 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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... another #brexit-dividend.
Career ending for many Brit ski instructors unless you wish to work in Aviemore
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bad news for British Ski Instructors? Only those who have trained with BASI. No issues if you've done the French, Swiss or Austrian training courses. Bad news for BASI though:)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
... another #brexit-dividend.
Career ending for many Brit ski instructors unless you wish to work in Aviemore |
Or Switzerland 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| Bad news for British Ski Instructors? Only those who have trained with BASI. No issues if you've done the French, Swiss or Austrian training courses. Bad news for BASI though:) |
In this particular case I think it is the nationality which is the issue, not the national system that you have chosen to follow for your exams. A Brit following the French, Austrian or Irish qualifications structure would not be able to, at present, enter for the Common Training Tests (Eurotest and the Euro Mountain Safety) unless they hold an EU passport or are citizens of a country which have an agreement to enter these tests. There might be an agreement in the future, but currently there is not.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
... another #brexit-dividend.
Career ending for many Brit ski instructors unless you wish to work in Aviemore |
Not career-ending as those who have already passed the Common Training Tests will not lose that certification. Perhaps more accurate to say “career-not-starting”.
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@rob@rar, See your point, but I've learned not take much that BASI post at face value.
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| @rob@rar, See your point, but I've learned not take much that BASI post at face value. |
Which BASI post?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This is surprising why?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| This is surprising why? |
Not surprising in the slightest. Inevitable, in fact. It might change in the future, although I doubt that will happen any time soon as this UK government is not terribly keen on signing up to EU rules.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It is a bit garbled.
First of all we are talking about the EEA if we are talking about right to work and recognition of qualifications.
AFAIKS you can work across Europe without the Eurotest which is an additional "qualification", see this letter from the EU. So someone with the Irish L4 or L3 but no Eurotest could apply for recognition in France. (see the Butler case law). Ditto for Swiss or Norwegian qualifications.
"As a preliminary remark, the Delegated Regula6on establishing the Common Training Test for ski instructors does not replace the recognition rules of the Professional Qualifica6onsDirecve as regards establishment or temporary provision of services. It is an additional and voluntary mechanism... The effect of the Delegated Regula6on is that host Member States are precluded from checking the qualifica6ons of incoming professionals that benefit from said DelegatedRegula6on during a recogni6on procedure."
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d2899c9e833340001264340/t/5f2c1626b23fbf1b4efbafdb/1596724774887/00_aa_du_14_Juillet_2020_Commission_Europ%C3%A9enne_%40_BASI_D%C3%A9clarations.pdf
> any BASI members with an EU passport are also not permitted to enter the CTT.
Hmmm, no I don't believe that. You may need to be a member of an EU body to take it but I know local ski club members (FFS) who have taken the Eurotest prior to even embarking on a career as an instructor. BASI may no longer recognize the Eurotest but I know of a recent non EEA national who was asked by the French to take it to get his qualifications recognized.
I note that BASI themselves are advising some instructors to quit their system
"members who are in the middle of completing the BASI Level 4 ISTD and you are an EU Citizen with an EU passport and wish to work in the EU, BASI recommends you do switch to another association who are part of the EU Delegated Act. The switch may involve a conversion course and/or application for equivalence."
https://blog.basi.org.uk/brexit-updates/
Probably anyone with a UK passport would be better doing the Irish qualifications with a view to obtaining a work permit later. You'd probably have to work as something else while waiting for the French to process your qualifications anyway.
> Which BASI post?
This one
https://blog.basi.org.uk/new-basi-level-4-istd-structure-and-written-project-change%e2%80%af/
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The Common Training Test (which is what the Eurotest has become, it is not the same thing as it was before) is now established under an EU delegated act under EU legislation for the recognition of professional qualification dating back to 2005:
https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/34445?locale=en
As the UK is no longer a member of the EU that legislation, and the Common Training Test that is a part of it, it no longer applies to UK citizens.
I think you’re right to question the legal position of BASI’s advice that members with EU passports can not enter the CTT, that seems odd to me as a point of law (although I’m no lawyer) but from a practical point of view you’re right to say that entries to the CTT are made through national organisations and BASI is no longer a recognised organisation. An increasing number of British ski instructors are joining the Irish Ski Instructors Association - I did, about five years ago.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
The Common Training Test (which is what the Eurotest has become, it is not the same thing as it was before) is now established under an EU delegated act under EU legislation for the recognition of professional qualification dating back to 2005:
https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/34445?locale=en |
I know but read the letter from the EU I linked to where it clearly states it is a side qualification.
