 Poster: A snowHead
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Our Mammut/Barryvoxs  are now rather dated and it has been suggested we really, really need to update them. In fairness, thankfully, they have never been used in anger.
Thoughts/recommendations??
Thanks!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Get the latest Barryvox (or Barryvox S if you really want to spend the money, although I wouldn't bother).
Streets ahead of anything else I've encountered.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've got the Barryvox S, and in the training sessions I've been in it has been much better than most of the others, to the point I had to remember it wasn't a competition and back off to let others have a chance to find the hidden transceiver. I think (from memory, and I might have got this wrong) that the only one that had similar performance was the Pieps(?) but that wasn't as easy to use in my view.
Also sat in a bar with some snowheads and did the peer to peer firmware upgrade, as one of the guys had the latest firmware, which turned out to be straightforward too.
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Thanks folks, rather thought that might be the response!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Barryvox is great. S if you feel like spending the extra, but it’s not vital. We have one of each (thanks to a packing error from retailer, which gave me a free upgrade to the S!).
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As per the comment above, the Barryvox S is so good it’s like cheating 
I did side by side testing of the Pieps Pro, Ortovox S1, Tracker 3, Arva Axio and my Barryvox Pulse. In my testing the Barryvox was quickest and easiest, but did have interference issues, fast moving stop messages, and the LCD screen could freeze going from jacket to -15C temperatures.
Since those issues have been fixed with the latest models, they are easily the best. The intelligent search in particular is amazing.
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Barryvox S. A few seconds can save a life!
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I retired my first year Pulse in favour of the Barryvox last year. It's the best piece of equipment I hope never to use. Even better than the Petzl rad line I hopefully won't use either.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Barryvox - not the S unless you are Geek and will use it a lot - the standard one is simpler to use
On my ski patrol course last November/December, Barryvoxes were proved to be the longest range and equaly the easyiest to use - just let it do its work and don't rush.
I am well practiced, but on my pro exam, any time under 3min 20, for trancivers minimum depth 50cm is considered good enough for maximum points - I managed 1min50 the fastest of the day.
With the ammount of practice we did, I though everyone would get 10point - 60% didn't......slowest time was 7 min 20, still not terrible.
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If you need to wear reading glasses then you need a display/buttons that can be read without having to dig out your specs from your pack.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 27-04-21 15:54; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@spyderjon, a very good point!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @spyderjon, a very good point!! |
'Back in the day' (mid 2000's) I walked in to a shop (EB's on Bold Street, Liverpool IIRC) to buy my first transceiver and asked the assistant if I could have a play with the extensive range they had on display. As he was getting them out of the cabinet I took out my reading specs from my pocket - upon which the assistant pushed all but one aside as he said that was the only one that I'd be able to read without my specs. He was right. I've had a few since then and it's the first thing I look for as my eyes have now deteriorated a lot more since my first purchase.
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@spyderjon, it is a very good point. Mine have too. Mind you I am trying progressive lenses which seem to work pretty well.
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name, Another vote for Barryvox S.
Much better screen than the "non S", and unless you actively choose to alter the configuration it's slightly simpler to use in default mode- on screen graphical guidance and smart search aren't available on the lower model. Whilst I can see the argument that it might have redundant features, I don't understand why it gets perceived as more complex in use, it's as complex as you want to make it _on startup_. My 9-yr old had no problems, and was faster than with her Tracker 2.
In my own practice at the avi park at grands montets, it got me exactly to each target first time, every time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, I wear varifocals daily and switch to 'readers' for workshop use or if I'm on my laptop for more than a few minutes. Have tried skiing in my varifocals a few times and I've been all over the show. Luckily my mid/distance sight is still fine for skiing without specs in all but the worst light but thankfully Prizm Hi-Pinks have staved off the need for specs for a few more years.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@snowdave, interesting, thanks. I do feel the argument is circling around to the "S" ...
@spyderjon, hmmmm, when I got my varifocals the very nice Specsaver did say that they were usually a bit "Marmite". In my case I've loved them and find the progressive contacts very nice as well. Going to see the eye doctors in Annemasse in a few weeks - Mrs U wants lasering ... we shall see what's new.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@snowdave, I haven't properly tried the S myself, it's mostly that the standard Barryvox is so good I can't really see what justifies the extra €100-odd.
My only direct experience with it was an interesting one though. I was running a training session for a family group. Dad had his own Barryvox S, Mum & kids (both under 10) were using my standard Barryvoxes (Barryvoxi? Barryvoxen?). Kids were zooming straight to the buried targets while Dad was getting confused.
