 Poster: A snowHead
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So I have been waxing my skis for a while but I never bothered with sharpening the edges. I normally get them sharpened in a ski shop when I feel they need sharpening. After some research and reading various blogs and forum (including this one of course) I come to the conclusion that sharpening the side edges of seems manageable.
I have a few questions (I did do a search on the forum before asking so hopefully not wasting anyone’s time)
Do I need vices to sharpen my skis? When I wax my skis I just rest them on two chairs sort of placed back to back at some distance apart. Obviously it’s difficult to balance skis on edge on a chair. Can I lean my skis against a wall to sharpen them instead? Also a side question: why are ski vices so expensive??  If it’s a necessity any good ones to recommend? I saw on spyderjon’s website the Jaws of the Beast set but they are quite pricey are they really worth it?
I’ve got confused when people say files do they mean file like these or diamond files. Can I get away with just using diamond files?
What’s the difference between an alu-oxide stone and a gummi stone? I have a hard and a soft version of the latter but don’t have the former.
Spyderjon suggests to use a marker to gauge the edge angle in one of his guides. When I file the edge, can I also use a marker pen to mark the edge as a “guide” so as to not take off too much material? Just worried I might be taking off too much and I don’t have old skis to practice on. Also otherwise how would I know the edge has been sharpened? How many passes do I need to make?
One pair of my skis are new and I have been skiing on them for two weeks. I’m not comfortable to do the sidewall planning myself. If I get a shop to sharpen my edges for the very first time does that mean I can continue to sharpen until the edges wear out which will necessitate another sidewall planning?
As to the actual sharpening I came across this thread
| Fish_Head wrote: |
Like most on here I listen to Spyderjon who's opinion I and many others trust, I had a good chat with Jon and he advised:
1. Sharpening the whole length of the ski to start
2. If they do get a bit hooky, increase base angle slightly 25mm either side of the contact point, slightly means a turn or two tape around the base edge angle guide to increase the angle by less than one full degree i.e. .2ish
3. Ski, if needed repeat step 2 as required
4. If required, very lightly run gummy 3 times at 45 degrees between the end of the changed base angle area and the tip of the ski
5. If tails hooky repeat above steps as for tips
Spyderjon has always been very generous with his time which is why I post these queries on the forum, this way thousands of others potentially benefit from the one phone call and those of us interested in tuning can increase our knowledge base.
Having said the above I am always open to listening to others opinions if they bring something to the table with the experience to back it up
Thanks to you all for your contributions to this thread
Jason |
Why do we have to sharpen the tip and the tail (i.e. the parts where the rocker kicks in) if they are not in contact with snow? Also I’ve seen debate whether the tip and tail need to be detune after sharpening (sort of go back to my question why we need to sharpen the tip and tail?).
In terms of tool I’ll need
2 x Metal guides (I have three pairs of skis at different side angles)
Diamond files 200 grit and 600 grit (do I need others?)
1 x Spring clamp (1 is enough right?)
Anything else? Do I need masking tape?
I have hard and soft gummi stones and I actually do have a one of those plastic adjustable edge guide which snowheads seem to hate with passion. I understand it’s imprecise but then will it matter that much? I’m not racing or anything. I’m not sure if I will notice the difference (I may, just that I’m not sure if I will) if the edge angle is say +/- 0.2 degrees say. When I take my skis for sharpening some shops never ask for the angle and when I ski on them afterwards I can notice the difference but I just assume that’s from the newly sharpened edges rather than angle differences.
Thanks!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 17-02-22 16:58; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@euanovsky, I don't see a file in your list of tools.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| euanovsky wrote: |
So I have been waxing my skis for a while but I never bothered with sharpening the edges. I normally get them sharpened in a ski shop when I feel they need sharpening. After some research and reading various blogs and forum (including this one of course) I come to the conclusion that sharpening the side edges of seems manageable.
> It's definitely manageable!
I have a few questions (I did do a search on the forum before asking so hopefully not wasting anyone’s time)
Do I need vices to sharpen my skis? When I wax my skis I just rest them on two chairs sort of placed back to back at some distance apart. Obviously it’s difficult to balance skis on edge on a chair. Can I lean my skis against a wall to sharpen them instead? Also a side question: why are ski vices so expensive?? If it’s a necessity any good ones to recommend? I saw on spyderjon’s website the Jaws of the Beast set but they are quite pricey are they really worth it?
> It's much, much easier to clamp a ski when working on the edges. You can use a workmate; screw together some F clamps (one to clamp onto a work surface, the other to clamp to the ski); a proper set of ski vises or even just carefully hold them.
I’ve got confused when people say files do they mean file like these or diamond files. Can I get away with just using diamond files?
> Generally a b*stard file is used to remove most material initially and then diamond stones are used to polish the edges after that.
What’s the difference between an alu-oxide stone and a gummi stone? I have a hard and a soft version of the latter but don’t have the former.
> You use the all-oxide stone to remove bumps in both side and base edges (generally after hitting rocks) - they are cheaper than wearing out your diamond stones. A gummi stone is much softer and used to remove hanging burrs after sharpening (although I prefer to use a diamond stone to remove the burr)
Spyderjon suggests to use a marker to gauge the edge angle in one of his guides. When I file the edge, can I also use a marker pen to mark the edge as a “guide” so as to not take off too much material? Just worried I might be taking off too much and I don’t have old skis to practice on. Also otherwise how would I know the edge has been sharpened? How many passes do I need to make?
> If you can't attend one of Jon's courses then his online shop has a video for sale for about £11 - I strongly suggest that you watch this!
One pair of my skis are new and I have been skiing on them for two weeks. I’m not comfortable to do the sidewall planning myself. If I get a shop to sharpen my edges for the very first time does that mean I can continue to sharpen until the edges wear out which will necessitate another sidewall planning?
> You may not need to sidewall plane unless your edge is quite worn or you want to change to a more aggressive edge angle (and even then you can gently use an adjustable angle edge tool set to about 85 degrees to remove most of the sidewall)
As to the actual sharpening I came across this thread
| Fish_Head wrote: |
Like most on here I listen to Spyderjon who's opinion I and many others trust, I had a good chat with Jon and he advised:
1. Sharpening the whole length of the ski to start
2. If they do get a bit hooky, increase base angle slightly 25mm either side of the contact point, slightly means a turn or two tape around the base edge angle guide to increase the angle by less than one full degree i.e. .2ish
3. Ski, if needed repeat step 2 as required
4. If required, very lightly run gummy 3 times at 45 degrees between the end of the changed base angle area and the tip of the ski
5. If tails hooky repeat above steps as for tips
Spyderjon has always been very generous with his time which is why I post these queries on the forum, this way thousands of others potentially benefit from the one phone call and those of us interested in tuning can increase our knowledge base.
Having said the above I am always open to listening to others opinions if they bring something to the table with the experience to back it up
Thanks to you all for your contributions to this thread
Jason |
Why do we have to sharpen the tip and the tail (i.e. the parts where the rocker kicks in) if they are not in contact with snow? Also I’ve seen debate whether the tip and tail need to be detune after sharpening (sort of go back to my question why we need to sharpen the tip and tail?).
> When you turn, you should find quite a lot of your ski in contact with the snow!
In terms of tool I’ll need
2 x Metal guides (I have two pairs of skis at different side angles)
Diamond stones 200 grit and 600 grit (do I need others?)
> I would get a metal b*stard file in addition (you might already have one with your adjustable edge guide)
1 x Spring clamp (1 is enough right?)
Anything else? Do I need masking tape?
I have hard and soft gummi stones and I actually do have a one of those plastic adjustable edge guide which snowheads seem to hate with passion. I understand it’s imprecise but then will it matter that much? I’m not racing or anything. I’m not sure if I will notice the difference (I may, just that I’m not sure if I will) if the edge angle is say +/- 0.2 degrees say. When I take my skis for sharpening some shops never ask for the angle and when I ski on them afterwards I can notice the difference but I just assume that’s from the newly sharpened edges rather than angle differences.
> What you may notice (although it may depend upon your ski and how hard the snow is), is that a slightly higher edge angle can give you grip on hard snow which you used to skid on - I tend to put an 87 degree side edge on my skis now and find it makes a dramatic difference for me. However, I suggest that you start with your manufacturers edge angle and adjust from there if needed.
