 Poster: A snowHead
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With the appropriate tools, guides and know how (piste office) are the results in terms of ski performance noticeably better than shop machine edge sharpening?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No idea about results being better but I imagine the feeling of skiing on your freshly waxed and sharpened skis is pretty special (the first few times)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 28-12-21 9:56; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have the hand tools, used to service my skis every year, but the edges were never as good as a machined finish, i still use an edging block though while on holiday just to keep the edges keen and free from rust..
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@On the rocks, They very much can be. Depends on the machine and how well it's operated, and on the hand sharpener's tools and skillz.
If you consider that esp. if it's busy, the shop's objective is to pass as many pairs through as possible in as short as time as possible in order to get home for tea.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Depends on the machine. If it's a computer programmed, laser guided Wintersteiger with ceramic polishing discs that has adjustable angles in .25 degree increments then you'd need to be a highly skilled ski tuner to get anywhere near it.
If it's an old school rental shop machine that puts everything out at 90 degrees and a flat base edge, then you can do better by hand.
My local Skiset in La Tania has the former and the owner says it is better than anything he can do himself. I haven't gone anywhere else for servicing since he got it 3-4 years ago because the results are superb.
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While I suppose that machines improve all the time, the very best is to ask for a hand tune from a shop that deals with racers.
I quite like the DIY approach as well, however there are lots of little details. One example is cutting the side walls back sufficiently so that the files/diamonds run cleanly. It is nice to have this sort of thing done properly by a shop with new skis.
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^ good post above mine by the way.
[what a pleasure to talk about skiing incidentally!]
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| Raceplate wrote: |
Depends on the machine. If it's a computer programmed, laser guided Wintersteiger with ceramic polishing discs that has adjustable angles in .25 degree increments then you'd need to be a highly skilled ski tuner to get anywhere near it.
If it's an old school rental shop machine that puts everything out at 90 degrees and a flat base edge, then you can do better by hand.
My local Skiset in La Tania has the former and the owner says it is better than anything he can do himself. I haven't gone anywhere else for servicing since he got it 3-4 years ago because the results are superb. |
Any idea how common the fancier machines are by the way? It would be great if we could make a snowheads list of shops that have them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@JamesHJ, along with a grading if how good they are at operating it.
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@Raceplate, that sounds right, it also depends how long you're prepared to spend.
I think, though, my basic point stands, if you have "a computer programmed, laser guided Wintersteiger with ceramic polishing discs that has adjustable angles in .25 degree increments " and also a queue of 500 (say), mostly rental, pairs to run through before the first pastis of the evening, the results will be as expected.
We used to use a little shop in Cham who did a lot of club prep (and didn't have a huge rental fleet to service) such a nice surprise to be asked what angles one wanted ...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks for all the replies so far. It seems a good approach would be to get a service from a shop who can apply the CORRECT edge angle for one’s skis, then a DIY refresh every day or so if skiing icy pistes?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I guess there is also the question of how quickly edges wear out. I imagine more precise machines remove less material?
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@JamesHJ, when he first bought it, I think the next nearest one was in Val d'Isere. I believe the most respected shop (can't remember the name) in Courchevel Le Praz bought one 2 years ago but I don't go any further afield. One of these babies (link to PDF product guide) https://www.wintersteiger.com/download/?file=14436
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name, I believe one of the main points of the Wintersteiger scout is that you can't "rush it through" like an old school machine and because everything is automatically controlled by laser guides, ski tech competence is largely irrelevant. As long as you correctly program the desired angles, the machine will produce them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| Thanks for all the replies so far. It seems a good approach would be to get a service from a shop who can apply the CORRECT edge angle for one’s skis, then a DIY refresh every day or so if skiing icy pistes? |
And avoid the rocks 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Raceplate, I am sure you are correct in that, but on a busy night I can't see any "special" programming being bothered with  I know the one I'm most familiar with does have in and out racks and the process happens at the "machine's" speed, but it still seems to rattle through them ...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| JamesHJ wrote: |
| I guess there is also the question of how quickly edges wear out. I imagine more precise machines remove less material? |
Definitely, it's one of the key reasons I always go back to the Wintersteiger. I've had skis before that I had to chuck because an old school 90 degree service machine had basically worn away the tail edges due to over pressure on the sides in that area as they went through the machine.
Also, most factory finishes are 88 degrees at the side. If the first thing you do is grind that away to 90 degrees then you've immediately taken a lot of side edge off. If you then find a decent machine to put it back to 88 degrees, you will again take a lot of side edge off to recreate the factory angle.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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To be honest, the main reason I don’t use shops much is related to time.
I just can’t stand to miss the first lifts! Drives my wife crazy, but gives me huge pleasure to be up early.
