 Poster: A snowHead
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Strong worded statement issued by BASI on statement of the brexit negotiations.
Obviously political in nature - however as it stands hopefully most members would back their stance?
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Dear <member>
During this week's Trainers’ Conference, I gave an update about a Brexit development and told this group what they should expect to see coming from BASI in reaction to it. I would like to share this information with you now.
You should expect to see a more assertive and aggressive media campaign with the aim of raising awareness of the impact of the UK Government’s proposed actions upon BASI Members.The first of a number of articles in which BASI will be mentioned is due for publication in The Sunday Times this weekend; this will be focussed on the topic of qualifications. We are doing our best to protect our members interests and need to shout louder than we have in the past in order to do so.
So, what is the development and what has the UK government seemingly proposed to do? BASI was very recently surprised to learn, despite the regular and frequent contact we have maintained with the Departments of Culture, Media & Sport (DMCS) and Business, Enterprise, Innovation & Skills (BEIS) since the referendum, and with barely 8 weeks to go before the end of the EU withdrawal period, that the UK government has drafted plans to revoke the UK’s participation in the Delegated Act. If they were to do this, it would mean that the UK would no longer benefit from participating in the CTT scheme and therefore, by implication, that those BASI members completing the L4 qualification after the 31st December 2020 would not be able to benefit from automatic recognition of qualifications and the legal right to establish themselves as independent snowsport instructors in the EU.
It cannot be stressed enough that the UK Government did not consult BASI on this decision. Indeed, as is clearly stated in the draft legislative documents obtained by BASI, the UK government did not carry out any analysis on the likely impact of this decision. Whilst it still appears to be a proposal at this stage, revoking the UK’s involvement in the Delegated Act will significantly disrupt the future plans of many aspirant young instructors with their hearts set on a snowsports career in Europe, especially when combined with the current ambiguity over future working rights.
BASI are not prepared to let this happen without putting up a fight. Of course, we have been holding discussions with our EU counterparts in order to set up bilateral agreements to counteract this worst-case scenario, but these will take time to establish, and the outcomes of these are certainly not guaranteed, so our strong preference is that the UK government leave the current qualification legislation in place. We believe that they should then focus on finding a pragmatic solution to travel and working rights within the EU and Switzerland so our members can use the qualifications they currently have or aspire to.
Best regards,
Jim Lister
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Haggis_Trap,
Did you receive this by email? I have seen the article in The Times but have not received this email.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes - recieved by email...
I think it is a good statement : however Brexit affects all members (not just newly qualified level 4).
As it stands no one will be able to work in Alps without EU passport / work visa.
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Sounds like Scotland will have the highest quantity and quality of instructors in the world this season. Another benefit of Brexit!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@stewart woodward, I didn’t get BASI’s email either.
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The BASI guys I know here are all resident year round and going down the Carte de Sejour route so shouldn't be an issue for them. I know that many only spend winters here though and I guess yes it will be a big problem for them going forward.
Another biproduct of the Brexit shitshow.
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@BobinCH,
But how many clients? According to the latest info no-one is allowed to enter Scotland without a good reason
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
@BobinCH,
But how many clients? According to the latest info no-one is allowed to enter Scotland without a good reason |
I assumed it was tongue in cheek.
Much as I love skiing in Scotland it would be virtually impossible to make a career teaching skiing here.
There simple isn't the client base / reliable snow / industry eco-system (even without covid).
Though post-brexit there aren't many options left for BASI instructors...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
@BobinCH,
But how many clients? According to the latest info no-one is allowed to enter Scotland without a good reason |
I assumed it was tongue in cheek.
Much as I love skiing in Scotland it would be virtually impossible to make a career teaching skiing here.
There simple isn't the client base / reliable snow / industry eco-system (even without covid).
Though post-brexit there aren't many options left for BASI instructors... |
Firmly tongue in cheek although Scotland remains top of countries yet to ski. In-laws have a place in Coylumbridge on the ski road to the Cairngorms
Does this ruling include Switzerland? There are tons of Brit instructors there
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I got the email, broadly speaking I welcome the change of tone, but far too little far too late I fear. And as normal they seem focused on the L4s.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Tubaski wrote: |
| I got the email, broadly speaking I welcome the change of tone, but far too little far too late I fear. And as normal they seem focused on the L4s. |
How many L4s do they qualify every year?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm not a ski instructor and I don't know anything about the structure and purpose of BASI. However, I do know that one of the founding principles of Brexit was to end freedom of movement, so on that basis any British citizen who wants to live and work in the EU after the end of the transition period needs to be there already.