As with any transceiver decision, the best transceiver is the one you know how to use WELL. If you're going to pull it out of a cupboard once a year for a ski trip and strap it straight on, get the standard Barryvox. If you're going to take the time to understand the advantages of the S properly, such that there is no chance of confusion in a panic situation, by all means get the S. I need to add another transceiver or two to my fleet and I may well get myself an S, keep the standard ones for clients.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was using Pieps DSP Pro before, but on beginning of season, when this thing about DSP series came out, I just wasn't comfortable enough with it to continue using it, so I changed it for Barryvox S (later Pieps changed my DSP Pro for Pro BT, which my wife got instead of her old Ortovox 3+). Luckily I didn't use it for anything but carrying it with me this winter, except for several trainings, so I can't say much more, except that their carrying system is definitely by far better then anything Pieps and/or Ortovox have. Maybe it's just me, but wih BarryvoxS I don't even know I have it on. It fits nicely that I have no issues when skinning, skiing or climbing, and it sits high enough that I have absolutely no issues when putting ABS backpack's hip belt on. So for that, I can't find anything bad. As for longest range goes. I'm not so sure about it. I believe there has been many way more scientific comparisons done, but with simple one that I did, searching with BarryvoxS one Pieps Pro BT and one BarryvoxS, and then searching with Pro BT one ProBT and one BarryvoxS, it didn't really show that much difference between range of BarryvoxS and Pro BT.
Simplicity is for me not really an issue, regardless which transceiver you take. They are all done so that 5 years old kid can use them, but yes it helps if you at least read manual before going out. So more then being slightly more or less simple, it's important to do regular trainings.
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if you need reading glasses the LCD displays can be hard to read as Jon says. the Tracker 3 may not have best range etc but super easy to use with a massive LED.. (i have an older pulse but mainly bought for exam to do multi burials, not sure I would remember how to do multi now without a refresher..)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm still on my Ortovox F1 
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Me either. I think I first used one in 1990. I don't think I'd use any electronic gear that old even to listen to music, but each to their own. I'll lend you a new Arva Evo 5 if you really only have that, but I can't review the things until I get to the snow.
But then the fat lady has not quite yet sung.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I replaced my F1 with a modern transceiver a few years back, but I don't think it's made a lot of difference to how long it takes me on single burials. For multiple burials, the F1 was much worse than modern models, no doubt about that
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@Arno, the F1 was prone to frequency drift. I fully appreciate that some people were really fast with it. But it was a piece of kit with a lifespan.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The Barryvox S has a lot of features that you are unlikely to use unless you are a well-practiced professional. It does have a wider search diameter than the Barryvox though: it's 60m. There are now some transceivers that work out the maths and take you straight in instead of along a flux line. I forget which model but I think it's one of the Ortovox.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| gorilla wrote: |
| @Arno, the F1 was prone to frequency drift. I fully appreciate that some people were really fast with it. But it was a piece of kit with a lifespan. |
This can be adjusted if outside spec - I have 2 and both are comfortably within spec. This can be checked with a Barryvox S or a Peips DSP Pro, both have a frequency check mode for veryfiying other trancivers. The Barryvox s instruction manual also gives you all the specs, Peips may also
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Definitely time to retire F1...
1) Problematic for multiple burials
2) Require training and a cool head
3) Possibility of frequency drift
4) Any 2x antenna beacon, struggles to resolve spikes. So on deeper burial the lowest reading might be 50cm - 1m out. See below.
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You know it makes sense.
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Which beacon to buy in 2021 ?
I am big fan of point and shoot simplicity.
In high adrenaline rescue situation you want something that is simple and reliable.
So for vast majority of people I would recommend the BCA T4.
Though any 3x antenna / digital beacon (such as those above) is a credible option.
As I see it multi-burial features are generally a complication : unless you are a guide or patroller!
Sadly such features are now used as differentiating features between models at expense of basic functionality.
1) In what scenario do you make a credible decision to leave first victim buried ?
2) The multi-burial features work by masking time slot and can never be 100% reliable.
Basically individual beacons are not synchronized in phase with each other. So over time there is 20-30% chance a multiple-burial can unmask itself.
3) 3-circle technique is not that complicated and useful to learn as exercise in how a beacon works (if you want to dive deep on solving multiples).
