Edge tuning angles + files

A snowHead

Hi there,

I’m hoping someone technical who DIY services their own skis can help me with a couple of edge tuning and equipment Q’s...

I purchased my first set of skis earlier in the year, after previously renting. They’re 2018/2019 Blizzard Rustler 9s and, from the snow dome time I’ve spent on them, I think they’re brilliant. I’m looking forward to putting the skis through their paces out on to the mountain this season.

Before my first ski week, I need to give the skis a light service. The Holmenkol rub on ski wax I bought with the skis on the shop’s recommendation seemed to last about 5 minutes on artificial snow, with the bases greying after use. My edges also got slightly rusty from me not drying them properly the first time I used the skis.

I’ve decided to start self-servicing my own skis. In part, due to there not being a servicing shop near to where I live. But also because I would like the satisfaction, convenience and eventual cost saving of home DIY + knowing my edges aren’t getting ground down more than necessary in the shop.

I’ve done a fair bit of research reading through the pistoffice.com guides and watching YouTube videos. I have got my head around the base waxing and brushing part and all the tools and equipment I need for this. I’m really struggling with understanding the base and side edge tuning, though.

I don’t want to change the angles, I just want to service and sharpen them. From my snow dome use so far, the edges seemed to have a good combination of grip when on their side, without catching when flat.

Blizzard publish a tuning chart that implies an edge angle of 87.2 degrees with a tolerance of -1 or +2 degrees. I believe this is saying the angle can be anything from 86.2 through to 89.2 degrees:

https://www.blizzardsports.com/themes/blizzard/documents/blizzard_tuning_chart.pdf

I haven’t seen any DIY tools that use decimal places. So, am I right in saying I just need to buy something like this Toko Ergo Race Kit edge tuner and set the file to the 87 degrees mark?:

https://www.snowinn.com/ski-store/toko-ergo-race-kit/41737/p

The above Blizzard tuning chart details a bevel of 0.9 + 0.2 degrees. Is this the base edge angle and, if so, can I just set the Toko Ergo Race Kit to the 1 degree setting and use this?

On the bottom of their website FAQ page, Blizzard have tuning recommendations which say something slightly different. Blizzard classify the Rustler 9s as freeride skis, which come with a category recommended base bevel edge of 1.3. Side edge bevel of 3 degrees (or 87 degrees) with a final result edge angle of 88.3 degrees:

https://www.blizzardsports.com/usa/faq/

To recap, I’m getting confused by all the different numbers, terminology and decimal places. Can I just buy a Toko Ergo Race Kit and sharpen my ski edges at 87 degrees and the base at 1 degree?

The Toko Ergo aRce Kit comes with a medium file, a tuning file (for removing edge damage) and a diamond file for polishing and finishing edges. Without (yet) going down the slightly daunting multi file tuning kits offered by pisteoffice.com, will these three files do the job?

I considered the Toko Edge Tuner Pro. This looks a little easier to use, but is a bit more expensive and doesn’t come with the additional files. When I got my skis, I bought this Holmenkol Ergo Easy on the shop’s recommendation. I haven’t tried using this yet; it doesn’t seem to be able to do an 87 degrees edge angle, nor can it tune the base edge, so it looks to be fairly useless!:

https://www.holmenkol.com/de-de/en_GB/cat/Products-10100/Snow-10068/Alpin-10089/prod/ERGO-EASY-88-89-160013/

Cheers,

Phil

A snowHead

Your skis were mass produced and machine ground so were never accurate to begin with ..its a myth so is alot of diy within this one degree bolly olly....its all talk .

I doubt a diy starter will manage high levels of accuracy with limited tools needed for each type of service application, needing vices, bench ,tool selection and most importantly having zero experience .

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You have options though and everyone has to start somewhere its just that often false belief... is false ecconmy

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What is the difference in skiing experience between edge angles? I have been skiing for 40 years and I have never specified a favourite angle to my servicer or hire outlet. Is be interested to hear of people's experiences. I seem to remember a trend for right and left handed skis in the 90's, with a sharp edge for icy conditions and a blunt one for powder/slush, but it seemed like a load of nonsense.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The difference in skiing experience and between edge angles , servicing etc ...is a Tourist service or using the piste office or similar .

Everyone has a choice you can do what ever you want .
The piste office is one answer at a cost .

