Buying or Building a Ski Chalet - any experience/advice?

A snowHead

Hi all,

Considering buying a chalet (or plot and building) in France (leaning towards PDS). Very early days research wise but wondering if anyone had any experience or advice to offer. Budget wise would be looking at circa £1mm budget for a 4/5 bed chalet. Has anyone got anything similar and if so does it turn a profit, break even or cost to run. Long term plan is to move to the alps when we retire in around 8 years so before then would look to rent out or lease direct to a chalet company before then and trying to work out if it works out as an investment or if I am better investing my money elsewhere and looking to buy further down the line.

Also interested in any other recommended resorts. PDS appeals due to proximity to GVA and extensive terrain, variety of snow parks, the stash etc (although maybe more for the kids than me by the time I retire) and relatively long season (in my experience - we usually spend our Easter Holidays in Morzine and always had good snow cover, even in 'bad years'. Was planning to be in St Gervais this Christmas as wanted to see that as a potential option but Omnicron put a spanner in the works there so ended up in Switzerland.

Thanks,

FT

A snowHead

Some advice I was given when chatting to the owner of a chalet in chamonix where I was staying was make sure you have also looked into the summer side of things. Even breaking even as an investment now is probably dependant on both summer and winter seasons.

They pointed out that a huge factor was whether you got the sun, as the mountains can mean parts of the valleys being in the shade most of the time. Also while chamonix is relatively active year round, several nearby areas mostly shut down for chunks of the year.

Several people on snowheads can probably advise you on it better than I can, but I know when I (not actually that seriously) looked into it I quickly realised that I was far better investing in something else and putting some of the return into a ski trip fund than messing around with alpine property (of course part of this was that I could only go out for so many weeks a year anyway and don't need to travel during peak season)

Also probably worth looking at what covid has done to alpine property prices (AFAIK they are up drastically because of people thinking they want out of cities and can work remotely from nice places...)

Finally, somewhere to retire to may be different to somewhere to rent out; E.g. if you are living their then you potentially have a car and can justify multiple lift passes; Travelling to whichever area has the best snow rather than needing to stay within a resort; I gather this can drastically reduce costs...

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@Fast_ted, No great expert but I suspect Chalet Company lease return will decline going forward , after Brexit and Chalet Companies having to follow French employment laws all I hear from Chalet Company owners how difficult it is ,let alone the latest Covid situation . The Catered Chalet industry is in decline .

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@qwerty360 - thanks for the reply. I agree having a decent summer season is definitely worth having on the check list and I believe the PDS is relatively busy with mountain biking etc and being so close to Geneva must help I would assume. Would be interested to know if prices have gone up, haven’t been looking long enough to gauge this. I had in my head that now may be a good time as people considering selling after a couple (or more?) of dud seasons. Hopefully some can advise, not sure if you can find sold prices like you can in the uk? Agree with you point being further out but initially looking in a resort as short term better for rental income I would think.

@Rob Mackley - you are probably right but I would think the market would just move to self catered rentals along with the food delivery/private chef model. I think us brits will always want that service so just a different way of getting it. As always time will tell….

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

We have a place in Chatel and PDS also great choice for summer (which was not in our thoughts when buying). We very much enjoy the proximity to lake GVA and all the water activities on a hot day which allows us to get all year-round use. Definitely not a financial investment for and many snowHead

will agree. We use it during peak season and holidays with our kids which cancels out the best rental income opportunities and as such don’t bother renting it out. Capital growth is also low as there are always new builds being developed in PDS and all over the Alps which favour new buyers who seem to prefer “lock and leave”. All things considered it is the best thing we have ever done.

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@Fast_ted, we had a chalet built in Les Gets in 2000, bought the plot early 1999, still in FF in those days. We sold in 2018. We loved it there in the summer as well as the winter time. Tended to let for around three weeks in February as far too busy for us and we didn’t have school age children, or grandchildren then. I know the family would want it then now, if we still had it! We were lucky enough to manage two weeks back in Les Gets last July staying in a good friend’s chalet just along the road from our place.
From what we have heard the French are buying chalets quite a bit now, our old next door (UK) neighbour sold earlier this year to a family from Brittany.
There is a SH, PDS based, called Shep who is pretty knowledgeable about things property wise in the area.

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@Fast_ted,
Since Covid, the property market in the PDS (and probably all of the Haute Savoie) has gone bonkers. Where I am (Morzine) it is very hard to find anything to buy, and even the totally shite properties, that have been on on the market for years, have sold. Any decent land is snapped up by one of the army of property developers in the area. As a result, despite the enormous amount of new building also going on, prices are definitely on the rise.
I can’t really advise regarding rentals, but would agree with the comments regarding the catered chalet market. However there’s plenty of demand for self catered, with clients coming from all over Europe, although the UK market is still key.

