Which Snow Chains

A snowHead

Hi peeps. Looking for a set of snow chains to store in the van. Has anyone got any advice. Ive seen a few different types, ie the chain type, plastic band which you put about 10 different ones on and everything in between. Has anyone got any advice of which to get and also where is best to get them. Ive had a quick look on Ebay and Amazon but nothing is jumping out

A snowHead

If living in the Mountains then Chains, you'll soon get very used and quick to put them on/off and they will give you the best grip.

Not many (if any) locals use socks, bands or anything else.

If you can also get some winter tyres as well and then you'll need to use chains less.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The band type are generally absolutely Fouging useless. If you need traction they won't help for more than a couple of rotations under load, don't bother with them.

Most effective in budget ranges are the diamond pattern type with simple cable inside tire wall connection, and manual tension with rubber tendon outer side of tire. Simple tough and reasonable cost.

We can, and do, debate on here all the ramifications of winter traction, but as a general backup the above fulfill most objectives. Examples marked with genuine TUV etc approval should be of decent construction to avoid problems.

"Maggi the one" is a good example of a decent brand with good construction.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Thanks for the replies ill have a look. I was looking more towards the diamond shaped chains tbh. Do these adjust to a certain degree or do you have to get the specific to your wheel + tyre size

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

They usually cover a limited range without need to adjust, effectively they are "zoned" to cover a listed set of sizes.

You'd need to check the application list to match your tire size prior to ordering to make sure the choice covers your size.

You'll need to Register first of course.

@no.strife_vanlife, if you are doing a season - as I think you are - then you absolutely definitely need snow tyres.

Many years you won't then need your chains, but you will need to have them in the vehicle.

Decided on a location yet?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@under a new name, +1

After all it is free

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Some links in german here

https://www.warenvergleich.de/schneeketten/?gid=CjwKCAjw9dboBRBUEiwA7VrrzZwNXx6knMgyUkELMkpWyVNCaxBCzusWnagNE8xde8K9b-J3ab66CxoC2GMQAvD_BwE&tr_campaign=d-sort1

https://www.vergleich.org/schneeketten/?gid=CjwKCAjw9dboBRBUEiwA7VrrzaGcdEIB1n6YdlOPQexKEunlr1o61CLhr69K0HOkKCWSuLsveMk5UhoC96sQAvD_BwE

Translator
https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Take a look in your vehicle Owners Manual in the section on wheels, tyres and chains. This'll tell you whether the size of wheels/tyres you have fitted will even take chains safely or not. If you're lucky, the wheels you have are fine and you can just put all-seasons or winter tyres on directly. If you're very unlucky, you'll need new wheels (when the fitted wheels are too wide to fit chains onto - something more likely with a performance car than a van). Michelin CrossClimates are good all-seasons, but not as good as 'proper' winter tyres in Alpine slush and snow. You can argue forever over the relative merits of winters vs all-seasons: you'll have to decide for yourself on the balance o choosing between the two. Just bear in mind that in the UK a lot of tyre distributors favour all-seasons as a good compromise for UK customers, but you're not in this category.

You get what you pay for with chains, in my view. Very cheap ones are prone to snapping under any sort of load. More expensive ones are often easier to fit and more robust. £100 should get you a decent set that won't break under stress and are fairly straightforward to fit. [We have Spike Spider EASY Sport which are the quick front-fitting type (£300) because our car has low-profile tyres that can't take conventional chains. They literally only take a minute to fit but a lot of people wouldn't pay that much to save just 5-10 minutes fitting time.]

Some chain models need adjusting slightly to fit the specific wheel/tyre size you have. So it's important to check before you leave that they do actually fit OK, and make adjustments if needed. Use your spare wheel to do this and you'll find it a lot easier, and be able to see how the chains are meant to sit behind the wheel. When packing them, make your life easier when you need to use them in earnest at a later date by separating the two sets with a bit of fabric or plastic, and if possible arranging them so then when you take them out, they're oriented for easy fitting. Also think head torch/light, some old gloves and a mat to kneel on.

snow reports

Where in Morzine are you planning on parking your van?
Some places are flat and cleared regularly, other places are on hills and not cleared so often.
Decent winter tyres should be fine, but you need chains / socks as it's a requirement.
A lot of Transfer vans use the Barum winter tyre ( I once got 30K KM out of a set one Winter) as they provide decent grip and last pretty well.
If you end up staying out of the town, then you'll want simple chains - do not be tempted by the fancy ones (they are for tourists).
If you're somewhere that is cleared regularly and not too hilly, then you'll be fine with socks as you won't need them much.
I know transfer drivers based in Morzine who did whole seasons without putting chains on, and they were driving loads of KM.

