As many have commented, it's a bizarrely premature decision and thousands will be gutted about it. The daytime Ski Train was direct, comfortable and could knock the spots off flying or driving to the Tarentaise. And if you could bear sitting up all night and the over-bright lighting, the overnight gave you two extra days on the slopes.
I'm starting this new thread to highlight a few things that might be useful or at least heartening:
1. There are alternatives to get to the Alps by train. But none direct from the UK, so I'm not suggesting they are comparable.
2. If you accepted a voucher from Eurostar for a cancelled Ski Train in March or April. You will have received and email from Eurostar suggesting that you use this voucher on one of their other routes. What they haven't told you is that YOU CAN SWAP YOUR VOUCHER FOR A MONETARY REFUND - in accordance with European passenger law. More about that later.
3. Snowcarbon (I'm founder of it), Protect Our Winters, Ski Flight Free and SaveOurSnow are tomorrow launching a campaign to get Eurostar to reverse its decision. Call us unrealistic optimists if you will, but we will aim to get the whole of the ski industry to come together get Eurostar to see sense.
@Daniel Snowcarbon, Good luck, its weird how they have done this so early. It would be better if Eurostar explained why they have done it.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Today, Eurostar emailed voucher-holders (who had ski trains cancelled in March or April, for example, due to the corona pandemic) with the following message:
“We’re writing to let you know that we unfortunately won’t be running our ski trains during the 2020-21 winter season. We’re sorry to get in touch with such disappointing news.
“This is a decision we’ve made with a great deal of sadness. It’s been an absolute pleasure to take thousands of travellers direct from St Pancras to the Alps over the years. But in the wake of the coronavirus and a challenging travel market, we’ve had to make some changes to our services, focusing on our main routes with the highest demand.
“We appreciate that this news comes at a time when you might’ve been considering using your eVouchers to book another trip on this route. You can still use your eVouchers to travel on any of our other routes instead, including our direct trains to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Disneyland® Paris. Head over to eurostar.com if you need a little destination inspiration.
“We hope you’ll accept our apologies and understand our reasons for making this decision.”
What Eurostar FAILED to tell voucher holders is that they are eligible for a monetary refund if they wish.
To be absolutely sure of this, I emailed the Eurostar Press Office this afternoon.
My question to Eurostar:
“Am I correct that a skier who wants a monetary refund instead, can request one, in accordance with European passenger law? I’m sure you are aware, but for reference: Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007 on Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations (“PRR”). This is a weblink to it: (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2007:315:0014:0041:EN:PDF)”
Eurostar’s response:
“Those that had accepted vouchers from last season’s cancellations, with the expectation that they could use them next year, can of course contact us for a refund. The best way for travellers to contact us is by using this form.
https://help.eurostar.com/email?lang=en#/
“We were not able to put a link because this is not a process which can handled automatically because these customers have already accepted and arranged for their previous compensation to be issued as a Voucher (rather than requesting a refund when their train was cancelled). It is a fraud protection measure to ensure that travellers aren’t able to request both a voucher and refund from a single booking.
“As always our customer team are very happy to deal with individual requests and we would encourage customers to contact us using the form on our website.”
Why on earth didn’t Eurostar didn’t make that clear to customers in the first place?
@Daniel Snowcarbon, why do you care? It’s not a public service.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Isn't Eurostar insolvent anyway? I'd imagine COVID and Brexit to be the final nails in the coffin in that case.
After all it is free
After all it is free
telford_mike wrote:
@Daniel Snowcarbon, why do you care? It’s not a public service.
I kind of think it's a good thing when skiers can get their money back if they need it, especially at a relatively tough time economically. Some people might need the cash and not realise that they are eligible for a refund. Or to flip the question around, why wouldn't you care?
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queenie pretty please wrote:
Isn't Eurostar insolvent anyway? I'd imagine COVID and Brexit to be the final nails in the coffin in that case.
@Daniel Snowcarbon No need to apologise for trying to help people and also challenging a strange decision. Thanks
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It seems an odd decision in the very year when people may not be comfortable flying and looking into alternatives. Add in the fact there will be significantly reduced services from budget airlines as well.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
orange wrote:
It seems an odd decision in the very year when people may not be comfortable flying and looking into alternatives. Add in the fact there will be significantly reduced services from budget airlines as well.
but if they can only have 25% capacity because of social distancing, its a non starter unless french gov. is going to subsidise them
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Daniel Snowcarbon, Signed and shared, good luck.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Mr.Egg wrote:
orange wrote:
It seems an odd decision in the very year when people may not be comfortable flying and looking into alternatives. Add in the fact there will be significantly reduced services from budget airlines as well.
but if they can only have 25% capacity because of social distancing, its a non starter unless french gov. is going to subsidise them
but we are assuming the same rules will be in place is 6+ months time.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
As I understand it, the transit of trains has to be booked quite some time in advance by the operator so I can understand the early decision to pull out.
