 Poster: A snowHead
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Has anyone tried/tested these? Looking for reviews or feedback. Allegedly they providing "MCL, ACL and meniscus friendly skiing — without pre-release."
They are expensive as &@%$ which may dissuade buyers and inhibit/slow their adoption.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I reckon any tester must have experienced a significant “pre-release” as I don’t think deliveries are due till 2023!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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so the (only) blog post is from June 2016, promising deliveries in 2019 ... site currently suggesting 2023 with no firm idea of delivery prices ...
And big clams made about problems that seem mechanically tricky to prove ...
Not convinced they'll be in your local ski shop any time soon.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
... Plus the guy sounds a bit like a paranoid fruitcake
... don't ski like a dick and learn how to fall I'd suggest are largely enough rather than relying on some magic binding. |
I've some experience in doing technical diligence on companies looking for investment, so I took a quick look at this and the predecessor "kneebindings" product.
They appear to be essentially the same product and the same sales pitch.
There's an older US patent but nothing specific for the newer branding and of course US patents are awarded for perpetual motion machines so have no value to me until tested.
The developer's prose style can be seen in a thread on Snowheads both incognito and as himself.
There are people on Snowheads who claim to have used his earlier "kneebinding" product.
The kneebindings site makes multiple specific and fantastic claims, for example they state that Michael Decker of the University of Denver Department of Mechanical
and Materials Engineering proved these bindings "reduced ACL injuries on skis by 82.5%". They do not provide references.
A search of Decker's publication history reveals no such publication.
Whatever this is could be used as the basis for a school exercise on statistics misuse. It includes a slightly different claim,
that "Dr. Decker presented the results of his study early in the spring of 2019 at the International Ski Safety Conference in Squaw Valley."
That's online with abstracts. Decker is listed as lead or co-author on multiple papers mostly about tights, none about bindings.
This second claim also seems to be false.
Howell presented something on his bindings to that conference which is similar to another sessions he presented in Finland.
He does not repeat the claims above or make any other extra ordinary claims there.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| philwig wrote: |
Whatever this is could be used as the basis for a school exercise on statistics misuse. It includes a slightly different claim,
that "Dr. Decker presented the results of his study early in the spring of 2019 at the International Ski Safety Conference in Squaw Valley."
That's online with abstracts. Decker is listed as lead or co-author on multiple papers mostly about tights, none about bindings.
This second claim also seems to be false.
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I just couldn't resist following your link to have a look. Contrary to what you say it does look like Dr Decker is a lead author on the paper INJURY RISK REDUCTION OF PROFESSIONAL SKI INSTRUCTORS. Paper presents results of testing an unnamed Novel Ski Binding. Although I agree it much of appears to be about hosiery...
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Kneebindings are excellent bindings having been out for years now and are the only binding on the market with a pure lateral release designed to mitigate against the majority of ACL/MCL injury inducing releases.
The major ski binding manufacturers have been complicit for decades in ignoring this type of injury.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The legal case is a doozy too. You only need to read the first couple of pages to get the general vibe - not about who is right or wrong but how there came to be a putative Howell Ski Bindings.....
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| kerb wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
Whatever this is could be used as the basis for a school exercise on statistics misuse. It includes a slightly different claim,
that "Dr. Decker presented the results of his study early in the spring of 2019 at the International Ski Safety Conference in Squaw Valley."
That's online with abstracts. Decker is listed as lead or co-author on multiple papers mostly about tights, none about bindings.
This second claim also seems to be false.
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I just couldn't resist following your link to have a look. Contrary to what you say it does look like Dr Decker is a lead author on the paper INJURY RISK REDUCTION OF PROFESSIONAL SKI INSTRUCTORS. Paper presents results of testing an unnamed Novel Ski Binding. Although I agree it much of appears to be about hosiery... |
Dude loves his tights. Also appears on a paper led by John Seifert at the same conference. Mind you there's probably more margin in high priced lycra to fund a few studies for some "marketing science".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The legal case is well worth a peek. https://law.justia.com/cases/vermont/supreme-court/2018/2017-239.html
However that's not about the technology itself or the extraordinary claims made about it..
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The paper makes extraordinary claims.
No attempt is made here to actually test the claims made for either tights or bindings; there's no effective control or placebo tests etc.
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| Dude loves his tights |
This "paper" appears to be "published" on the website of the sportswear manufacturer whose tights it advertises,
and referenced by the "kneebinding" manufacturer in their claims. No information is provided as to how the work
was funded or by whom, but I'd bet more than a few pairs of free tights changed hands.