There's a bunch of nay sayers regarding socks, but we've been here 15 years (1000m higher than Morzine up a private road that it not cleared all that often), and what we have found works best for us on the 2wd are studded tyres, and keep socks in the boot, but have used them only 2-3 times, and on the 4wd vehicles, winter tyres and socks that we carry but don't use. We have been through lots of different types of fancy chains over the years, and until we became sock converts, found that the best chains were the simple ones.

It all really depends on where you're gonna be driving, and how much driving you're gonna do.
If you find a good sport, I imagine the van will be pretty static, and you'll just use the bus to to to Ardent / Prodains, and walk to the bars and shops.

The Öamtc & ADAC (basically the AA equivalents of Austria and Germany) have this to say about socks.
Socks are not a substitute for chains.
Socks are for putting on summer tyres to get better traction but they are not as good as winter tyres. Socks don't last long (while testing some shredded within 50 miles) and don't provide the same level of braking / cornering performance as a winter tyre.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

These discussions can involve a lot of confusion about what's best suited for what conditions. In the chart below, these vary from warm and dry on the left to slush, snow and ice on the right.

Snow socks are designed to provide good snow traction for summer tyres that would otherwise have little traction in snow. All other thing being equal, they won't match the traction of winter tyres and are tricky if you find yourself in mixed tarmac/snow/tarmac conditions for any prolonged distance.

Ideally, in the Alps in winter, you'd have winter tyres on, with chains to hand for particularly difficult conditions like steep slopes and ice.

A snowHead

It's probably worth taking your van to a weighbridge in its ready to travel state to check gross weight and front rear distribution. Although it might be comfortably under 3.5t most campers have overloaded rear axles and if the van is fwd then traction is going to be a problem on anything remotely slippery. If this is the case then you should seriously consider full winters and also get chains that are made for a 3.5t vehicle, not car chains that just happen to be the right size.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thanks for the replies people. Ill be getting some good all season tyres and decent chains to suit. Hopefully won't have to use them like someone said.

We rant sure on where we will park as we are not familiar with the area yet but I'm sure we will sort something out.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@mooney058, I have studded tyres on the 2WD ( these pee-pee all over normal winter tyres & I can no longer count the number of times I breeze past people with "proper" tyres) but have used many different ones.
I run 3 cars all winter, and drive 100+ days on snow each season.
This gives me a good base of experience of what works in the real world.
The image in the graph may give a good representation of the situation for new tyres, with only a couple of hundred KM on them.
The reality is that if you fit you top of the range winter tyres in October when the first snows come, by the time March swings around they are have 15,000 KM - 20,000 KM of wear on them, and while there's still a couple of mil to the winter wear bars, compared to how they were in October, then they are nowhere near as good.
Similarly in October you see a couple of mil left on the winter wear bars on last years tyres, you slap them on an see how deep you can go. ( Rubber might grow in trees, but money doesn't)
Unless you're gonna buy and fit new snow tyres every few weeks, then do not expect the performance to be like in the graph.
Agree totally that chains are better, and when I was doing seasons as a transfer driver, these were indispensable.
My point is that we have managed perfectly well with winter tyres and socks for the last few seasons (doing more snow driving than most), and that for the OP, who will be down the hill in Morzine, and not doing loads of driving around, then they ought be fine with just winter tyres and socks for legal reasons, though like the op says "Hopefully won't have to use them".
If you want to get your van weighed near Morzine, you can take it to the quarry between Le Jotty and Le Bioge, and the guy there will weigh it for you. ( This is about 4KM down the valley from the the Camping La Baume, which is open for seasonal workers in the winter).

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

@WindOfChange I was struggling to understand why you'd ever need socks on winter tyres, but I think it's clearer now: you're running your winter tyres down to way below their recommended 4mm change point (ignore the legal minimum indicator: you should change winters when thy go below 4mm and summers below 3mm) - effectively turning them into semi-slicks. But instead of changing them, you use the socks, which I can understand. You must be the only person I've come across who is wearing their tyres down at this sort of rate: winters in winter shouldn't be wearing at any higher a rate than summers in summer. I don't know what sort of driving you're doing to wear your winters like this (unless, of course, you're actually doing 15-20,000 Kms of driving?). So I don't doubt your experience, but it's pretty unique and not applicable to the OP's (and most other people's) situation. In which case the chart is applicable, and if the OP is getting new winter tyres, then they wont ever need socks, but they will need to have chains in reserve.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I get the chart, and yes I try and stretch the tyre life over winters seasons.
When they tyres are new they are great, but we do lots of KMs.
I do around 800KM a week, plus Mrs WoC does 300 KM per week, and the kids rack up another couple of hundred down to Thonon and back. (I have done 6k by Christmas, and the others about 3-4k).
This is split mainly across 2 cars, as the third (Landy 110 is kept for special events such as when the unplowed snow on our road is deeper than 12in, when the 2WD bellies out, or to winch people of out snow drifts, or our friends cars have broken down).