Practicing how to dig / probe properly seems to be a skill that is now neglected at expense of solving complex multiples.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I guess if you're daft enough to use antique safety gear you probably don't understand the basic physics either 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| philwig wrote: |
| I guess if you're daft enough to use antique safety gear you probably don't understand the basic physics either |
Quite the opposite, only if you understand the basic physics, you can use the old gear.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you're saying you actually understand why the old gear is less efficient, and yet you insist on using it, then that is certainly a different problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| If you need to wear reading glasses then you need a display/buttons that can be read without having to dig out your specs from your pack. |
Very important point, Spyderjon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Which beacon to buy in 2021 ?
I am big fan of point and shoot simplicity.
In high adrenaline rescue situation you want something that is simple and reliable.
So for vast majority of people I would recommend the BCA T4.
Though any 3x antenna / digital beacon (such as those above) is a credible option.
As I see it multi-burial features are generally a complication : unless you are a guide or patroller!
Sadly such features are now used as differentiating features between models at expense of basic functionality.
1) In what scenario do you make a credible decision to leave first victim buried ?
2) The multi-burial features work by masking time slot and can never be 100% reliable.
Basically individual beacons are not synchronized in phase with each other. So over time there is 20-30% chance a multiple-burial can unmask itself.
3) 3-circle technique is not that complicated and useful to learn as exercise in how a beacon works (if you want to dive deep on solving multiples).
Practicing how to dig / probe properly seems to be a skill that is now neglected at expense of solving complex multiples. |
Just to discuss some of those issues:
1) Either the first victim is buried very deeply (2m+) or, more reasonably, you get most of the search team to start digging while one person continues with the transceiver search to find the other victim(s).
2) Yup.
3) It's useful to learn, and having knowledge of it is at least somewhat useful for pros, but I wouldn't want to watch a group of "one week a year" riders try to rescue someone with it! Modern transceivers make it complicated too as they try to stay locked-on to the initial victim if you don't use the marking feature.
Fully agree with the "simple is best" approach, hence the recommendation for Barryvox over Barryvox S. I haven't seen the latest BCA yet. They've always had some quirky ideas about multiple burials.
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| Quote: |
If I ever happen to come across a big accident as first responder, I'll call in mountain rescue - as always - and start digging out the nearest. Once I'm done with him, the helicopter should have been arrived or time had been run out anyway.
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Whole lot of places where you can't call for help. Some of them worryingly close to the pistes.
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There’s very few places inbounds where a phone works for me. I’m usually out of bounds with one other and we always carry an inreach and a PLB between us as well as transceivers etc. wouldn’t ever rely on external help arriving in time to dig people out.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
1) Either the first victim is buried very deeply (2m+) or, more reasonably, you get most of the search team to start digging while one person continues with the transceiver search to find the other victim(s). |
Exactly : it is limited set of circumstance (multiple victims and more than one digger) that the multi burial modes become useful. Even then you need to very quickly make some difficult moral decisions. Should team concentrate on clearing airway of first victim before moving to second? In any multi burial scenario your average holiday skier would require training (including digging and probing) to pull it off. What initially looks like a deep burial could be two beacons at 90 degree angles (etc)
I guess the 'devil advocate' point I am making is that multi burial modes have (wrongly) become the main differentiating feature between beacons. Though perhaps that is reflection that all X3 antenna digital beacons are pretty good these days?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ... I guess the 'devil advocate' point I am making is that multi burial modes have (wrongly) become the main differentiating feature between beacons. Though perhaps that is reflection that all X3 antenna digital beacons are pretty good these days? |
I think your analysis of why that is is correct. The basic problem has been solved, so the rest is size and weight and price and features.
Even so, the good news about having three antennas and a processor beefy enough to deal with
the problem is that the complexity is in the system, not in the use of it.
My own pet peeve is the "turn off" mechanisms of transceivers are sensibly secure, but all different. If you're in a life and
death situation you need to turn the thing off, but with many the precise mechanism isn't obvious. The Arva 5 for example (which I
like) won't turn off mechanically - you have to also press the "mark" button. You will have to show your mates how to do
non-obvious stuff like that, but I can easily imagine myself ripping the battery out of a recalcitrant transceiver in
a life and death situation.
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| philwig wrote: |
My own pet peeve is the "turn off" mechanisms of transceivers are sensibly secure, but all different. If you're in a life and
death situation you need to turn the thing off, but with many the precise mechanism isn't obvious. |
That is a very good point : The requirement of making a beacon obvious to turn off by 3rd party (once located) somewhat contradicts the requirement it must never accidentally turn off during normal use.
Ortovox used to have nice (patented) system that "on / off" switch was integrated into harness. Means it's always on when wearing it.
| Quote: |
| but I can easily imagine myself ripping the battery out of a recalcitrant transceiver in a life and death situation. |
Yes. though often you need screwdriver to do that!
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FAQ