My box of tricks in the garage is usually enough to get the skis ready for my punter skiing 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| With the appropriate tools, guides and know how (piste office) are the results in terms of ski performance noticeably better than shop machine edge sharpening? |
If all the above is there (appropriate tools and knowledge) then yes. Ski performance is noticeably better then from shop machine. There's no question about.
There's another plus for doing it yourself. There's very little chance you will take skis to shop after every skiing. Doing edges at home after every skiing (or before every skiing) doesn't take more then 30min (with waxing included) and makes huge difference, as skiing with properly prepared skis is completely different experience then skiing with skis, that are prepared once a week/month/year.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wintersteiger Discman edging tools are very popular on the dry slope racing circuit where the top racers sharpen their skis after every run. In other words every 150m of use. The advocates say that theses battery powered devices take off less metal than doing it by hand and give superb sharp edges.
To put the cost in perspective they cost about 15 times what a service in my local ski shop in Les Arcs costs. So for our family it should start paying back after 4 or 5 years if we ignore the cost of wax. I'm sticking to buying a new file every year.
Other makes are available
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@primoz, I'm not sure many of us will spend 30 minutes a day sharpening and waxing our own skis.
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So... the last time I took my skis to a shop they came back unskiable. Which for week 2 of a BASI course was less than helpful! I am sure newer machines do a better job, but I'm always wondering how motivated a business selling skis will be to prolong the life of mine?
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| johnE wrote: |
| @primoz, I'm not sure many of us will spend 30 minutes a day sharpening and waxing our own skis. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ski wrote: |
| So... the last time I took my skis to a shop they came back unskiable. Which for week 2 of a BASI course was less than helpful! I am sure newer machines do a better job, but I'm always wondering how motivated a business selling skis will be to prolong the life of mine? |
I use a in resort shop which was recommended to me. I've always found them very good and they they won't sharpen a ski that doesn't need it. I'm sure you won't go back to that shop again, but once you find a good one it's very helpful, especially as they open at 8:30. So if I drop the skis off the night before they're ready for me to pick up on the way to the first lift.
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For a recreational skier, it's definitely possible to get a pretty decent tune by hand, if you know what you are doing and have good tools. I'm not going to comment on racers – that's a field of high precision and marginal gains, but people on holiday don't need that.
Tools last ages, so for me the only ongoing cost is wax and time, and I generally have adequate amounts of both. It's nice to know what has happened to your own skis, and be able to control that. If the service is bad, I only have myself to blame. I once returned after descending partly down a rodelbahn, that was mostly ice and grit. My skis looked like they'd been chewed by a bear, but half an hour with the files tidied the edges up good as new.
That said, I'd have no issues taking them somewhere that came recommended, like Il Professoro in Alleghe, especially if I was short on time/in the pub. The problem is finding such places – there are many ski servicing horror stories out there, and e.g. locally I don't know who has a Wintersteiger pro machine, or who would do a decent hand service, so I'll continue to do them myself. Hire skis get chucked back at the shop though, always.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Does anyone do the bases and base edge by hand?
I used my kid’s USB microscope to look at our ski edges a couple of years back and was amazed by how much of the wear was on the base edge. To get back to a clean edge required removing a lot more side edge than it would have needed off the base.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| Does anyone do the bases and base edge by hand? |
Yes, it's just part of the routine.
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@Scarlet, I guess I should have asked how you get a decent base finish by hand?
I mix and match diy and shop, using shops when I want the bases done because I haven’t worked out how to get anything close to a machine finish. What an I missing?
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You know it makes sense.
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@snowdave, when you say base finish, are you still talking about the edges, or the base itself? I'm going to assume you're referring to the base edge, in which case I just make a few passes with the files – pink stone, metal, diamond, then fine diamond – using the 1 degree guide @spyderjon gave me. There are a few minor dinks in them, but I'd have to take off a lot of material to properly remove those, and as long as they are smooth enough not to catch, it doesn't really matter. The edges are always sharp enough to cut my nails when I'm done.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I invested a modest amount in guides and files and various servicing tools and have found it to be a very therapeutic process.
I would suggest a sidewall planer, base and side bevel guides and a good selection of files to solve 99% of problems and keep them in good shape.. a few gummy stones and other small hand tools and there isn’t much you can’t achieve.
I haven’t had any challenges in achieving a good finish but then I’m using good clean sharp files and stones and probably a life of work in the mechanical engineering sector has helped one juggle a file!
I wouldn’t trust any old shop with my skis personally - give them a set of Line skis or something else quirky where the factory angles aren’t the same old and watch what happens when they grind the pants of your lovely new £750 planks.
