 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If it's competing with the Wintersteiger Discman, then the price is probably about right
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Depends what you mean by "steep". For as long as I've been buying skis I've always felt that after their first "service" at a resort shop a pair of skis never seems to feel the same as they did when new. I've previously put this down to "just me being paranoid" but in recent times I've begun to wonder if it is in fact because the edge angles have been changed.
If you have several pairs of skis (i.e. maybe £2000 - £3000 worth at today's prices) and this is a device which will let you precisely tune to the factory angles (or any others you might want) then I reckon I'd be interested even at that price - since I have little confidence in my ability to do it properly by hand  Waxing I can cope with, but edge filing always seems to be a highly difficult task for me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So, do you think it is as good or better than the Wintersteiger Discman, given that they are about the same price.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Personally, I wouldn't touch either with a bargepole
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Neither this nor Wintersteiger's Discman aren't something you want to have. If you really think you need something, then shell out another 1000eur and get Trione. There are another one or two similar machines out there, but those are only decent machines. Things like Wintersteiger's Discman or this Toko thingy are joke, and you really don't want them next to your edges.
If you think 1500eur is too much for this, keep doing it by hand... most of people in World cup are still doing it by hand for everyday's use, and use Trione only to set correct angles.
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Yoda, It you don’t have the confidence to tune your edges by hand don’t use a machine
Have a lesson on ski tuning it’s not difficult
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primoz, Sounds like you have nil or very limited personal practical experience of using a discman I do agree that the discman is not perfect, and by spending a lot time with manual tools or a lot lot more money on a much more expensive tool it is possible to get a better result. Neither the discman or toko is aimed at the WC circuit, so not really a sensible comparison there.
But somehow many skiers manage to use a discman to put a very good, very consistent edge on skis time after time. I've had former austrian world cup racers examine edges prepared with a discman - and they were very impressed with the results. Of course those using it do need to be aware that it is a power tool, and like all power tools it requires practice and care in use to get a good result- otherwise like any other tool you can do some damage.
Crusader, I have no experience of the Toko belt sander to which you like, so I will not give an opinion on it. But if it was my money, I'd buy a discman again.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| primoz wrote: |
| Neither this nor Wintersteiger's Discman aren't something you want to have. If you really think you need something, then shell out another 1000eur and get Trione. |
I have both the D/Man and the Tri - primoz I would be interested to know your viewpoint on why the D/Man is so bad?
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Yes I admit, I have very limited personal experience with Discman... simply because of my past, I have most likely different standards how skis should be prepared. I don't need much to know how certain things behave and work, and I'm sorry to say, but there's simply no chance to get consistent results with tool like this. At least not by my standards.
But now question is, is it good enough for recreational skiing? Most likely it is, but then again, for recreational skiing paying 500eur for tool like this is overkill in my mind. Most likely I still (even nowadays) do more skis then majority of people here, yet I can easily do them by hand. But if someone wants to pay 500eur for gadget like this, feel free to do it no matter what I think about these tools 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Crusader, sorry mate doesn’t look like you are really getting any structured response so will give you my own personal opinion.
Can't help with new Toko product and have asked around and don’t know anyone that has got one, but being a new product I would give it a couple of years until they sort out any ecns (engineering notification changes) that creep up with new products.
The D/Man will give you the same mirror finish as if doing it by hand but it all comes down to cost verses means. If you only ski 3 times a year and own 2 pairs of skis I would say it’s not cost effective. If you have a family of 4/5 skiers with roughly same amount of outings per year then if you wax as well from a cost service point of view you will make your money back over a couple of seasons.
Yes D/Man is expensive but even if you have it for 2/3 years and then re-sell on Skizog or E-Bay you will be able to get a minimum of 50% back on the tool as long as it’s in working condition so not too much money lost - see it as investment.
Mechanical side - I have put this on another post but > after a while the D/Man battery starts to die, it’s worth buying another spare. They should swap to Lithium Ion batteries which is a suggestion I have put fwd as the cold kills these std batteries when working abroad. The edge guides material is not that great and take a set after a while so its important to change these with new guides and take a cut and then measure to make sure correct angle is achieved. I ended up having some guides manufactured out of 'Peak' material which is more robust to stop this issue.
You do need a certain mechanical aptitude with any of these edging machines. You will also still need to 'lap' in the tip and tail due to the profile of the ski and take off the overhang with an ark stone - which is all common sense as well as taking down the side wall unless you want to burn your edge guides..
Also please where a particulate mask for your health - this is a must no excuse.
The boring bit - (bit of info but grab a pillow)
I'm not going to preach to you on what I do and my service experience as I'm not big headed and arnt trying to impress - but I will say, from newbie’s into ski/race servicing (CH1 up to CH2) it’s all done by hand - why - as they need to understand the procedure on what’s involved in setting and finishing off a correct edge angle and not just using a machine.