I probably did 7- 8 hours straight once or twice in tree powder off chairs but never 40 years

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I dont have the experience to differ between 87 & 88 degrees on my edge or 1 & 0.75 on my base but I do know when I get s@#t service from a shop.
I think your getting to hung up on exact angles, I would use this
https://www.thepisteoffice.com/index.php/edge-angles-wax-data/15-ski-manufacturers-edge-angle-specifications.html 87&1degree. I would buy fixed guides for this not multi angle ones.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@R1DSO, I would call Jon at the Piste Office and explain what you have and what you want to do, I spent a morning with Jon and many hours on You Tube to understand how to do a good job on my skis

I now have confidence in my own servicing and my skis are very enjoyable to use - it was well worth learning

After all it is free

Thanks for the replies.

To clarify the intent of my original post… I’m not trying to make out that I’m an advanced enough skier to be able to tell a big difference between fractional degree changes. I just don’t want to change how the skis are performing currently, or inadvertently change, blunt or ruin the edges due to tuning at an incorrect angle.

From what I’ve read in online tutorials, changing an edge by half a degree or more can majorly impact how a ski behaves. So, I’m just trying to find out if the numbers Blizzard list for the Rustler 9s equate to an 87 degree edge and 1 degree based and if the Toko Ergo Race Kit will do the job keeping these in check.

Unfortunately I’m too far away from the Piste Office for face-to-face tuition. I couldn’t find Blizzard Rustlers on the Piste Office website, but it implies Blizzard as a manufacturer use a 1 degree base and 3 degree edge angle (or 87 degrees), which matches the numbers I was speculating on previously.

So, I think I’ll start with those angles, unless anyone disagrees. I read on the Piste Office that there’s an angle test which involves dong a light file pass over a Sharpie pen mark and, if the file is set at the right angle, the full mark will be removed.

My Toko shopping list (including vises) is currently tallying-up between £200-300, so I’m in the market to buy some fairly reasonable kit, but open to saving money where I can. I would like a tuner with angle options for if my original angles aren’t correct and for potentially maintaining other family members’ skis (with different base and side edge angles) in the future. What’s the advantage of fixed-angled guides, WASHOUT?

I’m thinking I can start with the un-abrasive Toko diamond file as my ski edges are in good shape from snow dome usage only and build up to the more abrasive files when they’re needed after my first ski week and once I’ve got my confidence up!

Cheers,

Phil

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I’d be careful putting a 87 edge angle on free ride skis, usually the lower from 90 that you go the more aggressive they are, but the easier they are to blunt. I think 87 is getting pretty aggressive and mainly used by racers, most people would probably go for 88 to 90, I tend to put an 88 on all my skis, but it’s personal preference. Base angles go the other way, the higher you go from 0 the less catchy they are.

If you want a good finish (better than a standard shop service) you will want to get more than just the files there (diamond files, stones etc. and a file guide that takes different file types) and as others have mentioned vices etc. and you will also eventually need to strip the sidewalls. Also don’t forget to wear a glove, I know lots of racers who have cut through the nerves to their thumbs.

It is not too complicated to do, but depending on how many pairs of skis you have and how often you need to service them, but it does take practice and you may find it cheaper going to a good person to service them. However once you get the hang of it, find what angles you like and have the tools you will never go back to a standard service.

Indoor snow is very aggressive and usually needs a colder temp (harder) wax than the temperature would suggest, a rub on wax will not last long.

If you do sharpen them yourself be careful of sharpening beyond the rocker as they may be one catchy, I made that mistake last year.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

As a side point, the not particularly exact experiences I have had with edges that have been very noticeable are twofold...

Firstly, an annoyance I’ve found with almost all the skis I’ve hired previously is that they’ve caught edges on straight sections of pisted runs. If I wasn’t constantly turning, the edge of one of my skis would catch a groove in the piste and pull suddenly the left or right. This would only happen occasionally, but it was enough to put me a little on edge, especially through fast straights.

I haven’t had a chance to put the Rustlers through their paces on the mountain yet, but they feel a lot more relaxed, less twitchy and less like they are trying to pull me in to a turn constantly vs what I’ve hired before. I’m sure the 94mm waist width helps, but I believe this is also to do with a less aggressive edge angle.

Secondly, the exception to the above was a pair of Elan Amphibios all mountain skis I hired for a cheap week in the Pyrenees last season. These were originally some pretty decent skis, but the pair I was given (from a very tired village Intersport) must have been some of the first Amphibios ever sold and were literally falling apart.

The Amphibios were actually a lot of fun in fresh snow, but had zero edge hold left (presumably because they were so old/worn out) and were a fairly interesting on hard pack and ice. They wouldn’t cut in at all and just slid and accelerated with each turn!

snow reports

@R1DSO, As previously suggested, before you buy anything I would call Jon at the Piste Office, you dont have to of course but he will sell you what works.

Depending on where you are in the country there may be a Snowhead nearby who can give you some tips

You know it makes sense.

@R1DSO, sounds like you are happy with the current set up so want to keep everything as it is which makes sense. I would try the sharpie test with diamond file as you suggest and take it from there. If it indicates around 87 or 88 ok go with it either will be fine. The fixed angle guides are just a bit more precise and easier to work with, most people who do a lot of tuning will use a fixed guide. I have an 87 and 88 but most of mine and families skis are at 87.

I would leave the base edge alone for now if you are happy with the skis. The hire skis you tried were probably twitchy because of a lack of base bevel or hanging burr rather than over aggressive side edge. Changing the base bevel normally has a more noticeable effect than the side edge.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

As said above base angle is generally set and left, you can increase the base angle but cant decrease it DIY (I think it's that way, I always get mixed up)
I don't really buy into the idea 87 degree will blunt quicker my wax goes way before my edges anyway. Whitedots which market them selves as a freeride ski brand initially where 1 and 1 degree but changed to 1 & 3 degree in 12/13 so go figure.
The basic angle sets are simple to use and feel solid in the hand and the ones with wheels/runners just clog up anyway.
Somebody previously mentioned in a thread recently the mini angle set with the mini file and stones blunted quicker so ended up buying the full size kit aswell.

A snowHead

Thank you for the further guidance.

A snowHead

A few passes with a gummy stone to remove burrs isn’t going to do anything at all to your base angles, so it’s fine to do it by hand. WTH taking a gummy with you on holiday as it’s easy to get wee burrs from running over rocks. No real point to buying base guides as you’ll end up needing to get the bases ground in a shop anyway if you change the angles.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Jon sells a CD of YouTube videos. He has sorted the correct ones so you don't get bad advice.

IMHO leave the base angle alone. Be gentle with side edges. More gentle passes rather than one aggressive pass is my preferred way. Edges are very resilient.

I have a fine "top-up" set of files and not the whole.lot. but I DO have a clue.of decent waxes. One for very cold and one for slightly warmer.

My number one purchase is a decent iron.

I hardly touch my edges and get them done once a year by someone that knows what they are doing (Sadly Alain Baxter's shop is no more) just before my trips and simply wax. Unless off course they get a whack on a rock.

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Hi @R1DSO, my preference is also to use an aluminum oxide stone to take off burs. I don't think a gummy stone (basically rubber with an abrasive mixed in) would be effective. Some folk use a diamond file to debur on the basis that 'diamonds are harder than anything else'. My thought is that this may be so but they are set into plastic or aluminum to make the file, so the bur will tend to knock diamonds out of the file - which seems a waste of an expensive file.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@R1DSO, Just my experience to add. I used to have a pair of Rossi B2's when I started skiing and after about three years they flexed like noodles and would not hold an edge on anything approaching icy. So I took the edge angle to 87 degrees and the difference was amazing. Now I have a fairly decent quiver of skis and manage about 90 days per year skiing, add in Kooky's skis and I have about 10 pairs to maintain. I soon found that I much prefer all my skis at 87, from full on race skis to my 120mm fat powder skis. The reason for this is that when the fat skis are off piste the edge angle makes bugger all difference, but if I am skiing back on the pistes and want to go down hard packed steep runs then the more accute angle coupled with a sharp edge makes a fair difference to grip given that the skis are much harder work to begin with on piste.

You can decrease a base angle if you don't like it but it will take off a lot of metal from the edge and potentially shorten the skis life. Saying that, I have an 11 year old pair of all mountain skis and as I have been tuning myself they still have life in them. Shops tend to take off much more metal from the edges than a careful hand tune.

RE: Base angles, I've used 1 degree and 0.75 and I can't tell much difference, these days I stick with 1 for all the skis. I second getting kit and advice from Jon, he knows what he is doing. I just use an angle guide, a fine file and have a few diamond stones, a fine 800 can be used for deburring.

I don't detune tips or tails at all, I want my edges to grip as soon as I initiate a turn but this can be a personal preference. A very sharp edge on the ski tip will certainly show up any issues with technique though Laughing

I ski a fair bit with an ex racer (Europa cup level) and although he knows a great deal about tuning, when he is recreational skiing he skis everything the same, even €1 straight skis with an edge like a butter knife. Don't get too hung up on a perfect tune, just keep them fairly sharp and touch up with a diamond file if they feel a bit blunt.

After all it is free

@R1DSO, there is a rabbit hole of conflicting, confusing and misleading advice about ski tuning on the Internet and on YouTube. Even those of us who DIY tune on Snowheads, if we're only doing our own personal skis, don't have massive amounts of experience compared to a highly motivated and passionate professional like Jon. Just call him up and he will sort you out. You can waste a lot of time (and money) in the hunt for accurate information online.