Nope, I’ll continue to slave over the skis, 30 minutes a ski in the workshop with some care and attention and we are away… only downside is there’s a dozen sets of skis in my workshop now as mates want this service!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I do my base (snowboard) by hand using one of the ski visions base flatterers. Definitely do a better job than my local shop does with a machine grind, but that says more about the shop than my skills.
Cosmetically the results look nowhere near as good as a machine grind. But it seems to ride ok. The couple of times I’ve gone to town and removed a lot of base material to get from convex to flat, it’s taken ages but good results.
I tune all my gear most of the time, don’t think I do a particularly great job but I can’t tell the difference in how it rides v an average shop tune. I reckon it only make a difference for the very skilled rider.
My main reason for hand tuning is the cost for a stoned student to chuck my gear through a machine a few times a season starts to add up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tbh, if you have small children, 30 min alone in the garage with beer and skis is a huge pleasure
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haha my garage has a stereo, couple of sofas and a beer fridge. Tuning can take a few hours if it involves mates coming over 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
For a recreational skier, it's definitely possible to get a pretty decent tune by hand, if you know what you are doing and have good tools. I'm not going to comment on racers – that's a field of high precision and marginal gains, but people on holiday don't need that.
Tools last ages, so for me the only ongoing cost is wax and time, and I generally have adequate amounts of both. It's nice to know what has happened to your own skis, and be able to control that. If the service is bad, I only have myself to blame. I once returned after descending partly down a rodelbahn, that was mostly ice and grit. My skis looked like they'd been chewed by a bear, but half an hour with the files tidied the edges up good as new. |
Ditto!
Probably after a weeks worth of skiing, generally.
I’ve not (unfortunately) done the Piste Office course but adhere to their principles courtesy of a third hand bit of training.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| @snowdave, when you say base finish, are you still talking about the edges, or the base itself? I'm going to assume you're referring to the base edge, in which case I just make a few passes with the files – pink stone, metal, diamond, then fine diamond – using the 1 degree guide @spyderjon gave me. There are a few minor dinks in them, but I'd have to take off a lot of material to properly remove those, and as long as they are smooth enough not to catch, it doesn't really matter. The edges are always sharp enough to cut my nails when I'm done. |
Sorry, it’s my day for lack of clarity. I meant the base itself. When I attack the base edges with files, either I touch the base (and make it look a bit rough), or I create a discrepancy between the base and the edge because I _don't_ touch the base. Either way, if I take enough off the base edge, eventually there is a lip. When they’ve been through a machine, the base and base are perfectly aligned.
This is all fine in resort where I can get the skis run through a machine well and cheaply, but in the uk where my kids race dry slope, I’ve observed that most people run out of edge by taking it all away from the side because it’s much harder (or at least less convenient!) to get the bases done. If I could find a good way of doing the bases and base edge by hand, it would potentially extend the life of our dry slope skis.
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@snowdave, okay, I get ya. But no, I can’t say that’s ever been a problem – I’ve just had a quick check of 5 pairs that have only ever been hand-tuned, and all are perfectly flush at the base edge. I take off any raised material if I get a scratch, but have never needed to have a base grind and all are still looking good. Not too old though – oldest pair is about 5 years old.
I try not to ski rocks and have never been in a dry slope. I wonder if that is causing you issues? Also, racing is probably putting more wear and tear on them than your average week in the Alps, but you’re getting beyond my expertise at that point anyway.
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I’d be interested to see what the computer controlled machines do when they stone the base and if they structure the edge. When I was taught and then did lots, like 1000s of skis, we manually base filed every ski (except rentals!) so they weren’t railed , flattened and structured them and then hand finished the edges , usually 0.5deg base and 1.5 edge. I’m still a pedantic bug and don’t like railed skis so flatten mine by hand before I get them stoned for structure (one pass tail first, one pass tip first) then hand file them. But I’m probably miles out of date. I also used to be able to spot punters on badly railed skis when I taught, amazing what a flat shovel of a ski does for turn initiation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have a pretty full tool box and a lot of experience, and I am better than a lousy shop dude. But I'm no match for a good one. So I went and found a good shop and mostly go there. We're halfway home.
...because its not just the shop, but the individual doing the work. Years ago I took freshly tuned skis out and they wouldn't slide. Brought 'em back and a different guy took one look and said "that's the wrong structure, I'll be right back". Nice recovery, but I did move on to another shop, and so far they are 3 for 3. (They are tiny, I hope they survive....support the little shops when you can, people!)
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@Scarlet, thanks. You’ve inspired me to try again doing the base edges myself. I have one of @spyderjons base angle thingys.
You’re right about the impact of dry slopes (very rapid wear) and racing, tho the one advantage of snow racing at least is that the skis get thrown over a lot more in the turn (compared to “cruising”) so the wear becomes more evenly distributed. For some reason the bigger dings don’t seem to be - possibly because they occur off the course.
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