We get high tyre wear as we live at the top of a mountain with a steep and twisty ascent / descent cycle 1-3 times per day, and its a combination of snow, then slush, then asphalt, rinse and repeat.

Agree with Mooney that the studs aren't awesome on tarmac, but as the first part every day starts from a standing start, with a short uphill drag on the snow at 6:15 AM ( dark, cold etc..) with snow tyres I still needed chains a few times a season to get going first thing in the morning, which is a real ball-ache. With studs, we never had to ( so long as the car doesn't belly out). So like all things, it's a compromise of poor performance on asphalt, versus having to crawl around in the snow and wind and cold at 6:15 in the morning, and after you've done it a few times, you realise that it's a small price to pay.

The times when the FWD has gotten stuck is after having to slow right down on the exit of a steep hairpin, in wet snow towards the end of the season (the studs are a bit crap on that), on these occasions the socks have worked a charm.
When I was doing transfers I would do 30,000 KM a season, and in March we would swap fronts and rears as the fronts generally wear faster. ( Yeah, I know so you can slide the back and use opposite lock on the way back down from Avoriaz at 1 AM)

I dont take them beyond the Winter wear bars, but like you say, by that point they're along way from their best - hence the socks.
At 500 quid set of tyres x 3 cars, you appreciate why I take them to the wear bars.

But if as we agree, in Morzine you can get by with just decent winter tyres for 1 season, you may as well have socks that you never need over chains that you never need, as they are easier to fit.

After all it is free

Thanks for the further replies peeps. I see oct people agree on the full winters but how would this leave us the following summer when we will be driving on dry/hot tarmac. I would rather have a new set before we go that will suit all seasons. Will we get by with some new all season tyres and some snow chains.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Will we get by with some new all season tyres and some snow chains.

Yes

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

@DJL, depends on all season tyres - winter or summer biased ones?

snow reports

@mooney058, either. They’d be OK with summer tyres and chains. Once they’re in Morzine they don’t need to drive if it’s snowy. Question was “will we get by” not “is it ideal”. Answer - yes, you’ll get by.

Although Morzine is low, there are lots of melted snow during the day of its access road that usually freezes overnight. So not either, but a good winter biased universal tyre (winter tyre made to be suitable in summer as well, like Nokian Weatherproof) would be a good compromise for the OP

You know it makes sense.

@DJL The trouble with summer tyres and chains in snow is if @no.strife's van is rear-wheel drive: with the chains on the rear, driven wheels, and summer tyres on the front steering wheels, the poor front traction makes for a tendency to carry on in a straight line at bends. Which isn't good.

Front-wheel-drive (with the chains on the front/steering wheels) is not such an issue, although lack of traction at the back can still cause problems on bends. So I'd say his strategy of good all-seasons with chains in reserve is still the best compromise, given the OP will be using the vehicle through the following spring and summer.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@LaForet, (venturing into this conversation with caution) there's no doubt that summer tyres with rear wheel drive is not an ideal combination (actually, almost certainly the worst), but many of us have coped with that for years without feeling the need to spend large sums on winter tyres. A good set of quick fit chains (money well spent, IMHO) will keep you on the road if you're sensible.

Summer tyres with chains will always beat winter tyres without, although the speed needs to be kept under control/

I would suggest that for most people using ordinary "summer" tyres with good quality quick fit chains (= expensive) will be the best value solution.

The biggest danger is always people driving too fast for the conditions without an awareness of their equipment and the likely consequences.

A snowHead

@Alastair, sorry, you are wrong. Bad advice

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@under a new name, I think we've had this conversation before and I'm not going to repeat my thoughts in the interest of good taste. Did that car have chains on? It's difficult to tell from the picture.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@Alastair {Summer tyres with chains will always beat winter tyres without}

Inasmuch as if you hit unexpected ice, say, and you've already put your chains on the summers, but haven't on the winters, then yes. But this is a bit of a special case. I'm thinking about more common conditions like this, as we were crossing the Jura Mountains from France to Switzerland and it started to snow:

https://i.imgur.com/MXE8EyO.mp4

We were fine on our winter tyres, but you couldn't have used chains because the snow cover was too thin. Later on it was alternating snow-tarmac-snow and it would have been impossible to keep stopping to fit/unfit/refit the chains.

Also, as I said, if you're RWD then it may be great traction on the rears with chains, but the front, steering wheels on summers will be useless: at any sharp bend the vehicle's front will tend to keep going straight on.