On that basis the concerns raised in this letter are four years too late, and the phrase "current ambiguity over future working rights" is wrong. There really isn't any ambiguity. British citizens who already live and work in the EU are protected by the WA. After the end of the transition period each EU member country has its own immigration policies.
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@queenie pretty please, You could be right that the WA MAY help those resident in EU states but I would venture many, if not most jobbing instructors who work within the EU and CH are UK residents and only work seasonally in the EU, paying their taxes in the UK.. If the internal market bill rips up the WA during final negotiations who knows...
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You know it makes sense.
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@skimottaret, yes I understand, so like other seasonnaires are who not resident in the EU they would be subject to seasonal work permit restrictions. My understanding is that ski instructors are a shortage occupation so acquiring seasonal work permits should be easier than it is for bar/hotel staff, etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Surely, this is what they should have said in the run-up to the Referendum? It's a bit pointless stating the downsides of stopping FoM for the ski industry now that we've left. And what's the point of saying now that no Impact Assessment was done before the vote, or at the latest, before the Exit Agreement was finalised?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| msej449 wrote: |
| Surely, this is what they should have said in the run-up to the Referendum? |
I think one or two people might have mentioned it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Positioned very close to the Sunday Times article on the aspirant ski instructors’ problems was another about the lack of Romanian and Bulgarians to pick the daffodil crop in Cornwall. The proximity of the articles sort of implied that unemployed ski instructors should be picking daffodils instead.
Incidentally it also said that she had to do the slalom run in less than 24% of the time of a world cup racer. Is this true? Or did they mean 124%?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
| Or did they mean 124%? |
This.
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@msej449, this current complaint is not about freedom of movement but recognition of qualifications.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| ... one of the founding principles of Brexit was to end freedom of movement ... There really isn't any ambiguity.... |
This.
However unless I'm reading this wrongly, the issue is that the EU people are not going to recognise the badges BASI sells, which is a different issue.
If the UK's war with Europe results in BASI qualifications being valueless there, they have lost a significant part of their purpose.
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This is a tragedy for many small businesses across the EU. Even worse for all those who have invested tens of thousands in BASI qualifications and not quite made it yet. 
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| @skimottaretMy understanding is that ski instructors are a shortage occupation so acquiring seasonal work permits should be easier than it is for bar/hotel staff, etc. |
Curious as to where that may be? any links or further intel ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| @skimottaretMy understanding is that ski instructors are a shortage occupation so acquiring seasonal work permits should be easier than it is for bar/hotel staff, etc. |
Curious as to where that may be? any links or further intel ? |
A work permit is sod all use if your qualifications are not recognised...
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Just a few more minor Brexit chickens coming home to roost....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@skimottaret, sorry nothing official. Just the knowledge that ski schools in this region are pretty much always looking for instructors, but with Austrian qualifications of course. I've known a few Kiwis who have worked here, they get seasonal work permits but they already have Austrian ski instructor qualifications.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Really what's the point? Anyone who has thrown a penny at BASI qualifications with the hope of working in the EU since June 2016 was potentially pissing money down the drain unless they were prepared to move there permanently.
Too little too late. They should have bern at Westminster everyday lobbying. Just a microcosm of how deluded Brexit is - screwing everyone
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@Dave of the Marmottes, The previous administration spent all their time lobbying the ESF and other fellow ski instructor associations rather than the UK government. Back in 2013-15 I recon I personally spoke with "our man" in BIS who led the department in the negotiations as a general concerned citizen more than our previous chairman. I can say that as he told me so.....
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You know it makes sense.
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@philwig, You are correct and it isn't just the lack of EU passport that will stop Brits working in the EU. Even with the very slim chance that some countries MAY offer working visas they could individually or collectively decide that BASI qualifications are "third country" should we not get recognition of qualifications as part of any deal (the news story would suggest that ski instruction has been thrown into the negotiation bin) and are not recognised. As a president even before Brexit that was the case for Brits as EU citizens not having their top level certs from Canada, NZ, Aus, USA etc not recognised.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| but they already have Austrian ski instructor qualifications. |
Yip, and BASI isn't currently worth a whole lot in most of Austria unless you are at L3 or higher AND have gotten your Austrian equivalence to Lands (I have done that)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| @skimottaret, sorry nothing official. Just the knowledge that ski schools in this region are pretty much always looking for instructors, but with Austrian qualifications of course. I've known a few Kiwis who have worked here, they get seasonal work permits but they already have Austrian ski instructor qualifications. |
They're after instructors for peak weeks, not necessarily the whole season. Work permits for instructor jobs in Austria are few and far between going by the experience of some people that I know, and you'd have to be at least a Landes (lvl 3).