BASI are floundering a bit here and it is not entirely clear what their raison d'être is now. I know people still recognize their qualifications and I've heard of Italian Maestros doing the BASI4 because it opens up employment opportunities.
Maybe Scotland will get independence and take BASI with them back into the EU but that is a decade away if ever.
I would advise trying to do a deal with the Irish or Dutch rather than spending too much time with Snowsports UK
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You know it makes sense.
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@davidof, I've been of the opinion for some time that BASI has been "a bit garbled" on EU matters around recognition of qualifications and right to work. Certainly many in the membership and I think too many in the hierarchy of the association did not seem to understand how things were evolving away from bilateral agreements between ski instructor associations towards mutual recognition of national systems underpinned by EU legislation. The consequence of this garbled understanding was a BASI strategy that I think did not serve their entire membership very effectively.
However, all that is now water under the bridge as Brexit effectively closed the door on anything resembling the career path for UK citizens who wished to follow a career in Snowsports along the lines that they had grown used to seeing. Now, the best route is to gain EU residency in an Alpine nation or EU citizenship, and follow the qualifications ladder of an EU country, perhaps the Dutch or the Irish, as you say, but any of them will do. Of those two challenges, the residency/citizenship is simply not an option for the majority of UK citizens - passing the exams is the relatively easy part.
Of course, this isn't just a ski instructor issue for Brits. There are related issues for any UK citizen who would like to work in the EU, in all sorts of jobs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Or Switzerland |
I had assumed that CH would become the new natural home for BASI L3 L4 instructors but after chatting with a Swiss ski school director the door has slammed shut for working rights in CH as well. Without getting into the legalities, Brit instructors currently residing in CH are looking good but should you wish to work in CH in future you need to apply for a visa and these are VERY limited AND you need to have a uni degree. My contact, who understands the system well, was very pessimistic for the working rights of newly qualified Brits going forward.
One possibility for Brit L3's is to work towards the ISIA speed test and renamed EMS to complete the BASI L4 ISIA card. This in turn will may get you a CH Patente through equivalence.
Annoying for me personally, I had lobbied BASI very hard 6 years ago to offer a dual "exit" at L4 depending on the territory one wished to work in. ET for FR/IT/AU and ISIA speed test for AUS/Japan/ROW. The old corrupt regime said it would "confuse" the market. Subsequently, the powers to be at IASI they thought it a great idea and have been doing just this for 5 years with their L4 award.
I recon BASI will move main base of operation back to Andorra as it was in the 80' and 90's and do a lot of their courses there. Will be interesting to see how the Austrians react and if they will boot out all the courses in Tux.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@davidof,
BASI is a bit muddled on their members being able to enter the CTT. Pragmatically their advice to EU citizens who are BASI members to switch associations for EU citizens makes sense.
From the Delegated ACT - Even though the CTT would be only organized by participating and capable Member States any national of the European Union can participate regardless of whether the Member State of nationality is a participating Member State. Consequently, the Regulation will abolish the nationality-based discrimination that previously existed within the framework of the Memorandum.
British citizens are no longer allowed to enter the CTT (renamed combined Eurotest and EMS). Prior to the Delegated Act IASI members were not allowed to enter the ET as they had not signed up to the MOU which predated the DA.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 8-05-21 8:57; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I know of British and ROW nationals with L3/L4 licenses from non EU associations (Canada for instance) who were not allowed to enter the ET. |
This is the bit which confuses me now. Prior to the Delegated Act, the Eurotest was essentially organised by the various national ski instructor associations. It "belonged" to them, so they could set admission criteria for the test, including being a member of one of those organisation to gain admission to the test as well as a nationality requirement. However, with the Delegated Act the Common Training Test (which is how we should refer to it, as technically the Eurotest no longer exists) "belongs" to the EU, even if it is administered in broadly the same way as previously. It would be an interesting test of law if a BASI member with an EU passport challenged the administration of the CTT if they were prohibited from accessing it despite being an EU citizen (although NB my previous caveat about being no lawyer).