Cheers

After all it is free

@Fast_ted, I see you were going to look at St Gervais , I still would. It may not have the longest season but it does have Les Contimenes in its pass & it holds on to snow well.
Add to that it's a lovely town that is not 100% tourists , so nice for longer stays

@Jonny996, +1, and it’s gorgeous in the summer (when we first discovered St G, returning to ski a couple of times. You’re close enough to Chamonix, and Lake Annecy for summer days there too.

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@Fast_ted, Only thing I can add to the above is: Consider Parking - best is your own Garage!

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Some friends built a chalet in Morzine about 6 years ago. Google Corner4 Morzine. They live out there full time. It was a long and very challenging process but their place is gorgeous.

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Don’t forget morzine is one of the top places for hiking and especially biking during the summer months, so any investments potential should be a year round business, not just reduced to the winter months for skiing.

@boredsurfin, in some places, e.g. Chamonix, adequate parking, both covered and open is a required part of the planning application. Something like 2 places minimum increasing by one place per bedroom over 3 bedrooms (i.e. 3 places for 4 beds, etc.).

You know it makes sense.

@Fast_ted, forgot to chip in and right now a bit in a rush. Just a few of my observations and a question Happy

Cash or mortgage?

I doubt there's much of a market letting for a season to a chalet company in winter and none in the summer.

Chamonix still has a stronger and longer summer than anywhere else nearby. Summer very and increasingly important.

Self catering very viable if you manage it yourself, but that's quite a lot of work. And I don't think I'd want to be doing it remotely (we originally thought we could, we wouldn't have been able to (we rented 3 apartments in Chamonix for 15 years)). Finding cleaners etc. right now is a nightmare.

Capital returns minimal historically and even Knight Frank's estimate for Cham last year of 6% wouldn't cover a great deal, and is anyway probably indicative of a short term bubble.

Be aware and wary of evolving French tax situation, it's, complicated.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Random thoughts from me:
We did look at a building plot a few years ago, but didn't go for it and I'm so glad-it was on the shady side of the valley. Aspect should be a big thing in your property search.
Likewise make sure you think about outside space, a view and distance to the local mini supermarket and bar/restaurant.

In the end were lucky enough to find an old converted stone barn which was liveable but needed a proper refresh after 20 years. It's a mile from the lifts, and 15 mins walk to the bars and shops in the village. It's gorgeous, quirky, but not for renting out. I think there is a difference between a place that feels like a real mountain "home" and a place you are prepared to let others occupy.

Building your own if you can find a good plot and a good architect or renovate an older property-either might be an option.
New build chalets on the open market in St Martin de Belleville come in at over €12000 per sq m at the moment and, as others have observed the market is very busy.

For a long term place that you want to call home-be prepared to look beyond the properties that are close to the middle of the resort or lifts. You get more for your money, in a quieter location. The downside is less rentability other than in really peak weeks.

A snowHead

OK…I have had long term experience of the Alps, climbing and skiing, and have a family chalet in the Rhone Alps, at 1100m. You need to take climate change into account. Really. I would not buy or build in PDS. Too low. You need ready access to altitude. In the past twenty years things have changed out of all recognition. And the rapid change we see now is the result of human action 50 years ago. Things are going to get worse before they get better. When you buy or build you are committing to the long term. We relish DH and enduro biking as much as we like skiing. And we are likely to be doing a lot more biking and a lot less skiing, as the climate changes.

So….if you are committed to France, I would focus on one of the small villages with access to a big system with high bits. Plenty of choice. Yes, go for sun - we nearly also bought in Peisey Nancroix twenty five years ago - lovely working village, but no sun Nov-March. Our family chalet gets 300 days of sun and is South facing - far better.

That’s the big thing - getting access to a place which will actually have active skiing in 20 years’ time. Go high. Go flexible. We have ten village systems within 45 mins. We chase the best snow. Some of these - high, fantastic off piste. Few know about these small, high resorts. They will likely have snow when a lot of PDS becomes wet grass in the winter sun. Grief, it was 10 deg at 3000m just before New Year. That’s the new normal.

A couple of other things, as you accumulate kit you need to designate a bedroom as a workshop and store or have a heated garage in which you can store things and work on them. We are restricted in our place - it has five bedrooms but no good kit store and we have bikes and skis and climbing gear everywhere. Chaos.

You need to get alternative heating (not gas, not oil) and have a hyper-insulated house, zoned so that only a very small part of it needs to be heated when you are not there. So, I would build, and take a lot of advice from a really good, switched on architect. We are retro-engineering our family place and it is costing a fortune.

A snowHead

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@Perty completely agree with your thoughts - we were in La Tsoumaz for Xmas (last minute change from St Gervais due to covid restrictions) and were in a lovely chalet with an amazing view BUT never got any sun so the large balcony and outside space never got used, so agree aspect is key. Also for me need to be able to walk to a bar/restaurant and be close to a bus stop if in Morzine area.

