had slush at the motorcycle museum at 12pm one day so if you want to ski to to the downhill grill I'd make that 1st coffee stop of the day or just catch the bus down to Hochgurgl for 1st lifts. Hochgurgl seemed to be more affected by the sand than Obergurgl.
Yeah the mid station loops aren't quite as much fun nowadays.
I think Ski Route 9 pisteing is because Blue 6 can be murder from 3:30pm getting down with snakes of fallen children & beginners everywhere. They even pisted one of the ski routes off the Hohe Mut run last week - never seen that before!
Have fun and oh er "What ski's for slushy bumps?"
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Just a few more details on the T-bar mentioned earlier.
Both legs were open Jan 2020 and so we decided to give it a whirl. Nice black run down with the lower part un groomed but still not too tricky. Once at the drag lift it was one person at a time only and you had to take it on your left side. The bar that goes across your backside is old style short so that made it uncomfortable, probably should have stuck it between my legs but quickly it became too steep to do so. Really hard work to make it to the top and the 3 of us that did it said never again.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Jammy 07 wrote:
Just a few more details on the T-bar mentioned earlier.
Both legs were open Jan 2020 and so we decided to give it a whirl. Nice black run down with the lower part un groomed but still not too tricky. Once at the drag lift it was one person at a time only and you had to take it on your left side. The bar that goes across your backside is old style short so that made it uncomfortable, probably should have stuck it between my legs but quickly it became too steep to do so. Really hard work to make it to the top and the 3 of us that did it said never again.
Was the very short very steep top bit open - goes off at almost right angles to the main T bar? That's the bit that is rarely open and accesses a red round the side of the mountain. The bottom T bar has two sections itself I (i.e. you can join after the end of the blue runs and above the last part of the black run that I think you say was unpisted)
Just a few more details on the T-bar mentioned earlier.
Both legs were open Jan 2020 and so we decided to give it a whirl. Nice black run down with the lower part un groomed but still not too tricky. Once at the drag lift it was one person at a time only and you had to take it on your left side. The bar that goes across your backside is old style short so that made it uncomfortable, probably should have stuck it between my legs but quickly it became too steep to do so. Really hard work to make it to the top and the 3 of us that did it said never again.
Was the very short very steep top bit open - goes off at almost right angles to the main T bar? That's the bit that is rarely open and accesses a red round the side of the mountain. The bottom T bar has two sections itself I (i.e. you can join after the end of the blue runs and above the last part of the black run that I think you say was unpisted)
We just did the 2 sections that go to the top of black 22 and not the final part that takes you to the red 21 you asked about.
Can't remember if it was open or not to be honest but I think probably not.
Seems strange that they haven't upgraded the drag lifts that serve that part of the mountain as it's nice terrain.
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