Working in Austria with a lvl2 is more than possible, plenty of people do it, you just have to apply for a Bescheid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skimottaret, has /actual/ recognition of BASI changed much since I worked in Wengen in 2007-8-9?
They certainly didn't care THAT much for BASI.. They recognised a BASI colleague's skill&experience, but not in pay... He increased his pay by passing Kinderlehrer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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dont know about Wengen specifically but loads of BASI people work in CH quite happily though at L2 and L3. They are valued a whole lot more there once they get their Swiss Patente or Brevet.. (BASI L3 + a conversion course and ISIA speed test). I have lots of friends who have gone down that route and are working full seasons.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yeah that's what I meant... You can work fine on Basi - but you're only valued as such once you pick up the Swiss (or Austrian, that did value that) equivalents...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This statement from BASI is a bit odd. Apart from the fact that it gives the impression that they have only just awoken from a pre-Referendum sleep, to complain that
| BASI wrote: |
| the UK government has drafted plans to revoke the UK’s participation in the Delegated Act. |
is not really helpful. Delegated Acts (and there over 1200 of them, so they are only talking about ... Regulation 2019/907) are agreements between EU Member States, so the UK government doesn't really have any choice but to withdraw. And even if there was a way in which it didn't have to, it wouldn't help BASI's case. The Act would still only apply to citizens of EU states, so from 1 January the only people that could benefit would be the few, if any, EU (non-UK) citizens who hold the BASI L4 qualification - certainly not the majority of BASI members.
At this stage they surely ought to be concentrating on whether / how instructors from Norway, Switzerland etc (who similarly aren't covered by the Delegated Act) are able to work in the EU, and pushing for similar arrangements.
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@ecureuil, Agreed, I can only think that Jim was somehow hoping that BASI L4's would somehow continue to get automatic recognition via the DA post transition period and they could still sell courses with an aspirational goal for for L4's getting automatic recogition and therefore enhancing their ability to obtain working visas...
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @ecureuil, Agreed, I can only think that Jim was somehow hoping that BASI L4's would somehow continue to get automatic recognition via the DA post transition period and they could still sell courses with an aspirational goal for for L4's getting automatic recogition and therefore enhancing their ability to obtain working visas... |
^ qualification at any level is meaningless without a right to work...
brexit should be viewed by BASI as disaster for all levels of instructor.
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@Haggis_Trap, No doubt, but as a last gasp for BASI running courses in Europe they might have been hopeful of future L4's getting working visas for Brits in places like CH, IT, AU etc.. France will most likely be toast...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As someone looking on from the outside I have been amazed that so many folk in the UK still dont realise the implications of all this, there has been a naive belief that "something will be sorted". This (presumably linked to the above statement) is in the Guardian this morning https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/22/british-ski-workers-set-to-lose-seasonal-jobs-after-brexit . It has been absolutely clear for a number of years what will happen whenever the transitional period ends, no point in complaining now when the transition period ends in weeks. It is not just the travel industry, my business revolves around events. Up until now many of the individuals and companies working on large events around Europe have been UK based (it helps being a native English speaker) but it has been clear that this will come to an end. However pretty much all UK folk seem to think that it will be sorted in someway. it wont, not only work permits and visas but other issues like qualifications no longer being recognised. Not just ski instructors but for example UK electricians will not easily be able to work in France or Spain. It is not just some theoretical issue where if you dont get caught no problem, public liability insurance will not be valid as you will not be working legally. This clearly has implications both for individual's personally and for anyone employing them. From a Health & Safety point of view there is a clear duty for employers to ensure that employees comply with the various regulations wherever they are being employed that includes work permits and qualifications.
I am sure if you a small outfit running one chalet or similar you will be able to ignore this for a while (or at least until you get caught) but for bigger companies that is not an option, never has been.
One other thing to point out. The major competitors of our business have been UK companies, despite finding this personally uncomfortable, the bald economic fact is that it is in our business interests for UK based individuals and companies to be excluded from our main business markets. The same applies to UK folk in the ski industry who have made their homes in France, Austria etc. If most brits are excluded from working in the resorts it will be better economically for them. Sad but unfortunately true.
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FAQ
Funnily enough, I think they are both Brexiters 