In practical terms it is the easiest problem to fix, but inevitably many people will focus on the BASI membership side of the equation rather than the citizenship part of the equation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rob@rar, crossed post, I amended that quoted statement as that only applied to the ET during the time of the MoU. The Delegated Act changed that in 2019 as you rightly point out.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rob@rar, Can of Worms or Pandora's Box. That is the problem with all BASI's posts on post-BREXIT matters. Almost all have subsequently proven to be incorrect or at best, unhelpfull when subjected to a little more scrutiny.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @rob@rar, crossed post, I amended that quoted statement as that only applied to the ET during the time of the MoU. The Delegated Act changed that in 2019 as you rightly point out. |
Yes, that's right. Lots of people are going to look at this through the lens of the Eurotest. I don't think that's going to be especially helpful as the Eurotest no longer exists. The think which replaces it, the Common Training Test, might look very similar but in important ways is very different, not least of which is that it now has a legislative basis.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| @rob@rar, Can of Worms or Pandora's Box. That is the problem with all BASI's posts on post-BREXIT matters. Almost all have subsequently proven to be incorrect or at best, unhelpfull when subjected to a little more scrutiny. |
As I said above, I think BASI (and many BASI members) have been "a bit garbled" on Brexit-related matters for some time, which I have said in public and private to BASI on more than a few occasions. However, in this particular case, I think their update to members on 5th May was entirely accurate, even if the most pertinent facts were somewhat obscured by their attempt to put a gloss on it rather than paint the entirely stark picture for what it is.
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Back to the OP, this is "good" news for British Ski Instructors already qualified and recognized, although it may stop them moving country so easily. It will mean less competition going forward from English speaking instructors. Trebles all round.
> Of course, this isn't just a ski instructor issue for Brits. There are related issues for any UK citizen who would like to work in the EU, in all sorts of jobs.
The easiest route now would seem to be to get none seasonal work in the EEA country you intend to instruct in then go through one of the EEA associations to qualify as an instructor. There will still be demand for ex EEA labour. My firm employs North Africans in IT positions all the time although the French work permit system is a hurdle.
I would suggest the BIG hurdle now for Brits in general (not ski instructors) is neither qualifications nor right to work but language. I imagine that most Brits wanting to go abroad to work will head to North America, Australia or NZ where this is not an issue and the job marketplace is a lot more open than the EEA countries.
I think someone posted the Swiss work permit rules previously, is it something like 5000 work permits to be issued per year ? So probably aimed at filling skills shortages.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 8-05-21 9:46; edited 1 time in total
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| davidof wrote: |
| Back to the OP, this is "good" news for British Ski Instructors already qualified and recognized, although it may stop them moving country so easily. It will mean less competition going forward from English speaking instructors. Trebles all round. |
This is true, although for some the (current?) restriction on working only in their country of residence could be a problem for their business model. But for those who have their UK qualification already recognised in the EU's new system and already have a claim to residency in an EU country (or a claim to EU citizenship) then you are right to say they will face no further competition from those who are following in their footsteps but do not meet those criteria. The door has been closed, the ladder has been pulled up, etc...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| @rob@rar, What advantages will being a member of the Irish association give you? |
Possibly make the process of qualification recognition (started pre-Brexit) a bit easier, but that's not the reason I joined the association (which was before the Brexit referendum). I joined because I liked the model they were developing for training and qualifications, and I wanted to train with some of their Trainers. Not as a replacement for my BASI membership, which I still keep, but as an additional source of information and inspiration. I'd join the Canadian association for the same reason if the logistics were a bit easier.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My reading of that was that it was only about coaching and competition for national team athletes, rather than more general instruction.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@ecureuil, It isn't just national team athletes, it would apply to club racers too.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 8-05-21 22:44; edited 1 time in total
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@rob@rar, is this likely to affect your overseas courses @ Insideout Skiing?
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
... another #brexit-dividend.
Career ending for many Brit ski instructors unless you wish to work in Aviemore |
Not career-ending as those who have already passed the Common Training Tests will not lose that certification. Perhaps more accurate to say “career-not-starting”. |
if the UK cant negotiate a right to work for UK citizens then it may be career ending.
.... at best they will be able to work 90 days per winter (tbc).
not all BASI instructors are permanently based in alps year round.
many of them have UK based families or summer businesses.
if you pay tax in UK then applying for residency very tricky.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
BASI are floundering a bit here and it is not entirely clear what their raison d'être is now. |
Al explained clearly to members here
: https://blog.basi.org.uk/brexit-follow-up/
BASI want to maintain access to CTT / Euro-Test for members but were told that would not be possible.