Thanks! |
Hope this helps!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @euanovsky, I don't see a file in your list of tools. |
Sorry where I said diamond stones above I meant diamond files (are they not the same thing?) Now edited.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@euanovsky, TBF, you had asked whether you needed conventional files as well.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @euanovsky, TBF, you had asked whether you needed conventional files as well. |
Thanks I guess I'm a bit confused with the terminology. Are diamond stones and diamond files the same thing? And are files the same thing as diamond files? Or do files mean b*stard files?
Can I sharpen my skis with something like this and polish with the 600 grit version or do I need something like this then polish with the 200 and 600 grit diamond files?
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@oui4ski, very helpful thanks - I've been meaning to do one of Jon's tuning courses but haven't got a chance to. I'm based in London so it's quite a track to go up. I was looking at the £11 video but was wondering if it'd be as good as attending the course!
Regarding your last point re edge angle noted. I have three pairs of skis and just checked on Jon's website they are all of different edge angles. I think I'll stick with the manufacturers' angles. I can feel they all ski differently I just thought it's down to the skis (which is probably true) and not the edge angles!
I've been skiing for 20+years but never know much of the hardware stuff so these are all very exciting for me!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@euanovsky, while Jon's training courses are indeed very good, alternatives are available. I did the one down at the Skiers Lounge nr. Horsham, and it was excellent.
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| euanovsky wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @euanovsky, TBF, you had asked whether you needed conventional files as well. |
Thanks I guess I'm a bit confused with the terminology. Are diamond stones and diamond files the same thing? And are files the same thing as diamond files? Or do files mean b*stard files?
Can I sharpen my skis with something like this and polish with the 600 grit version or do I need something like this then polish with the 200 and 600 grit diamond files? |
Basically it goes like this
a. Alu-oxide stone (not gummi) to take off work hardened edge damage that will otherwise kill your files
b. (optional) coarse (metal) file to set edges or take off more material per pass if edges are really dull
c. fine metal file for main sharpening duty
d. (arguably optional) diamond or diamonds to polish the edge - perhaps lasts longer, perhaps faster
e. (optional) gummi to detune (I don't)
Files and diamond files aren't the same.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| turbosmurf wrote: |
.........
Basically it goes like this
a. Alu-oxide stone (not gummi) to take off work hardened edge damage that will otherwise kill your files
b. (optional) coarse (metal) file to set edges or take off more material per pass if edges are really dull
c. fine metal file for main sharpening duty
d. (arguably optional) diamond or diamonds to polish the edge - perhaps lasts longer, perhaps faster
e. (optional) gummi to detune (I don't)
Files and diamond files aren't the same. |
You've missed one vitally important step.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The beer ? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yep, the hanging burr removal was missing.
Side edge work should be:
1. Alu-oxide to remove hardened skiing burrs and rock dings
2. Metal file until a very slight hanging burr is raised. This is critical because if a hanging burr isn't raised the edge is still blunt. Most DIY'ers don't remove enough material and it may take one pass or multiple passes depending upon the condition of the edge - but the important thing is that a slight hanging burr must be created. A medium cut/16tpcm file is ideal for most. Coarser files are great for fast metal removal if the ski is very blunt or when increase the side edge angle but should be switched to a medium or fine file before the hanging burr is raised to avoid having striations in the edge. If the sidewall materail is clogging the metal then the sidewall is going to need trimming back a tad to create some clearance before the metal filing can recommence.
3. Diamond file/stone (used wet with either a proper non-oil based diamond cutting fluid or water). How many grades are used depends upon your performance requirments, time and budget. A single diamond solution would be a 400grit. A two diamond solution would be a 200 and 600grit - which gives an excellent transition from the medium file. Racers will usually use multiple diamonds (or cermics stones or Arkansas stones) to get the edge as smooth as possible. Metal filing leaves microscopic peaks'n'troughs (have a look at the side edges of most brand new skis and you'll see machining marks left from the factory tune). The peaks are unsupported by metal either side so will burr over in use sooner rather than later so the more the edge is honed the more durable the edge will be. If tuning is done on a 'little and often' basis (which it should be) then the metal file could be skipped as a 100 or 200grit diamond will probably take off enough material, ie to create the slight hanging burr - but if a hanging burr can't be raised then you should go back to the metal file.