@R1DSO, good advise from Scarpa IMO. I do 4 sets of skis and two snowboards for my family. As above: don't touch the base edge - just deburr with a diamond file, always 87 on the side edge, don't bother to detune. P-tex any major gashes, wax, scrape and brush.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

This has been really helpful, thank you.

I now have a much better understanding of edge tuning from all the post replies, re-watching the Toko tutorial videos + re-reading the Piste Office online guide (which I initially found slightly impenetrable).

I originally thought that the base and side edges of a ski were like two sides of a filleting knife that both needed to be sharpened. I now get that, if keeping the same edge angles, the base edge doesn’t need to be sharpened at all. I will get a gummy stone, diamond file and alu oxide stone for gently sorting out base edge burrs by hand.

And I now understand that all the sharpening happens on the side edge and some regular light passes with a fine diamond stone should do the trick. In retrospect, it’s kind of strange that the popular entry level edge sharpeners that are easiest to find (like the Holmenkol Ergo Easy I bought on the shop’s recommendation when buying my skis) come with a metal file so rough that it looks like it could grind through a set of prison bars.

I will follow the above approach + lots of waxing when maintaining my skis. And only take them to a shop if the edges get more significantly damaged and I don’t feel confident enough to try and fix the damage at that stage. To that point, I’ll order the Piste Office tutorial DVD, which I see is also available on USB stick.

My carefully curated Toko shopping list timed out on snowinn.com and, given the universal recommendation of The Piste Office, I may try and give Jon a buzz tomorrow and see what he can sort me out with. It looks like the Advanced Tuning Kit with Maplus iron at £195 covers most of the items I had on my original list and everything that I’ll need that has been mentioned here.

Adding on the cost of a vise, the Advanced Tuning Kit is coming out more expensive than the Toko list I had before and for a few less items. Not all the items are directly comparable, but it seems as though Toko are a reputable brand, so it’ll be interesting to hear Jon’s thoughts on how their products compare.

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I have everything that's in the advanced kit minus the ptex and the metal scraper. I use it all. I have 7 pairs in total to service. I had a little adjustable thing in the early 90's for edge angles, but the fixed ones are better for me.

The vice made it so much easier than a workmate. I also have a sidewall remover as I changed angles on my skis to 87, my son wants his stopping at 89 as he skis park a lot. I have 2 edge guides. Also have 2 other brushes for waxing, but of course you don't "need" those.

The metal file is not used often, I do use one pair in a dome, and will wax every couple of trips with a hard wax, and run the diamond over the edges gently.

Also worth getting some soft wax, and some renew wax for cleaning / base prep.

Jon will sort it for you with a custom kit no doubt.

snow reports

Also find this video to be pretty good, although advertising a product the principles are good, caveat, with anything but a hard wax or a "hot scrape", I leave to cool before scraping though.

http://youtube.com/v/pmNdgS5vNzA&feature=youtu.be

Remember you dont have to go all out, you can start with just a waxing the bases (iron, wax, scraper & brush) to start and see how you get on. A vice would be nice but you can DIY something to start with.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Just build my portable workshop...

fold down trestle adjustable legs £27 (ebay)
residue pocket card box (£0)
Basic kit from Jon + mini wax iron £140
Second-hand vice (from fellow SN) £53

The only regret is that I did not realise the basic kit contained the mini tuner instead of the traditional file guide - just b/c I learned with the second but the mini does the job well too. Will upgrade in future.

A snowHead

For many years I used a pair of suction attachment vices from Lidl which I screwed down to my workbench. They held the skis with the bases towards me which was fine for edge sharpening. For waxing I used a workmate bench and a kindling chopping log in the garden to place the skis on. As I am fairly lazy I use Zardoz to give the skis a wipe in the morning, it seems to prolong the wax and really helps with glide. You can apply it lightly into the base prior to waxing, an old race prep trick that doesn't seem to do any harm. I generally get about 4-5 weeks skiing between waxing these days as opposed to my weekly prep when I first started skiing Toofy Grin

A snowHead

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Rock or stone damage case hardens the carbon steel damaged area locally so needs a stone to take the case hardening down before a file can be used .

On the base edge this means some stone work on any damage is required before using a soft alloy iron to wax in resort as any case hardened damage can score the irons base badly.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

I believe it does in practise with the amount of rock damage on steel edges I get which is alot off piste.
A file wont work at all, period ... a stone must be used first .

The component thats added is heat when the carbon steel edge hits the rock
This causes the isolated case hardening its a real bit ch on the base edge .

Piste skiers which this thread is aimed at probably wont deal with this as off piste in rock terrain in dec and jan so isnt a real issue with tuned piste skis only used on piste

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Edge tuning angles + files

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