However, it is disappointing to see the service axed as it was always full when we used it and worked well. It may have been a short-sighted move as if air travel is still restricted come booking season, the loss of this will impact.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I got the email about this yesterday too. Very disappointing. Have signed the petition and shared on facebook.
I should have used the train last winter but missed out due to the French strikes. I had been waiting for release of the tickets to book up for next year, and had noted that they usually go on sale second or third Wednesday in July. I'm sure that has something to do with the timing here, yesterday was second Wednesday this month.
Unless we do get a reversal of decision, I guess I'll be looking to go via Paris, but I saw somewhere else on the Snow Carbon Website that the a lot of the sleepers from Paris were also cancelled, but I couldn't tell when that was done.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
thefatcontroller wrote:
Mr.Egg wrote:
orange wrote:
It seems an odd decision in the very year when people may not be comfortable flying and looking into alternatives. Add in the fact there will be significantly reduced services from budget airlines as well.
but if they can only have 25% capacity because of social distancing, its a non starter unless french gov. is going to subsidise them
but we are assuming the same rules will be in place is 6+ months time.
It's called planning.
I am sure they would have run multiple scenarios based on different criteria & come to the conclusion its best not to run the service. Could be for cost reasons, could be for capacity, could be because the train will be better used elsewhere on a more profitable route, etc. as well as unknown issues re the border because of a 2nd wave, etc.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
RedRob wrote:
I got the email about this yesterday too. Very disappointing. Have signed the petition and shared on facebook.
I should have used the train last winter but missed out due to the French strikes. I had been waiting for release of the tickets to book up for next year, and had noted that they usually go on sale second or third Wednesday in July. I'm sure that has something to do with the timing here, yesterday was second Wednesday this month.
Unless we do get a reversal of decision, I guess I'll be looking to go via Paris, but I saw somewhere else on the Snow Carbon Website that the a lot of the sleepers from Paris were also cancelled, but I couldn't tell when that was done.
We used the sleepers a few years back to Bourg but i think they are all cancelled now.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
RedRob wrote:
... I saw somewhere else on the Snow Carbon Website that the a lot of the sleepers from Paris were also cancelled, but I couldn't tell when that was done.
3 or 4 years ago. At that time the only overnight ski destinations left were Briancon and La Tour de Carol (for Andorra). But even they were probably hanging on by a bit of a shoestring, and not sure if they are still running now.
@ecureuil, Briancon was running last season but perhaps not with the same frequency as before. The service was suspended for a while due to problems on the track further down the line.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
orange wrote:
It seems an odd decision in the very year when people may not be comfortable flying and looking into alternatives. Add in the fact there will be significantly reduced services from budget airlines as well.
If people are uncomfortable flying to the Alps - 1hr15 in a plane, then it seems very unlikely that they'd swap that for 10+ hrs in a train.
It's a shame that this has happened, but this coming ski season is going to be far from normal and I guess Eurostar simply didn't want to risk running this service at a potentially huge loss, depending on capacity restrictions and possible low demand.
My personal hope is that this proves to be a temporary measure and that they are able and willing to run the service again in 21-22.
I'm sure they have a much better understanding of the situation than any of us. If the service is not feasible, it's not feasible regardless of a petition. If they thought there was a good chance of making money they would run the service.
Quote:
Protect Our Winters, Ski Flight Free and SaveOurSnow are tomorrow launching a campaign to get Eurostar to reverse its decision
The POW people are happy enough taking flights and helis when it suits them, typical hypocrisy and virtue signalling. If there is so much demand for eco friendly travel from UK to the Alps how about they put on their own service using electric or hybrid coaches. Lift served resort skiing is never going to be eco-friendly, if you really care about the environment take the train up to Scotland and go touring, problem solved.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
froomie wrote:
orange wrote:
It seems an odd decision in the very year when people may not be comfortable flying and looking into alternatives. Add in the fact there will be significantly reduced services from budget airlines as well.