4. Remove the hanging burr. The punter method is to use a hard gummi along the base edge angle but the pro method is to run a medium-smooth diamond along the base edge angle followed by an extremely light 45 degrees pass to ensure that the hanging burr is fully gone and no part of it has been pushed over the edge.
5. Optional. A few light passes of a hard gummi at the contact points to detune. Detuning is a legacy from the old straight ski days and if the base edge angle is properly set full length and the hanging burr fully removed then it shouldn't be necessary. And if the ski is a bit hooky then increasing the base edge angle slightly at the contact point(s) gives a more progressive edge engagement but still gives full length sharpeness. Most shops machine service and base grind even though it's not necessary and the machines often don't cut a full base edge angle at the tips'n'tails, especially on low rockered skis. Plus the side edging cutters take off more than necessary giving too big of a hanging burr which is hard to fully remove. The combination of these two errors means that detuning becomes necessary for a quick fix rather than addressing the cause of the problem.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| turbosmurf wrote: |
.........
Basically it goes like this
a. Alu-oxide stone (not gummi) to take off work hardened edge damage that will otherwise kill your files
b. (optional) coarse (metal) file to set edges or take off more material per pass if edges are really dull
c. fine metal file for main sharpening duty
d. (arguably optional) diamond or diamonds to polish the edge - perhaps lasts longer, perhaps faster
e. (optional) gummi to detune (I don't)
Files and diamond files aren't the same. |
You've missed one vitally important step. |
I wasn't giving instruction, just answering his question about what tools he needs. Your instructions below are great, of course.
I should also have said he will need the sidewall plane, as shops generally don't remove excess sidewall (the machines usually just take off sidewall and edge together).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| spyderjon wrote: |
Yep, the hanging burr removal was missing.
Side edge work should be:
1. Alu-oxide to remove hardened skiing burrs and rock dings
2. Metal file until a very slight hanging burr is raised. This is critical because if a hanging burr isn't raised the edge is still blunt. Most DIY'ers don't remove enough material and it may take one pass or multiple passes depending upon the condition of the edge - but the important thing is that a slight hanging burr must be created. A medium cut/16tpcm file is ideal for most. Coarser files are great for fast metal removal if the ski is very blunt or when increase the side edge angle but should be switched to a medium or fine file before the hanging burr is raised to avoid having striations in the edge. If the sidewall materail is clogging the metal then the sidewall is going to need trimming back a tad to create some clearance before the metal filing can recommence.
3. Diamond file/stone (used wet with either a proper non-oil based diamond cutting fluid or water). How many grades are used depends upon your performance requirments, time and budget. A single diamond solution would be a 400grit. A two diamond solution would be a 200 and 600grit - which gives an excellent transition from the medium file. Racers will usually use multiple diamonds (or cermics stones or Arkansas stones) to get the edge as smooth as possible. Metal filing leaves microscopic peaks'n'troughs (have a look at the side edges of most brand new skis and you'll see machining marks left from the factory tune). The peaks are unsupported by metal either side so will burr over in use sooner rather than later so the more the edge is honed the more durable the edge will be. If tuning is done on a 'little and often' basis (which it should be) then the metal file could be skipped as a 100 or 200grit diamond will probably take off enough material, ie to create the slight hanging burr - but if a hanging burr can't be raised then you should go back to the metal file.
4. Remove the hanging burr. The punter method is to use a hard gummi along the base edge angle but the pro method is to run a medium-smooth diamond along the base edge angle followed by an extremely light 45 degrees pass to ensure that the hanging burr is fully gone and no part of it has been pushed over the edge.