I guess it's not news that some "scientists" can be encouraged to work in product marketing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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wow, thank you for all the feedback and links.
Seems like the majority of access is limited to what can be found online instead of on people's skis.
If anyone hears about a demo set or has tried them out, please mention; in the other feed one of you linked I said to dude I'd be open to test them;
not sure how many pairs are around for him to make that happen, but he'll need to get the product out there for it to be successful.
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I have been using Kneebindings on some of my skis for a few years (as has my other half). I also have Vist and Marker bindings on some skis. Here is my take fwiw:
1. Ski bindings in general clearly do have a problem in that there are thousands of ACL and other knee ligament injuries every year. Ski bindings release in certain circumstances and protect your body in certain ways but the number of knee ligament injuries at all levels of the sport tell me that if it were possible to design a binding that released differently that would be of value. Learning to fall can only get you so far and knee injuries are not restricted to learners.
2. So are Kneebindings the answer? In short, it is very hard to tell. The study you refer to above where Kneebindings were used by some mountain pros and not others seems quite compelling to me but it is all circumstantial really as it is very hard to conduct a scientific double blind trial - too many factors involved. Anecdotally, both my wife and I have had a couple of falls over the years where we suspect the Kneebindings might have saved a nasty injury but there is no way of knowing really.
3. So here is how I look at it - why would or wouldn't you use a Kneebinding? What are the pros and cons? First pros - they work as bindings, they have a good contact with the ski and are solidly made. No better than other good bindings but no worse either. The BIG pro is that they MIGHT save your knees. OK, so why not use them? The cons in my view are: they are quite heavy (but about the same as other heavier, solid bindings. They are not off the scale heavy). They look a bit clunky but that is just my opinion. They have an unusually solid entry, lighter skiers can have trouble clicking into the heel piece especially in deep snow. They MIGHT pre release worse than other bindings. I have not experienced this (and I ski pretty aggressively on and off piste) and suspect it is user error but they do have the lateral release at the heel (only towards the inside) and it seems possible that they could pre release more. They are not cheap.
4. My conclusion: There are no major downsides to Kneebings although there are a few niggles. They MIGHT save my knees. The niggles are a cost for an "insurance policy" for my knees that might pay out and I think that is a price worth paying.
5. My advice: try to demo them. See if you hate them. The main issue is for lighter skiers being able to click into the heel easily enough in my view.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Angus Grizzly, +1
I agree completely with you assessment of this bindings. I bought mine approaching 6 yrs ago. The cost pales to insignificant when compared to the amount the physio has cost for each time I screwed up my knee. It now being in the state that if I cause any further damage to it I will need a complete knee replacement according to the consultant who got me walking after the last incident with it (that was on the hockey pitch).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It is also worth pointing out that your own skiing isn't the only factor - the mountains are infested with nobs. Case in point - a friend of mine got skied into from behind by the guy coming off the chair lift behind her, at the bottom of the off ramp. Result, a slow twisting fall backwards as her skis were pushed forwards from under her, bindings didn't release, sprained knee ligaments (luckily not blown) and curtailed holiday. Would Kneebindings have helped? Dunno, maybe.
BTW - I don't know anything about the Howell vs Kneebinding debate/litigation. I took a look once and life definitely felt too short to wade through all that. If the Howell binding ever comes to market I will take a look at it but it seems to be forever being pushed back.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Angus Grizzly, your friend could have helped herself by clearing the zone. There are often contributory self protection measures you can take re other slope users. Still that sucks more than a self inflicted f up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not really, she needed all the other people in front to clear first as it was New Years in Val D'Isere. As I say, sometimes accidents find you and there is nothing much you can do about it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Angus Grizzly, fair enuff
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Angus Grizzly wrote: |
| ... As I say, sometimes accidents find you and there is nothing much you can do about it. ... |
I think that's true, but the "research" the binding company quotes says all you have to do is wear tights to massively reduce this type of risk.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| philwig wrote: |
| Angus Grizzly wrote: |
| ... As I say, sometimes accidents find you and there is nothing much you can do about it. ... |
I think that's true, but the "research" the binding company quotes says all you have to do is wear tights to massively reduce this type of risk. |
We should certainly all be wearing tights at every opportunity regardless. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Angus Grizzly, no, no, hold ups surely?
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It was quite clear prior to signing anything there were going to be problems and they would have difficulty working together.
Unfortunately this is common.
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FAQ