If people are uncomfortable flying to the Alps - 1hr15 in a plane, then it seems very unlikely that they'd swap that for 10+ hrs in a train.
It's a shame that this has happened, but this coming ski season is going to be far from normal and I guess Eurostar simply didn't want to risk running this service at a potentially huge loss, depending on capacity restrictions and possible low demand.
My personal hope is that this proves to be a temporary measure and that they are able and willing to run the service again in 21-22.
Its not the flying people are not comfortable with, its being in an airport with thousands of people. Airports are not clean the best of times! then you are mixing it up with people from all over the world.
I would be more comfortable on a direct from point A to point B knowing its not going to stop, there is not going to be a high turnover in people getting on/off, etc.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Mr.Egg, Agreed, i'd personally be much happier on a train than a plane and all the hassle at airports, not going anywhere near an airport for the forseeable future.
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boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
get Eurostar to see sense
I'm sure they have a much better understanding of the situation than any of us. If the service is not feasible, it's not feasible regardless of a petition. If they thought there was a good chance of making money they would run the service.
Quote:
Protect Our Winters, Ski Flight Free and SaveOurSnow are tomorrow launching a campaign to get Eurostar to reverse its decision
The POW people are happy enough taking flights and helis when it suits them, typical hypocrisy and virtue signalling. If there is so much demand for eco friendly travel from UK to the Alps how about they put on their own service using electric or hybrid coaches. Lift served resort skiing is never going to be eco-friendly, if you really care about the environment take the train up to Scotland and go touring, problem solved.
A big +1 on both counts.
Have long thought POW is just a bunch of self-promoters, jetting around on other people's money and pontificating about a subject they are actively making worse. Being a POW ambassador and heliskiing seem to go hand in hand.
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I don't think my level of comfort is yet a level where I don't regard both planes and trains as a material risk. Obviously that perception changes the less densely packed they are but that's the same factor which will make Eurostar and flights uneconomic to operate. So I don't know where that leaves me for skiing - chairs facing away from others ok, bubbles and cable cars not so much...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Mr.Egg, @Markymark29, I agree airports are a conundrum if they are busy. But once on the journey I would be more concerned about air filtration. Both BA and Easy state that the air is changed every 3 or 4 minutes in their cabins and passes through HEPA filters. Eurostar state that the air in a carriage is changed every 15 mins, no mention of filters. You then have exposure time of 10 hours v 90 mins, on the other hand you may well have a longer transfer from the airport. Nowts simple!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
froomie wrote:
...If people are uncomfortable flying to the Alps - 1hr15 in a plane, then it seems very unlikely that they'd swap that for 10+ hrs in a train.
There could be a big difference between the quality of air on a plane - which is almost entirely recycled around the cabin , and I'm not convinced has good enough filters to extract virus-sized particles - and that on a train, which at least has the potential to be largely drawn fresh from the outside. Which is particularly apposite now that WHO are suggesting the virus may be airborne.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We have used the direct ski train many times in the past and loved it. I think we first travelled on it in the inaugural season when it left from Waterloo International. For those who are still keen on rail travel for next season I would recommend the following indirect journeys:
La Clusaz/ Le Grand Bornand - Eurostar to Paris then TGV to Annecy where you can get a regular local bus to La Clusaz..and I think Le Grand Bornand too. You can also use this train for places like Les Saisies if you are happy to hire a car at Annecy (as there is no bus to Les Saisies).
Montgenevre, Serre Chevalier and Italian Milky Way - Eurostar to Paris and then TGV to Oulx. There is a regular bus from Oulx to the Milky Way resorts, Montgenevre and Briancon. When we have been to Montgenevre we have stayed at the Novotel Paris Gare de Lyon on Friday night and taken the early TGV to Oulx on Saturday morning. This means you get to Montgenevre at lunchtime and can use the free afternoon's skiing that comes with the six day lift pass.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
I would be more comfortable on a direct from point A to point B knowing its not going to stop, there is not going to be a high turnover in people getting on/off etc.
If coming into contact with people is that much of a concern drive. Coach seems to be similar to train Inthis regard and is still an option. Cable cars/gondolas/bubbles seem like they would be more of an issue in terms of coming into contact with others.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Judging by last ski season a noisy bar is the place you would be most likely to pick covid up as it is passed more when people are speaking loudly/shouting...therefore a quiet train carriage where people are wearing masks is probably is less of a risk than an apres ski bar.