Another : #brexit-dividend 
Because the UK is no longer part of the EU, if you are a British Citizen, regardless of what association you are a member of, you are not permitted to enter the CTT (CTT; formally known as the Eurotest). This is because this test is a fundamental aspect of the Delegated Act, an Act regulated by the EU, and applies only to EU Citizens due to it allowing Right of Establishment across all EU states as a ski instructor. We have also received confirmation that any BASI members with an EU passport are also not permitted to enter the CTT.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| I imagine that most Brits wanting to go abroad to work will head to North America, Australia or NZ where this is not an issue and the job marketplace is a lot more open than the EEA countries. |
To get a visa for such nations you generally need to be:
1) under 30 and applying for a one off 12 month young persons work visa.
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2) hold L3/ISIA and considerable relevant work experience.
For most UK citizens who don't live near mountains #2 is going to be a chicken & egg going forward.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Haggis_Trap, "We have also received confirmation that any BASI members with an EU passport are also not permitted to enter the CTT."
I am not sure about that statement. EU citizens ARE allowed to enter the CTT, possibly not through BASI as THEY don't have the right to place anyone in a test. I don't believe an EU national needs the blessing of a national training body to enter a CTT as was the case with the ET.
Only of interest to a very small proportion of BASI members who happen to be EU nationals.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
@Haggis_Trap, "We have also received confirmation that any BASI members with an EU passport are also not permitted to enter the CTT."
I am not sure about that statement. EU citizens ARE allowed to enter the CTT, possibly not through BASI as THEY don't have the right to place anyone in a test. I don't believe an EU national needs the blessing of a national training body to enter a CTT as was the case with the ET.
Only of interest to a very small proportion of BASI members who happen to be EU nationals. |
Agree - the statement is clumsy.
It should read that BASI itself is unable to submit members, even with an EU passport.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| I imagine that most Brits wanting to go abroad to work will head to North America, Australia or NZ where this is not an issue and the job marketplace is a lot more open than the EEA countries. |
To get a visa for such nations you generally need to be:
1) under 30 and applying for a one off 12 month young persons work visa.
or
2) hold L3/ISIA and considerable relevant work experience. |
Frankly, I doubt I'll be asked how fast I can ski a timed slalom when applying for an ambulance drivers job in Melbourne, Haggis.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm (possibly foolishly) starting my instructor qualifications at the end of this month, but with IASI. One of the key factors for IASI not BASI was that it would still be recognised going forward by the EU. How i'm going to get around work visas is another issue, but i'm hoping (again, probably foolishly) that something will happen in the next couple of years that'll allow me to do some instructing outside of the UK and in Europe. At 30, age isn't on my side when it comes to working holiday visas!
Fingers crossed, although my faith in the government isn't high.
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| swskier wrote: |
I'm (possibly foolishly) starting my instructor qualifications at the end of this month, but with IASI. One of the key factors for IASI not BASI was that it would still be recognised going forward by the EU. How i'm going to get around work visas is another issue, but i'm hoping (again, probably foolishly) that something will happen in the next couple of years that'll allow me to do some instructing outside of the UK and in Europe. At 30, age isn't on my side when it comes to working holiday visas!
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I doubt anything positive will happen regarding FoM in the short term, that's largely what Brexit was about curtailing.
However according to the UK Snowsports stuff I posted above you should be able to do some limited "coaching" abroad for a "club" (aka teaching) except in France.
I see IASI are pretty geared up for people swapping into their system
https://iasisnowsports.ie/education/iasi-equivalence-conversion/
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| davidof wrote: |
| ...However according to the UK Snowsports stuff I posted above you should be able to do some limited "coaching" abroad for a "club" (aka teaching) except in France. |
That specifically mentions coaches / instructors "contracted and paid in the UK", who presumably then travel with their team/club/athletes to the alps for a few weeks. It doesn't seem to fit well for anyone wishing to base themselves overseas and pick up / get paid for work there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| It doesn't seem to fit well for anyone wishing to base themselves overseas and pick up / get paid for work there. |
No of course not.
The only pathway to what you are talking about would appear to be to get residency first in a country where that gives you the right to work (as is the case in France).
For that you probably need to speak the language and be in a profession where you can get a work permit. Again back to France why would my firm hire a Brit when we can find qualified North Africans who also have some of the culture and the language skills and are probably cheaper to hire. Note I'm talking about any job, not ski instructors here. I'm looking for a way in.
Maybe someone sees another route?
I think Brits will still go and live and work abroad and even emigrate but not so much to EEA countries.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Or Switzerland |
I had assumed that CH would become the new natural home for BASI L3 L4 instructors |
It seems to be even more complex depending on the canton with some requiring professional qualifications issued by an EU or EFTA based organisation.
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FAQ