5. Optional. A few light passes of a hard gummi at the contact points to detune. Detuning is a legacy from the old straight ski days and if the base edge angle is properly set full length and the hanging burr fully removed then it shouldn't be necessary. And if the ski is a bit hooky then increasing the base edge angle slightly at the contact point(s) gives a more progressive edge engagement but still gives full length sharpeness. Most shops machine service and base grind even though it's not necessary and the machines often don't cut a full base edge angle at the tips'n'tails, especially on low rockered skis. Plus the side edging cutters take off more than necessary giving too big of a hanging burr which is hard to fully remove. The combination of these two errors means that detuning becomes necessary for a quick fix rather than addressing the cause of the problem. |
Just one follow up question what exactly is a hanging burr? I've been reading your tuning guide though still not 100% sure. Is that just the newly filed edge?
Thanks I do look forward to attending one of your tuning training sessions. Just need to work out an excuse to come up!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hanging burr description.
As you work/cut the metal along the edge the very outside (as it turns the corner onto the base) is unsupported, this doesn't allow the tool to completely cut it with the resulting metal still partly attached rolling over the edge.
If you turned the ski base upward and magnified it, looking across to the worked edge from direction of the other one (flat across the base) it would look like a roller wave coming towards you in the sea.
You can't get round them as it's intrinsically part of cutting the metal, but you have to make sure you fully remove this to allow the 90degree-ish form to be present.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ski3 wrote: |
Hanging burr description.
As you work/cut the metal along the edge the very outside (as it turns the corner onto the base) is unsupported, this doesn't allow the tool to completely cut it with the resulting metal still partly attached rolling over the edge.
If you turned the ski base upward and magnified it, looking across to the worked edge from direction of the other one (flat across the base) it would look like a roller wave coming towards you in the sea.
You can't get round them as it's intrinsically part of cutting the metal, but you have to make sure you fully remove this to allow the 90degree-ish form to be present. |
Thanks - this is very clear (although I have to read it five times to understand - nothing to do with your description I just had to visualise it in my mind!)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@spyderjon, your post above was very well-timed, as I'm just tuning the edges of a snowboard you recently did a base grind on. Should I expect it to take a few more passes of the file to reset the angle to 2deg, compared with when I increased it from 1deg to 2deg? (As I write that, I'm thinking the obvious answer is yes, but just wanted to check )
Also, what's the best way to tell if you've got a hanging burr?
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Thanks for this btw! Sadly I don't have the tools (or the skill!) to make something like this...
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Thanks for the great advice on this thread - especially @spyderjon. A quick follow up question re diamond stones. I have always used moonflex but wanted to know if anyone had a recommendation for a cheaper option that was as good or, maybe even, a better (eg longer life) option that costs more? Thanks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Moonflex are the best you can get for trueness and durability and therefore value for money. If you're just doing a light touch-up (ie skipping the use of a metal file) it's still important to use an alu-oxide stone first to remove any work hardened skiing burrs &/or rock dings as they'll reduce the life of the diamond. And it's important to use the diamonds wet, either with a non oil based diamond cutting fluid like Easicut (as anything oil based gets in to the ptex base and can't be removed) or water. Also, moving the diamond around on the side edge guide will even out the wear as opposed to concentrating it in one place. This is another benefit of using guide with a spring clamp as opposed to one of the 'slot-in' types.
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As part of general edge servicing should you do both the base and side edges, or just the side ones?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Mjit, advice is always to not touch the base edge and just work on the side edges.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've always done a few light passes with diamond stones in a 1 degree base edge guide to make sure any burr is removed and keep the base metal smooth. Not trying to remove much material and haven't had a problem even with 10 year old skis. I stick a 3 degree edge angle on every ski we own, on powder skis it is worth it for when you come down an icy black and can still grip.
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@Scarpa, 
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You know it makes sense.
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@Scarpa, I do the same, keeping the passes on the base edge very light. Side edge angle is such a personal thing, when my daughter was more serious about her racing you should have heard the discussions and debates. And her expectation that I would constantly adjust edge angles based on latest debate/expected conditions/expected course layout. I ended up buying extra skis as not a fan of changing edge angles more than one or twice. My personal preference is 2 degrees for everything, I would find 3 a bit too much but there really is no "right" answer!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@zikomo It definitely comes down to personal preference, style of skiing and snow conditions. And talk about racers with temperature and condition specific last minute waxes... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Scarpa, yup! Glad she has largely given up the racing. On the plus side I am a master at servicing skis now!
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FAQ
The one hanging over the base edge.