I'd acknowledge that a lot of these arguments about what's best for when are very finely-balanced if you're only driving in the UK. And they remain difficult to evaluate if you just go to the Alps for a week once a year. But for anyone resident for any length of time in the Alps in winter, then it really seems to me to be a no-brainer to have either winter-biased all-seasons, or ideally full winters. And chains are needed as a reserve, whichever you choose.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Alastair, it did not. but the speed control was quite probably the main problem - once control is lost, etc. Oh, I see your point.

I'm not sure chains would have helped that much as the snow wasn't so deep and was quite wet.

I think @LaForet is also repeating a picture from prior threads wink

You'll need to Register first of course.

@under a new name, I don't think we'll ever agree on this and my view would certainly be different if I was living in the Alps full time in that I would look at all season tyres. The law may change in France soon so the argument will be dead anyway.

However, I think we can agree that the risk is generally excessive speed for the conditions, which is always higher for winter tyres in low temperatures.

Personally I drive as if the car didn't have any brakes fitted, which has done me well for over thirty years including four full seasons (VT and Les Arcs). The only times I have needed chains have been related to the limited traction in rear wheel drive cars going uphill. There's no doubt that RWD cars are not good in snow and the manufacturers don't dispute that. I changed my car for a 4WD last year, adjusted my snow chains, and didn't need chains all season.

BUT (it's a big 'but') for most people driving to the Alps for a week a year (I suspect most snowHeads readers) then I believe an alternative set of tyres is unnecessary and a cost that most people don't need as long as they drive sensibly. Fancy £300+ chains vs £1000+ tyres is a bit of a no-brainer for many.

Going back to the first question, I recommend avoiding cheap chains as they can be a nightmare to fit. A set of Spikes Spiders or similar can be adjusted for different wheels and will last for ever. Easy fit chains, of whichever brand, reduce the temptation to "push on" in conditions which require alternative equipment.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Alastair, but the other big "but" is that for many people living in the UK, they are regularly driving in temperatures below 7C - which is exactly when winters begin to become more effective.

I think if I was still living in central Scotland and an "on the road" salesperson, I'd at least have all seasons if not summers and winters, alternated appropriately.

Temp chart for Manchester for example. https://en.climate-data.org/europe/united-kingdom/england/manchester-3621/

After all it is free

@Alastair, you only need winter tyres for that one moment before you lose control and risk an accident. Winter tyres allow to limit risk of an accident.

Excessive speed is always bad, same applies for summer driving! There is no safe speed driving on summers in cold and snowy conditions!

No problem with the RWD cars. Fitted with good winter tyres they are safe on snow. Fwd or rwd on summers on snow is plainly stupid. Check accident stats! As you say, if someone is driving once a year a get lucky with cleared roads - it is just a chance. Going offpiste without proper equipment is stupid. It is even more stupid taking a chance in a 1.5-2 tonnes vehicle on summers on snow/ice. And chains would only be useful in limited number of scenarios.

Your economic logic is strange - pay 300 for chains that you may or may not use when situation worsens? Also be sure to put them on before they may be needed? This is vs winter tyres (depending on size 400-800) that could be used 4-5 months.

@under a new name, I would agree that if I was living in Scotland my view would be different. Dahn sarf in the Midlands I wish you well in selling winter tyres. If it goes well, I have a bridge to sell snowHead

One of the difficulties in the winter tyre conversation is the number of variables. For example, type of drive (FWD/RWD/4WD) , tyre shape/size, resort, frequency of use, etc - I could go on. I don't suggest that anyone should go to the Alps without any preparation. and having stuggled with cheap chains I am a fan of the Spikes Spiders - easy and quick to fit or remove.

The French resorts do manage to ensure access on Saturdays, sometimes despite atrocious conditions. They do that because they need to. I would suggest, although I have no empirical evidence, that most people driving up to Les Arcs have fairly ordinary 'summer' rubber. Somehow the public do make it up the hill, usually without significant issues.

My biggest concern, (and why I have gone a little off piste on this subject before much to my embarrassment) is that snowHeads seems to accept "you must always have winter tyres" which is not only untrue, but discourages driving holidays. Winter tyres are a 'nice to have' which are usually better in the Alps but which (until the imminent French announcement) are not normally necessary for a one week trip.

(Personally I am watching the French decision with some interest, as I will naturally comply with their decision. If they declare "winter tyres or chains" I'll carry on carrying chains. If they specify winter tyres which would permit all-seasons then I'll accept the £1K cost. If they insist on full winters, I will have to decide between staying on winters all year or two sets of tyres which will cost over £2K. Just like Brexit, I have a view but will have to accept whatever is coming.... )

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

@Alastair, There are plenty of cars available that don't require tyres costing £250 a corner. I didn't pay anything like that for my last set.

France doesn't really manage to ensure resort access on Saturdays, the changes in law need to get a higher proportion of visitors onto winter tyres to reduce traffic jams caused by people fitting chains.

Help!!

Which Snow Chains

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste