 Poster: A snowHead
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a quick poll - Where in the turn should you be at maximum edge angle ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I didn't know you could 'phone a friend' in your BASI exam 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@skimottaret, how steep?
If we're talking Alaska, that probably complicates things.
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@admin, already passed all the teaching ones 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just before grip fails and you go flying sideways?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| a quick poll - Where in the turn should you be at maximum edge angle ? |
Fall line
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Good question, maybe 2/3rds in ish, in BASI terms towards the end of the 'work' phase?
I'm guessing - what is the answer?
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More seriously, at the point of maximum opposing pressure? the vectors sort of feel to me to be sort of half way between apex and fall line (unless we are talking Alaska).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just before (immediately) you start moving mass to change toward the opposite direction?
In other words, peak load as you start to lever your bodyweight and give it inertia to move it away from continuing radius.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@under a new name, how's it any different in Alaska?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Tubaski, but nope to your edit 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@skimottaret, if you have to ask ...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skimottaret, I suspect max angle is when his skis are across the fall line ... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What does the snow say
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| What does the snow say |
Going on the still image in the link to that Youtube video the deepest part of the tracks are when the skis are in the fall line.
It's interesting to see pre-season race training after the clubs have packed away for the day. All that's left are lots of tracks where the race lanes were running along side each other, where you can see the ruts that the skiers have left as they took the same line around the gates. With the more senior race clubs the ruts were at their deepest slightly above or at the gate (essentially in the fall line), and the more junior race clubs had the deepest parts of their ruts after the gate as the skier stomped on their skis in order to make the line for the next gate.
I think the maximum edge angle depends on the skill of the skier. Too often for me it's after the fall line 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'll get my first 'it depends' out of the way first and assume firm snow of constant gradient and making a carving turn.
Based on those assumptions, it then depends on whether you're making a long carving turn with a pretty constant radius, or a more dynamics slalom turn like the image above (the one with slalom poles in it). In the former I'd say the edge angle is pretty much constant as per @Tubaski's edit, though I suspect the edge angle is slightly greater when you start to carve, then it slackens off a bit. In the latter case it would be at maximum force through the ski, i.e. the middle of the turn when facing down the fall line.
Or maybe I'm making it all up as I go along
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It depends!
Probably at or above the fall line; but depends on the gradient and profile of the snow; skill of the skier and if they are trying to control or conserve speed.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think the maximum edge angle depends on the skill of the skier. Too often for me it's after the fall line |
My first thought was just after the fall line but I think you are spot on with this. Really good gate skiers are so early on the gate. I can't commit that early, it's all in the mind!
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When you don’t need to risk anything greater and it will tend to become less.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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When you are bigging up your run in the bar to your mates later.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Surely it depends on what you're doing? If you're wanting to start heading slightly back up hill before transitioning then it could be different to young Miss Shiffrin doing her slalom.
For the latter I assume just above the fall line, after that you begin transitioning to the other edge for the next turn.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| ... Here is a guy skiing in Alaska, Is the position of his maximum edge angle much different to the photo HaggisTrap put up ... |
Probably.
Caveats: for snowboarders things may be a little different; it depends.
The base is briefly flat at the point of transition from one edge to the other,
so there are two fixed points where the board and snow are in the same plane, at each end of each turn.
There are as many shapes to the graph between those as there are types of turn. For example:
- if you're doing a big Eurocarve then the whole focus is to get the edge high as soon as possible and maintain it as long as possible. The graph is broad and flat for those.
- For powder turns, the edging is more subtle and pressure is applied more gently as the surface won't support the same range of loads as hard piste. There's also no slalom gate, although riding trees can be a bit like that. That's your AK case, although they don't do trees there. The actual shape of the graph depends on what type of turn you're doing again.
- For general riding, the shape of each turn type is different. For example you may tighten the board's curve (increase edge angle) at the end, or focus on more rounded turns.
- I'm no racer, but I would imagine that for SL the turn shape would be very much planned and controlled in relation to the gates..
Short answer: I think that the angle is going to peak where the centripetal force is greatest, at the peak of the turn.
Precisely where that is relative to the end points of the turn depends on what type of turn it is.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'd say probably somewhere after the fall line for most of us but for gates it could well be at or above the fall line as you're trying to keep up your speed and don't want to be fighting against your downhill progress.
(which might be more or less what @SnoodlesMcFlude just said)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I can't help feeling that gates are a bit of a red herring because the answer would be the same regardless of whether it's a gate or any thing else you are going around such as your pole plant.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry. For 'Gates' I meant racing through gates. I didn't bother to mention the 'racing' bit as I thought it would probaby be understood.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's only 2 answers Shirley, either too late or not early enough
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| It's interesting to see pre-season race training after the clubs have packed away for the day. All that's left are lots of tracks where the race lanes were running along side each other, where you can see the ruts that the skiers have left as they took the same line around the gates. With the more senior race clubs the ruts were at their deepest slightly above or at the gate (essentially in the fall line), and the more junior race clubs had the deepest parts of their ruts after the gate as the skier stomped on their skis in order to make the line for the next gate. |
I feel that ruts are caused by pressure not edge angle. Kids don't have the leg strength to reduce the pressure on the skis as fast as good adults.
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| rjs wrote: |
| I feel that ruts are caused by pressure not edge angle. Kids don't have the leg strength to reduce the pressure on the skis as fast as good adults. |
Sure, but there's a relationship between pressure and turn radius.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Tubaski, @under a new name, A lot of people assume that it is at the "end" of the turn when the skis are across the fall line but imv it is as per @Haggis_Trap, surmised, in the fall line. Doesn't really matter how steep the slope is or if it is Alaskan powder. Good skiers (who aren't park n riding/ ) will find max edge angle, and, usually max pressure at that point in the turn.. Really good racers may impulse the ski above the fall line to create pressure to propel them down the hill so find max pressure above the fall line.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @Tubaski, @under a new name, A lot of people assume that it is at the "end" of the turn when the skis are across the fall line but imv it is as per @Haggis_Trap, surmised, in the fall line. Doesn't really matter how steep the slope is or if it is Alaskan powder. Good skiers (who aren't park n riding/ ) will find max edge angle, and, usually max pressure at that point in the turn.. Really good racers may impulse the ski above the fall line to create pressure to propel them down the hill so find max pressure above the fall line. |
I was just thinking about short carves and cross under. And I THINK this seems right - max edge angle roughly in the fall line and the crossunder and unweighted steer/set up happening across the fall line ready to increase edge angle into the fall line again?
I'm totally self-taught on that so relying on my memory of what it feels like.
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@skimottaret, while I take your point, ending your turn in the fall line and omitting to start a new one might not end well, at a global level ... and any (other) instructor I've ever over-heard talking about "finishing" the turn means, not in the fall line.
Although such things are, of course, relative. F'rinstance, if one considers a race course, where the start and finish are both (as is typical) in the fall line, and one presupposes a whole number of turns, then yes, absolutely, turns start and finish in the fall line.
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Do you "finish" the turn by having max edge angles? Cant speak for other instructors but I teach tipping the skis early to start the turn, increasing edge angle till the fall line and then releasing and flattening the skis by projecting the hip along the line of momentum to set up and transition into a new turn.
The confusion could be that intermediates/early advanced skiers never really find grip/edge angle in the fall line, let alone above it so instructors incorrectly (IMV) talk about "finishing" the turn by trying to find some grip.. In that case I usually talk about "rounding" the turn off but focus on trying to find edges earlier to start the turn earlier and get the hard work done above the fall line...
As one progresses the skier finds edge and grip earlier and earlier in the turn..
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 21-11-20 13:09; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skimottaret,
| Quote: |
so instructors incorrectly (IMV) talk about "finishing" the turn by trying to find some grip
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interesting. liking your thinking. hangover from the old days and old sckool teckn-eek? (and a general lack of grip?)
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| Quote: |
Do you "finish" the turn by having max edge angles? Cant speak for other instructors but I teach tipping the skis early to start the turn, increasing edge angle till the fall line and then releasing and flattening the skis by projecting the hip along the line of momentum to set up and transition into a new turn.
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Pretty much agree with that although I say keep building the edge angle until you feel you have enough direction and I think that is sometimes beyond the fall line (depending on what you are trying to achieve) and I also say to try and use more of the arc length to build that angle (depending on what you are trying to achieve). But yes not holding on to it too long and flattening and releasing the skis towards the end of the turn.
It has been an interesting thread to read, if slightly geeky! 
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