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Poster: A snowHead
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
I would be more comfortable on a direct from point A to point B knowing its not going to stop, there is not going to be a high turnover in people getting on/off etc.
If coming into contact with people is that much of a concern drive. Coach seems to be similar to train Inthis regard and is still an option. Cable cars/gondolas/bubbles seem like they would be more of an issue in terms of coming into contact with others.
And driving is what we are planning to do.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Daniel Snowcarbon, looks like you might get support from the Bourg St Maurice community - they are devastated by this decision, and claim it will impact the region badly with UK skiers being put off the Alps in general, thanks to (a) no availability and (b) bad publicity. I'd drop the tourist office a line see if you can co-ordinate a response.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Only very slightly off-topic, can I thank @Daniel Snowcarbon for his extremely helpful website detailing non-flying ways of accessing ski resorts. Although it isn't convenient every time we have in the past used Eurostar direct, or Eurostar/TGV via Paris, and sources of information have been valued.
Judging by last ski season a noisy bar is the place you would be most likely to pick covid up as it is passed more when people are speaking loudly/shouting...therefore a quiet train carriage where people are wearing masks is probably is less of a risk than an apres ski bar.
I don't disagree. Apres bar is hardly compulsory though. Cable cars/bubbles/gondolas may be necessary to access certain areas. Of course we are yet to see if any kind of restrictions will be in place for these things.
Have long thought POW is just a bunch of self-promoters, jetting around on other people's money and pontificating about a subject they are actively making worse. Being a POW ambassador and heliskiing seem to go hand in hand.
Caroline Gleich is a pow ambassador. 2018 flew out to Himalayas for an expedition. 2019 flew out to Himalayas for an expedition, flew to Europe to watch her fiance swim the channel, and used a helicopter for her wedding photos. They seem completely oblivious to the hypocrisy.
Perhaps the most ironic was Jeremy Jones (pow founder) flying to Europe to film for the shelter movie, of which a big part was about how global warming is affecting the Alps and how the skiers were trying to reduce their carbon footprint.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
Have long thought POW is just a bunch of self-promoters, jetting around on other people's money and pontificating about a subject they are actively making worse. Being a POW ambassador and heliskiing seem to go hand in hand.
Caroline Gleich is a pow ambassador. 2018 flew out to Himalayas for an expedition. 2019 flew out to Himalayas for an expedition, flew to Europe to watch her fiance swim the channel, and used a helicopter for her wedding photos. They seem completely oblivious to the hypocrisy.
Perhaps the most ironic was Jeremy Jones (pow founder) flying to Europe to film for the shelter movie, of which a big part was about how global warming is affecting the Alps and how the skiers were trying to reduce their carbon footprint.
I've got mixed feelings about this - on one hand yes it does seem to contradict what POW is meant to achieve - on the other hand alot of the pro skiers talk about the fact that in order to participate in the sport, travel and to access mountains they need to use airplanes etc. Mike Douglas the skiing "Godfather" is a big advocate for POW in Canada, he launched it there, and he does fly to ski - but alot of the skiers will talk about how they are trying to offset their carbon footprint and they have addressed this quite publicly in their videos, vlogs etc.
I think the thing about POW is that they are not rebellion extinction - and they are not trying to be that - they are trying to use advocacy to push for technology and financial instruments, political will and a cultural change to minimise the impact of climate change. We can all do our small part, but Government Policies will have a much bigger and direct impact.
There is an argument as well to be made on is it really net-zero or should it be "just zero". Greg Hill - "Electric Greg" can be an inspiration to us all!
Jeremy Jones is also pretty front and centre in tv ads for Kayak, a business whose raison d'etre is flogging people flights.
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Quote:
on the other hand alot of the pro skiers talk about the fact that in order to participate in the sport, travel and to access mountains they need to use airplanes etc.
Then don't be a pro skier. It's like someone saying I really want to support animal rights and veganism and then setting up a BBQ restaurant. If you really felt that strongly you would be willing to make that sacrifice. Electric Greg is a great example of what someone can do if they really want.
Let's be honest Jeremy Jones does not need the money, he has a successful company. He lives at Tahoe, and has plenty of skiing in California. Did he really need to take his whole family up to Canada last winter? It just strikes as them preaching one thing and doing the exact opposite.
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The normal SNCF train service is pretty limited at the moment. I'd drive.
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