I think a new build, if we can find the land, is the best bet as would like to think that you would have some capital in the property one finished to act as a buffer against any currency fluctuations etc. I guess location wise its a balancing act between something that can hopefully generate a decent return or at least pay for itself vs maybe more for your money but more difficult to let. We have time on our side and there is an option to invest money elsewhere until nearer the time but finding the right thing may take a fair amount of time and it's certainly something I am keen to do as a lifestyle choice above all else (but can't help trying to balance the books - I manage costs for a living).

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@valais 2 - thanks for the response. In my mind Avoriaz is pretty reliable despite not being the highest of resorts and we have always had decent skiing when we have visited. I hear what you are saying about climate change but this doesn't concern me too much (maybe wrongly as time will tell) as I expect resorts to improve snow making - one thing we are good at is coming up with solutions. In verbier I was surprised to see snow cannons way above 2500m but I guess they are investing in the future. I would however be interested to hear what small villages you think are worth considering.

I was looking at Ecsus for chalet build who build bespoke eco chalets with ground source heating, ultra insulation and the like - again one of the advantages of building is that you can really ensure you get a well insulated and cheap to run home. We've extended/refurbished quite a few places in the UK and agree that good storage is absolutely key.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Just wanted to say thanks to all the other posters who I haven't responded to directly. Appreciate the input and advice - one thing I am learning fast is that there is a lot to learn!

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@Fast_ted, The problem with PDS and Avoriaz is that when it is raining down low the whole of the PDS heads for Avoriaz and the lift system is very bunched together and it gets so crowded it is unpleasant. I stayed in Morzine for many, many weeks while training and it is one of my least favourite resorts. You spend all your time on skis travelling to actually find somewhere to go skiing. Everyone that lives there raves over the summertime activities but all alpine resorts have cycling, climbing hiking etc.

If a new build house/chalet is what you want I would think buying in a valley with good aspects as mentioned and access to higher ski areas that are drive to and have parking as Valais mentions. For your budget I wouldn't think you would be able to get a ski in ski out position in a high altitude resort but might be possible. Once you decide that you either want to be able to park the car for a week and just go skiing OR you want a bigger place that you can/must jump on a bus or drive to dictates a lot of your decision making.

When I was looking it was a toss up between being walking distance to slopes or an extra bedroom down the valley and buses/drives each day. Most of my mates who live in the mountains "commute" and prefer the additional space and you get used to the morning drive or bus.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

You need to decide if you want a place in the mountains to enjoy year round or want a place so you can maximise skiing now and in the long run. We are in Chatel at 1270m and if it is raining badly which can happen a few times a season (and likely it’s raining elsewhere or blizzards up high) we stay home and play games, invite friends over, do DIY or other activity - this is the advantage of having your own place as you are not forced to go out and ski to maximise the 6 day annual ski week.

After all it is free

Such a lot depends on the use you plan to make of the place. For us, ski in/out was important as was access straight to nice walking trails in late spring/summer/autumn. Because we often went out skiing just for a couple of hours - or walking just for an hour. We also drove to other places to ski occasionally, and other places to walk, too. When friends and family came to stay (which was frequently) we didn't need to ferry them around - and some folk, who got tired or cold quicker, could ski back easily to have a rest/drink/siesta. Being able to have lunch at home was also important - we did "lunch out" for a treat when over the other side of he domain, but it's too expensive every day, when you are there for weeks. For small kids (and some not-so-small ones) having snow right outside the door to play in, and a wee slope to toboggan down, was a key part of their enjoyment. Get them into their warm togs, throw them out. Sometimes they played for ages, sometimes they got cold and wet and wanted to come back inside in 20 minutes. Would have been an absolute pain to have to drive them somewhere every time.

Having a top-quality view was also critical for us, and what sold us the apartment - we saw the site when it was just a field, were blown away by the view, and bought "off plan". Views are also critical to me in my UK house which is a badly built, terraced, architectural monstrosity - in a superb location. It's important to think hard about what's important to you - and what you are prepared to compromise on.

@Fast_ted, some friends built just above Haute Nendaz a few years back and have a lovely Chalet for what we paid for a tired apt in Verbier.
http://www.chaletchambord.com/gallery.html#_self

Much better aspect than La Tzoumaz and easy access to the best 4V skiing via Siviez. It has appreciated in value significantly. But they are out of town so have to drive to the lifts and not sure whether there are still plots left.

I would also be wary of the height of PdS (the highest lift is almost a vertical km lower than in the 4V) but many people like it.

You can see the rental prices on their website - it is pretty much always fully booked in Winter. Not sure about the Summer

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Buying or Building a Ski Chalet - any experience/advice?

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