Hand finish better then machine finish? - Load of dangly bits, when you cut an edge using a hand tool you exert different amounts of pressure depending on stance, pressure etc to name a few. With a machine edger you are only guiding the machine so this inconsistency is taken out. I have measured SG/DH skis on a lab surface table with a DTI gauge and the hand finish was more inconsistent than a machine, but you would expect that because of as I put above the variable 'load' pressure being exerting at the time of cut.
Trione - angle contact surface area is greater which means less chance of any inconsistencies (or wave effect) compared to D/Man. On power regulator which is a massive bonus and also due to the area around the stone compared to the D/Man you get less of a build up which you will find you are cleaning the D/Man after every cut (or you should be..)
However unless you have a workshop situation its not practical to take way (this is aimed more to racers).
Just to summarise Pros and Cons with all i.e. - Hand, D/Man and Tri - Cost verses time management.
PS.
It would be good if guys that post to a response do have the mechanical knowledge to back up why they think a product is bad rather than just slate it without giving a good reason...or maybe its because they don’t know what they are talking about..controversial - I hope so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I admit I'm not really good in mechanical stuff... at least when it comes to mechanical knowledge like schools and education. Yet I still don't need to be mechanical engineer to know what works and what doesn't. I didn't use Discman much, but I did so many skis in my life (including those on WC tour) that I know pretty fast what works and what doesn't. I don't need years of work with Discman to tell how it works. But what the hell... I wrote before already... if someone want to buy it, feel free and don't bother to read my comment.
Another thing... 99% of skis in WC are still done by hand with files, stones, diamonds and ceramics. Trione (and similar machines) are used to get new ski to desired angles more accurately, and especially faster with less effort, which is pretty big deal, when you consider you have 50-150 pairs to do on beginning of season. After that it's hand, even though everyone have these machines nowadays. Main reason is not accuracy but durability. Skis are prepared every single day, even twice a day. With that much of "meat" grinded off every time, skis wouldn't last a single week. And yes, something like Trione takes a helluva lot of edge away with single pass. When you consider race skis have extremely thin edges when new, you can see why this actually matters. But let this be enough from my side.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| For as long as I've been buying skis I've always felt that after their first "service" at a resort shop a pair of skis never seems to feel the same as they did when new. I've previously put this down to "just me being paranoid" but in recent times I've begun to wonder if it is in fact because the edge angles have been changed. |
That the skis don't feel the same is probably a result of the base angle being changed rather than the edge angle being changed. If you don't specify otherwise then most shops will grind the base flat; put an "all-purpose" structure into the skis and set a 90 or 89 edge angle.
I find that the only way* to get a good service is to get a good service in resort is to find a shop with one of those big fancy machines and then to speak directly to the ski tech and specify what base angle, edge angle, structure and (sometimes) wax you want.
* Unless you know someone who is really is an "artiste" with an edge file...
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You know it makes sense.
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| Edge2Win wrote: |
| Hand finish better then machine finish? - Load of dangley bits, when you cut an edge using a hand tool you exert different amounts of pressure depending on stance, pressure etc to name a few. With a machine edger you are only guiding the machine so this inconsistency is taken out. I have measured SG/DH skis on a lab surface table with a DTI gauge and the hand finish was more inconsistent than a machine, but you would expect that because of as I put above the variable 'load' pressure being exerting at the time of cut. |
I don't disagree with the general thrust of that argument Edge2Win, but it does discount the fact that humans become incredibly skilled at things like pressure control with task repetition. So, someone who has diligently done 500-1,000 pairs of skis is likely to have a pretty minimal variability.
On the flip side, I know to my cost that it's possible to cock up "only guiding" a machine - in my case a router.
With all things it's possible to do it exceptionally well and exceptionally badly.
At my skill level of servicing then I agree with you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yoda, to Nottingham you must come
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Poster: A snowHead
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spyderjon, yes, and I'll video record your words of wisdom this time! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Crusader, did you ever buy anything?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've been using the Wintersteiger Discman for as bout 3 months now. I compete in slalom (mainly dry slope) and due to the increased edge burn on dry slopes it means the edges need to be sharpened before and even during each session. When training twice or even thrice a week this results in lots of edge sharpening.
The Discman is fast and pretty much effortless once you get the hang of it, and it gives a razor sharp finish. However it really does wear out the edges very quickly indeed compared to doing it by hand. I hear the Tokyo edge tuner is spring mounted to stop excessive pressure and edge removal?
I mirror what others have said below that it is not something a layman should try without being in the know or having training. And I agree people should learn how to do it by hand first to learn how ski's s and edges work.
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FAQ
